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Something I'm struggling with is separating out the justifications and excuses I was telling myself at the time of my affairs. Part of affair ownership is not trying to justify what I did, I get that. How do you push past these justifications? They were real at the time. I know I need to get past these to have any hope with getting to the whys and hows.

I know I chose to do what It did, when I write my timeline or think about what I was thinking at the time, this comes over as an excuse. There were lots of instances I told myself that what I was doing was ok, it was either "just flirting" or "harmless fun" piss poor excuses, not a justification because there are none.

I've just read a post about lack of empathy (pointed out to me by BS) which I need to read properly and consider.

I hope this post makes sense.

I think what you are missing is accountability. Your examples above "harmless" and "just flirting" are stories you tell yourself of the circumstances to make the excuses usable.

When you start to break the excuses down without accountability it falls flat and lacks ownership. Because the truth is you knew it wasn't harmless, why hide and lie if it was?

The difference between an excuse and an explanation is the way you intend to use it.

Hi Bulcy,

I was going to comment on your other longer timeline, but I'll do it here as the other post was quite detailed.

I too struggled with my BH not "being supportive" of me and only looked at the negative in the marriage in order to justify my affair.

The way I challenged myself on these "justifications" about the marriage being unsalvageable was to take accountability for my decisions in the affair. In other words, I said to myself, "this justification was a problem internal to our marriage. I had other options than the affair for resolving it. If I was truly THAT unhappy and BH was unwilling to go to counseling, I could have filed for D." I came to understand that I acted cowardly in confronting the issues of my marriage. This helped me take ownership of my decisions and stop seeing the issues in my marriage as justification, but as issues I was responsible for resolving, one way or another. That is, for me the work I am focusing on now.

As for allowing myself to accept the advances of my AP, I didn't minimize them as I was well and truly done with my M and was looking to use AP's attentions to shore up my opinion of myself and my desirability before D'ing my husband. I had planned to stay in the marriage until the kids graduated high school. AP was a means of making it through that time. I think that's how our affairs were different. My AP also was a serial cheater and I justified accepting his advances as he was "going to D his wife too" as his kids were older than mine and just finishing high school. In the end, the empathy work I had to do (in addition to having empathy for my BH) was for his BW and family.

Harmless fun and just flirting are piss poor excuses for engaging in your behavior. It's good you're seeing now them as such. Have you investigated what allowed you to waste your single AP's time and emotional energy on you as you were never truly available in the first place? She could have been spending that time and energy on someone truly available for a life long partnership. She was by no means a stellar person herself, but she deserved that at least. That too needs to be addressed, as it is another form of lack of empathy and selfishness. If you can have empathy for the destruction and pain your AP endured, it also will shore up another moral barrier to you being incapable of an affair again. This work is needed AFTER you have finished your work on having empathy for your BS.

It's good you're addressing these things now. I hope you've NC'd your "friends" who enabled and encouraged the affair. Continue to do so- you need to kick people out of your life that aren't friends of the marriage.

Wishing you the best. Thanks for making these posts. Having this discussion is really helpful to me- to teach is to learn twice. It's helping me reflect on my own work and shore it up within myself.

A member named Devastated Dee had a great response when her WH told her that an AP "just" gave him head. She said she hadn't realized when they got married that it was open season on oral sex, and that she could have had men going down on her for years without it being a big deal.

When you look at your minimizations, can you formulate your response if your W gave the same excuses to you? How/why would you rationalize that as "different" because she did it?

Thanks for the responses so far.

I think what you are missing is accountability. Your examples above "harmless" and "just flirting" are stories you tell yourself of the circumstances to make the excuses usable.

Yes, I agree, it took me a long time to escape from believing flirting was "harmless", it isn't. Especially so in the hands of a serial adulterer. My flirting was with one intention, even if I did try to convince myself and BS otherwise.

The difference between an excuse and an explanation is the way you intend to use it.

I like this, my struggle is when I try and explain, I do so to defend myself. That is where I'm wrong. If it sounds defensive, it is defensive?!? Something to think on and learn when discussing. I've had to try and learn active listening, maybe active thinking before speaking needs work. BS tells me all the time to think before responding.

"this justification was a problem internal to our marriage. I had other options than the affair for resolving it. If I was truly THAT unhappy and BH was unwilling to go to counseling, I could have filed for D."

I used an unhappy marriage as an excuse. In honesty it was not unhappy. I was the only one who was absent from the marriage. BS did EVERYTHING possible to keep me happy, often at her own detriment. Yes, I agree with your point thought. I was a selfish coward, I have lots of issues that I am trying to work on. Unsuccessfully at this time as I have tended to run away when the going gets tough.

Harmless fun and just flirting are piss poor excuses for engaging in your behavior.

Yes, absolutely.

Have you investigated what allowed you to waste your single AP's time and emotional energy on you as you were never truly available in the first place? She could have been spending that time and energy on someone truly available for a life long partnership. She was by no means a stellar person herself, but she deserved that at least. That too needs to be addressed, as it is another form of lack of empathy and selfishness. If you can have empathy for the destruction and pain your AP endured, it also will shore up another moral barrier to you being incapable of an affair again. This work is needed AFTER you have finished your work on having empathy for your BS.

I need to clarify something here. While one of my APs was single, she was certainly not innocent. She knew that I was in a relationship and was implicit in the affair. Yes, I was actively chasing her and lying to her to get her to like me more. I chose to engage with her. I have no empathy for her and she does not, in my opinion deserve any. All other APs were either married or in relationships. Please do not see this as blame shifting, it really isn't. I take ownership of my decisions and choices in my affairs. I am not a victim nor do I think of myself as being led by them. I am and was an adult who made these decisions. I need to develop empathy and empathy for the right people. My APs do not deserve me wasting my time and energy on. My priority, as you point out is towards BS. I then need to work on family and real friends.

It's good you're addressing these things now. I hope you've NC'd your "friends" who enabled and encouraged the affair. Continue to do so- you need to kick people out of your life that aren't friends of the marriage.

Yeah, the "friends" are not longer part of my life. However I did not "throw out the trash" early enough in some cases. One of the friends (not mentioned in the posted timeline, but knew of my infidelity) was a friend for years after.

When you look at your minimizations, can you formulate your response if your W gave the same excuses to you? How/why would you rationalize that as "different" because she did it?

Yes, a good idea. One that should be simple to do. Add to the think before speaking.

A member named Devastated Dee had a great response when her WH told her that an AP "just" gave him head. She said she hadn't realized when they got married that it was open season on oral sex, and that she could have had men going down on her for years without it being a big deal.

Yeah, avoid using "just" such a minimising word

I think those excuses you tell yourself and use as justification is a good place to start to unfold your why’s but you have to dig deeper to get to the root of the problem.

For example, you thought you were unhappy in your marriage. Why?

Wife wasn’t paying enough attention to me or being supportive of me. Is this true? Or is it just your perception? If it’s true, why? Was there something going on her life that she needed support herself? If it was just your perception, why did you twist that reality?

With each answer, you need to figure out if the answer is truth or perception and then keep yourself why with each answer.

You may be shocked to find out just how easily we can bend the truth to protect ourselves. I had been absolutely convinced that my husband did not love me and he was with me by obligation. After digging deep and seeing things through a different lens I was shocked at that the evidence was quite the opposite of what my twisted perception was.

With each revelation, I was able to gain more genuine remorse for my actions and I started to take greater ownership for the affair.

How are things going, Bulcy?

Hi,

Things are OK. Lots has happened in the last couple of months. I was going to PM you, but I can't. Maybe you can message me and I'll go into full detail.

In short....

I have a new IC who specialises more on infidelity than my previous counsellor. We're only two sessions in, so too early to tell how good she is

I have joined a charitable group who work on anger management. I have so far only had one meeting and that was to gather information to establish if they can offer support. I start that in February

We have had two health scares with MIL and FIL over Christmas, they are both currently living with us while recovering and preparing for operations.

I have also spoken to another local charity offering CBT and metal well being. Again this is quite new and I'm awaiting a formal introduction to my counsellor/sponsor/whatever they call themselves. I do receive mails with guides to mindfulness/meditation etc.

Both BS and I are exhausted a the moment as FIL fell in on Christmas day and we've been looking after MIL since then. FIL came out of hospital last week. We're trying to find time for "us" but this is difficult. MC sessions are continuing.

Thanks for checking in