SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

This whole thing in books and on the internet about one spouse cheating on the other because there were problems in the relationship and emphasizing that the betrayed must look at their part in the decaying relationship is really lopsided. Absolutely, you did something wrong in your marriage. You were married. You were human. You had a different personality, a different background, and different needs than the person you formally loved and trusted. You screwed up in some ways for sure. But people, a lot of those problems in your marriage originated with your future cheating spouse, not you. Can we please point the finger a the person who wasn’t all in on the marriage, who wasn’t doing their fair share emotionally or physically, who had f**up attitudes and beliefs, who isolated themselves and cut themselves off from you, who pouted and complained rather than trying to work together. He/she was not a good spouse long before he/she cheated, and rather than looking in the mirror they blamed it all on you and used it as an excuse to break your very sacred relationship. "I tried everything." No, no you didn’t. You tried everything your way. You did not discuss it with me and what I needed and wanted. You were always selfish and self-centered long before your affair.

Let me repeat, if you are a spouse that cheated, you very likely sucked as a spouse long before you cheated. You were very hard to be married to. Stop putting it all on the betrayed. You were a bad bet for a lifetime partner before your affair. You are even worse now. What are you going to do about you??

Posting as SI Staff. I understand you are venting. And I agree with your point that the M is never to blame for the WS cheating. We are all imperfect partners as human beings. But be careful not too overgeneralize in your conclusions. Under forum guidelines: "please refrain from making statements that generalize gender, WS/OP/BS, race, religion or political alignment." Human behavior is just too complex too generalize that every WS pre-A was a bad partner. These forums are replete with BS posts that the WS was a wonderful, good, mediocre, poor, or terrible partner before the A.

Mysolstice

I think unhappily married people have several valid choices they could make. You can divorce, insist on discussion/counselling, or put up with it.

Sneaking around. Lying. Isn’t a good choice. If you think cheating is a good option to fix a relationships why not be upfront and say it before your head is turned. Or even better on the first date. Or prior to marriage and children at least.

My need for reliability and honesty wasn’t met and will never be met - how would having an affair with my reliable and honest accountant solve my marriage issues? Funnily when I suggested (tongue in cheek or more in anger) it in marriage counselling it wasn’t considered a reasonable way to help us as a couple. No surprise there!

Several months in My husband said ‘I am doing everything right now’ (implying being honest and upfront, reliable, thoughtful was good behaviour). I reminded him those aspects of marriage are ‘the bare minimum you expect from a husband who willingly made vows’. I then congratulated him on now being a ‘bare minimum spouse’. It did seem to hit home and we have talked about it many times since.

I am reconciling and to be honest it’s going well. But I am blunt and call out all nonsense. I’m not tiptoeing. I used to really try not to hurt his feelings or push him to talk - him holding back and pontificating and blowing situations up in his mind was poison to our relationship. Talking is now ‘bare minimum spouse’.

If he is sorry for himself about this situation he chose to put us in he is called out on it. He is sensitive and I understand and empathise with that in a person, I was respectful of that for many years. I was careful not to hurt his feelings or make him feel bad. I never moaned to girlfriends etc once in all
the years as I consciously made a decision not to poison my marriage by continually thinking badly of him (I think it can be a slippery slope to contempt). I looked for the good. He got on my nerves sometimes but that was to be expected. But now I expect him to accept it when I call out any ‘woe is me’ phrases and I am moaning here to you guys

I have many flaws but again I reminded him the time to moan about my flaws was before he chose to burn down the house rather than getting the roof tiles replaced. We can work on my many flaws (that he once blamed for his choices) if we ever get the roof back on. But we are still sweeping the basement and tbh I needed to work out if our values and futures can ever align prior to working out how to improve myself in our marriage. My priority was returning to being a functioning adult who could go a day without sobbing on the floor. Without getting intrusive thoughts. The time to discuss my flaws and imperfections was long gone. Again I called him out for Darvo’ing when he used this tactic which he did early days.

I have been forever changed by this- some good things some bad. I cannot work on my perceived flaws until I am stable and know the repercussions, my health and sanity are my priority now. I’m quite blunt, I’ve always been quite blunt about certain things - well I’m not changing or working on that perceived flaw at the minute. I’m happy being blunt and asking questions and calling out nonsense. I’m now maybe more blunt - so yes I’ve worked on my flaw I guess. I show when I’m angry or hurt or sad - maybe that’s a flaw but again I’m glad I can do that - it’s helped me this past year. I am glad I didn’t bottle up my emotions. I have worked on me but not in the ways that he mentioned to the marriage counsellor.

‘’I tried everything’’. I think this applies here. my spouse has had so many conversations with me ‘in his head’ that he probably thought he had tried everything. Sadly that was with his made up version of me and he failed to say the words out loud.

He has been a good but troubled spouse. He tried to hide his imperfections as he has never felt good enough. I knew this about him anyway. I hope he gets to be the person he always should have been.

I understand why people rug sweep. For me to heal i have had to really call out poor ingrained behaviour and this is being done at a time when your spouse has had a foot out of the door. It’s risky, he might leave. I think this is part of being okay to lose your marriage. I also get why some cheaters are incapable of reconciliation. To hear and recognise what you have really done needs emotional intelligence, diplomacy, hard work and a massive change to your ingrained behaviour. When your justifications, spurious reasons and fluff is taken away and you have to face what you have chosen to do at a time when your spouse is traumatised I understand why the old affair partner who blew smoke up your butt is an attractive option. Or stopping your partner from talking. Or starting again and lying about why you really split up. I would hate to be him.

To blow up our marriage for what absolute nonsense he received for a short period of his life. Remorse isn’t the right word.

My XWS was a horrible spouse before he cheated. So in my case yes this is true and he did try to blame me and the M for his cheating. I honestly think he has cheated all along but have definitive proof of A's around when I was pregnant with my daughter. My xWS was always very into himself and not empathetic. He lacked emotional intelligence and we never had true intimacy. He was never home after my daughter was born and I had the bulk of child rearing while having to work as well. I slowly began to withdraw emotionally (naturally) from him over the years and also lost a lot of respect. It did affect the bedroom. I had duty sex because that's all I was capable of within the environment he created. Of course this turned into blaming me for not being as attracted to him or into sex the way he wanted. He constantly criticized me, gave me silent treatment, stonewalled me, gaslighted me and eventually led a double life.

He still blames me to this day, especially for leaving the M. He says that I am worse than him or anything he did because I broke up the family spoken like a true narcissist.

My fWH has finally grasped the concept that every move he made in his affairs was a choice, a decision, and 100% on him.

He knows that if I had a vote in each choice he made, I would have voted NO.

He also understands and speaks to the fact that his issues with "the marriage" easily could have been solved with a single conversation.

He had many conversations with me - in his head and about me with his affair partner - but never one time actually with me about any issues with the marriage or our relationship.

His work since dday has included initiating conversations like that. It’s still hard, especially because he feels a great deal of remorse over his actions, and doesn’t want to bring up anything that he thinks might cause any type of pain for me. So we work on that together.

We have read some books that talk about the betrayed spouse "owning" their part. He gets really mad about it now. At first, I admit that I bought into it, believing that I contributed to his seeking other women. But I know better now.

Sorry double post

[This message edited by 5Decades at 7:35 PM, Friday, January 19th]

I think affairs happen often in a happy marriage too. They are about an unhappy person who don’t take responsibility for their own happiness and look for a bandaid.

I think both h and I had happiness the majority of two decades.

My affair was totally my fault. The status of the marriage at the time of the affair was a lot my fault, but some of it was his.

I agree with the premise but I don’t think I was a terrible wife our whole marriage. And had I been I think H would have divorced me right off the bat. It’s far more complex.

That being said, I am sorry you are struggling, and that your spouse is blaming you or the marriage. Doesn’t seem like you can reconcile with someone like that.

First post. I wanted to send a PM to the OP but I can't figure it out or OP doesn't accept PMs so...

Long time reader. I just joined the community this month. My reason for commenting... I've seen therapists (multiple), talked to others who have experienced betrayal, read way too many books, did the things one is told they need to do... and this comment/rant hits the proverbial nail on its proverbial head. It is a bomb. The OP scorched earth the popular mantra that both spouses, somehow-someway, are responsible for the WS betrayal.

Betrayal is cowardly. There is no integrity or honor in it. There is no love in it. Zero. Nada. Zilch. To say otherwise is simply untrue. Thus, allowing the WS to justify their betrayal (in part or in whole) by citing the shortcomings of their loyal and committed spouse... unconscionably cowardly.

MySolstice, a most excellent comment.

[This message edited by Apollos at 7:26 PM, Saturday, January 20th]

My EXWW used to say this: "but you have to understand your part in creating the situation that led me to have an affair".

My response: "so your ability to be loyal is situationally dependant and if similar circumstances presented themselves, you would cheat again?"

It's like standing before a judge after being arrested for embezzling millions from your employer, and them saying, "But your honour, the company wasn't making me happy anymore. You must take into account the role my boss took in creating the situation that led me to steal..."

[This message edited by Justsomeguy at 2:31 PM, Monday, January 22nd]

Speaking as a BH (reconciled), I was firmly in the "affairs are purely driven by WP's bad choices and their value system." Over time, my understanding is that it's never that linear. Humans are complex creatures and our choices and decisions are influenced by internal and external factors. Let's say a middle aged WH has an affair after a hot younger female coworker kept hitting on him for months. Let's say his wife was abusive/inattentive or made his marital partnership hellish. Would he have strayed if he was never hit on at the time he was unhappy and not getting affirmation at home? Possibly, but we can't be sure. There are Waywards who seek out potential APs either out of malice or need for affirmation or whatever. But there are also Waywards who were coaxed into crossing the line by predatory APs. In both cases, the Wayward has full agency and culpability, but there is a difference in degree between the two scenarios.

Let's say his wife was abusive/inattentive or made his marital partnership hellish.

Still could have addressed the issue with their partner and/or left the relationship before cheating. My XWH is abusive and he's the one that cheated.

He told me to my face that all the problems in our marriage were my fault, but that's what a NPD person would say. In the end, it was constant silent treatment & he wouldn't respond when I asked him a direct question until I repeated it 3 or so times.

Yes, I should have left him long before.

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums/?tid=662205&ap=1#mid8821932

Oh I agree. Breaking the wedding vows is like the worst way to respond to relationship friction. All I'm saying is that things like opportunity, a charismatic predatory OM/OW, oblivious BP, etc. could be the difference between someone who crosses the line vs. someone who doesn't.

The excuses presented are comical and sophomoric, as are the hypotheticals. Adults take vows. One doesn't lay down with another person because they aren't validated as they'd prefer (at the moment). The BS doesn't have hard days? The BS doesn't struggle with insecurity? The BS is always perfectly satisfied with the marriage? Come on... we're not in middle school.

Again, claiming the BS's shortcomings are an important/significant part of the WS's equation to cheat is pathetic and cowardly. Make no mistake, no one cheats who is resolved not to entertain such opportunities.

[This message edited by Apollos at 1:24 AM, Sunday, January 21st]

Again, claiming the BS's shortcomings are an important/significant part of the WS's equation to cheat is pathetic and cowardly. Make no mistake, no one cheats who is resolved not to entertain such opportunities.

Blaming the marriage is probably the most offensive thing my WW said when discussing her "whys". Many BS say "I was in the same marriage, and I didn’t cheat". IMO, that’s not true. We were in a worse marriage because everything in addition to all the other "marital problems", we were being cheated on too!

Early on in a class my wife was taking for unfaithful partners, she wrote in her notebook "did my marriage cause me to cheat"? Kudos, for the program she was in for showing her the truth of the situation.

I fell a bit into that trap myself. Although not condoning my WW’s affairs early in our marriage, I could understand them. Our marriage was bad. But as we dug in, it became apparent she was actively sabotaging the marriage to "justify her affairs". There was no opportunity to "talk through our issues before she cheated". They truly didn’t exist until she cheated. All of you have heard these "reasons" (or used them yourself) so I won’t go into them here. My marriage experience was markedly worse than my wife’s, yet I never cheated.

I showed my wife love and attention. After she started cheating, she told me she "didn’t think she loved me anymore". I have NEVER said that to my wife in 42 years together (even after multiple D-Days). She decided I only showed her attention when I wanted sex, so she cut me off (and traded sex to other men for attention). Yet, I never cheated. When caught in an EA, she left the home, asked to come home the next day and promised to go NC with the EAP. She didn’t and it turned physical. She always treated me as the lowest priority (little did I know I even fell behind her multiple APs), yet I never cheated.

I have heard the tropes "anyone can cheat, it was a perfect storm, the stars aligned for them to cheat (isn’t THAT romantic) or my poor, innocent spouse was seduced and/or manipulated into cheating".

I was in a marriage made crappy by infidelity. I was told by my wife she didn’t think she loved me. Sex was withheld. Meanwhile, I worked with many young, beautiful women who ran the gamut from being flirty to openly propositioning me for sex. It was the "perfect storm" the stars were aligned, anyone could understand why I would "cross the line". One thing and one thing alone stopped me. My morals. I had them, my WW didn’t. It wasn’t the marriage, it wasn’t the stars aligning, it wasn’t "falling in with the wrong crowd" and it sure as shit wasn’t the marriage or me. It was her. She decided she wanted to do it, she decided she "deserved" to do it and she did. Being unfaithful takes a TON of effort. Staying faithful (at least for me), is comparative easy…

I am much less bothered by the cheating itself as I am bothered by the deception and stealing my agency and my life. If you want to sleep around, tell me, leave and go do it. Don’t treat me like shit and drag me along for the ride while burning down the marriage!

I’m also growing increasingly tired of the oft-repeated trope "You each were 50% responsible for the M". Not saying I disagree with this one in every last circumstance, but there are more than enough cases where the WS had been acting in many ways harmful to the M, even apart from the adultery, that now causes me to feel it’s unfair to declare this "50% responsible" universally true. Doesn’t this site have rules agains over generalizing?

ImAChump

I agree with your points that if the spouse is very unhappy, get a D and do whatever you want. But cheating during the M is just not acceptable and no reason for it.

I told my H many times that I get that marriages don’t last forever. And if you are unhappy or just want out, please do not cheat on me. Be honest.

I will hurt for awhile but I will still at least have respect for you.

But of course he didn’t do any of it. But he did come home and admit (on his own) he had been out with the OW that night. But by then the affair was months old and he was already planning to D me.

My SIL is probably the most demanding, narcissistic, self-absorbed person I have ever met. When she is in a room, she is he only person who is allowed to talk, and talks non-stop. When she gets up to go to the bathroom, she literally yells from the bathroom in order not to allow anyone else to speak while she’s gone.

She is mentally ill, and has been deteriorating more over the last ten years. She has not worked since around 1976. About 20 years ago she inherited a large sum of money, and changed to be even more self-centered than before. She has used the money to control her kids, but this isn’t working on her son. As a result, there are many loud and vicious arguments with him, and his children do not visit her. She has lost all of her lifelong friends except two, both of whom she pays for services.

Her husband is 72 and works full time, about 55 hours a week. She does not cook or clean, and demands that he come home first, get her dinner order, then go back out and pick it up. Every night. She will not text him or call and let him get it on the way home. Yes, he does this. Every day.

When he gets home, she treats him like her slave, ordering him to bring her a drink, rub her feet, feed the dogs, do the laundry….you name it. He does it all. And she just complains about having a headache, or about this person or that person, or that the dry cleaner didn’t come by….

Or that he falls asleep in his chair at 11 pm and he didn’t do the dishes or take out the trash yet - after working ten hours.

If ANYONE is in a marriage that could "cause" a person to cheat, it is this man.

Yet, he doesn’t cheat. He has morals and ethics and takes his views seriously. He knows she is mentally ill. He is suffering, too.

Marriage counseling will not help this marriage. Because the marriage isn’t at fault here. And cheating isn’t a solution either.

And if he cheated, there still would be an excuse for it. Because he has other ways he could choose to go if he was to decide he wanted to be with someone else.

Meanwhile, I worked with many young, beautiful women who ran the gamut from being flirty to openly propositioning me for sex. It was the "perfect storm" the stars were aligned, anyone could understand why I would "cross the line". One thing and one thing alone stopped me. My morals. I had them, my WW didn’t.

I doted. I catered. I complimented. I was affectionate. Hugs, touches, kisses throughout the day. She said she needed it to be reassured; it made her confident that we were okay. I repeatedly said I love you and I like you (said she loved that). I'd lightly stand on her toe, slide my fingers under her underwire, pull her in and hug her (said she loved that). Brought her flowers on a random Tuesday or... vs just on a special occasion. I always brought home tulips every Spring as they were her favorite. When the kids became older, I spontaneously took her out, went on day trips... I made it a point to do things she liked. She always had the new vehicle. I drove the used car...

Our son started rowing at 14y and eventually became a nationally ranked HS rower. Rowing is a female-dominated sport where female rowers easily make up 75%+ of rowers on a team... thus mostly moms were involved. There were 3 dads who were regularly present with our team. Shortly after the introductions, moms and a female coach started flirting and being coy, playful, hanging around, giving me attention etc etc etc. They were curious about my family, especially why my WW wasn't around (stayed home with our children, one child with Down Syndrome). One mom actually stopped by to meet her.

I was cordial, polite, respectful... and most got the hint but, as time went on, season after season, 4 moms became very blatant with their flirting and intention. My son saw it and asked about it. He even asked his mother about it (caused a huge reaction from her). My point... those overnight regattas, even the one-day regattas, provided ample opportunity to discreetly cheat with multiple women. I didn't because it was never an option.

Then, one afternoon, I innocently stumbled on a 4hr conversation with a man she met via Ashley Madison arranging a "lunch date" (7:42am "hey" to 12:11pm "at stoplight about to turn in [neighborhood]"). Once I saw her in that frame. once the glasses were removed, I started connecting dots and no longer gave her the benefit of doubt... turns out she was a serial cheater throughout the 27yr marriage: multiple ONS, one 3yr affair (ended because she cheated on him), coworkers, on-off with a close friend, the lead pediatrician (name on the practice) at the practice she managed (the largest practice in the area). I'm sure there are more that I don't know.

[This message edited by Apollos at 10:25 PM, Tuesday, January 23rd]

Reading all these posts has made me really think about if BS are in any way responsible for the betrayal of marriage vows, and for me the answer is for the actual cheating they are in no way responsible. I do think however they may have been labouring under the opinion that because they are happy in the marriage then their H/W is also happy.
.As a BS , I think back over the years of my marriage and I do realise at times I was guilty of not really working at marriage perhaps as much as I could have and because of other things going on in my life. I agree if needs are not being met then discussion is the healthy way to deal with it rather than getting needs met outside of the marriage. ,

Character flaws are present in all of us however good morals should stop anyone from cheating.