SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

It’s been clear that my wife is avoidant for a long time, though I didn’t know the word for it. She shut down in arguments. She stonewalled like crazy, I felt the resentments buried in there. She refused to communicate, and it drove me crazy. I’ve been saying to myself and to her and to others close to me that "not communicating is NOT a communication style". I talked to friends close to both of us. I reached out to her father multiple times (he had promised to be there for us if we struggled in our relationship). We’ve done rounds of MC over the years.

And I’m not trying to say I’m perfect and didn’t have things to work on, but reading SI and Gottman and understanding the profile of a cheater, I was sitting on a time bomb the whole time, I was crying out for help, and no body heard and no body came. It feels disheartening when I think about it that way, like there is this epidemic out there that humanity is blind to until the full carnage is made plain. Anyone else had this experience?

I think the humans race is evolving to understand more about what behaviors work and what don’t. We have gone from the silent generation that didn’t talk at all or have much stock in emotion, and each generation gets a little more emotionally intelligent and demands more from life.

The function of marriage is completely different. It lasts a lot longer because our life spans are different. We go through phases in life that would have been previously unstudied.

Mid- life crisis is a big one because most people didn’t live past then. Women have careers, but it creates these unrealistic pictures of what our lives should be. What we should be able to accomplish. I think there is. High rate of burnout and we are seeing it in the fact women initiate 75 percent of divorces today.

And of course with females in the workplace it creates intimacies that could never exist otherwise, even though they shouldn’t exist. And don’t get me started on the internet.

People back in the day didn’t really talk about cheating. It was mostly for men and usually chalked up to their gender. We see movies that don’t depict cheating as a dysfunction, rather it seems like a star crossed love affair that is unavoidable.

And for me, I wasn’t self aware enough to see I was headed towards a brick wall 90 miles an hour.

I think the education just didn’t out there because we are in a new era where we know these things can be contributing factors because they all seem very unrelated. And to a certain extent, they are. Not all avoidant people cheat, for example. Not all people who have a long term, low grade depression cheats.

And of course, because often this happens in mostly functional marriages and most of the time neither person sees it’s coming. There is a certain level of denial of resentment, I certainly couldn’t even seem to admit mine for a long time, as if having them would crumple my entire world or something.

So the short answer? It’s an awareness that we haven’t developed because we are busy navigating new things in life that we had no template for. I have often thought about this if it’s not obvious!

Edited to add therapy has widely been stigmatized until more recently.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:23 PM, Saturday, February 24th]

Hey InkHulk

I can think of 7 people who quietly and politely suggested to me that perhaps I should think twice before getting very seriously involved with my wife.

It wasn’t the risk of cheating. It was more general.

My father made the most effort. He said ‘she’s odd’ and that I would ‘be making a rod for my own back’.

All but 2 relented and tried to get behind the relationship once it was clear I had made my choice. One of the others fancied me so I don’t count that. The last got married and moved overseas and we lost contact. She had been a good Uni friend and had just said ‘No, Straightup’.

Some others supported the relationship.

I am not sure which group was right. 26 years later I am kind of grateful to both for giving a damn.

I will say this about my Dad. He was a bit of an unusual guy. He cared about me and his advice was sincere, and true. But you can’t do things like cheat and marry your affair partner, and then have the kind of relationship with your kids where they will be able to receive nuanced advice from you. The mess he created was one reason why I was desperate to grab on to the second women to show real interest in me. And I(and others) could have given even more pointed observations about his new wife. It came across as hypocrisy even though I think he was willing to give ‘do as I say not as I do’ advice because he cared about me.

What was more surprising was how little support IRL there was after DDay. I had a few conversations with my brother. That’s about it. For all the professional buziness, I am realizing that I have become a bit socially isolated, outside of my wife and kids. Too many people died or moved away, and too few close friendships were replaced. I should work on that.

So InkHulk, my advice, as always is, how do you be the change you want to see in the world. How do you conduct yourself, and have the kind of relationship with your kids and others, where you can see things clearly, say things fairly, and be heard because if the example you set. I’ve kind of given up on being able to control what I’m given (not to say I don’t get anything), but I have some control on what I give, the timing and the pace.

InkHulk, my WH is also an avoidant personality type, but he never took it so far as stonewalling. Just a "man of few words," which often left me feeling odd but never to the point I'd suspect his depth of passive aggression. Nor did anyone else who knew him suspect the kind of cold-blooded betrayal I was hit with only 4 years in.

The thing with avoidant behaviors is how hard to detect are the problems that you're going to face in a relationship with them! In contrast, if your spouse had the kind of florid bipolar or histrionic personality that tends to display their issues for all to see, perhaps some wise acquaintance would have jumped in and warned you. But when you have the silent type, nobody will take it that far, at least, not in my experience. Especially if it's a man. You know, the strong, silent type, uh huh. Long before I met my WH I read a psychologist's dating book that advised readers to "stay away from that type" but the book never said why, damnit!

You are now among the wiser and wearier, but don't beat your friends up for something they just couldn't anticipate.

It’s been clear that my wife is avoidant for a long time, though I didn’t know the word for it.
- totally relate to this. It is probably now the biggest problem we face. I don’t understand how this wasn’t glaringly obvious in the three years we were together before we married. I think I saw it then as him being just a simple innocent person, rather than realizing there was SOOO much going on and it was all just stuffed down.

She shut down in arguments.
- yes, still doing that. At least twice or three times this week. He can’t/wont speak. Stares off into space and wont answer questions. It is abundantly obvious there is « stinking thinking » going on behind the curtain. In the frozen mode he’ll say « I don’t care about ANYTHING ». I’ll say that sounds like it includes me and he’ll repeat it. Then a half hour later it’ll be « I’m sorry » and « i just go numb ».

She stonewalled like crazy,
- this became a constant. The only variability was whether it lasted 24 or 48 hours. He seems to have finally stopped this, for like the last year. This is a signature narcissist move. Yes it’s an avoidant move too so can never be sure

I felt the resentments buried in there.
- yeah, it is so obvious that there is like a list of grievances they are adding up in their head

She refused to communicate, and it drove me crazy. I’ve been saying to myself and to her and to others close to me that "not communicating is NOT a communication style". I talked to friends close to both of us.
- it is nice that you had these kinds of relationships with friends where you could discuss such things. It makes sense when I see how readily folks gravitate toward you on SI. I’m sorry no one offered up more help.

I reached out to her father multiple times (he had promised to be there for us if we struggled in our relationship).
- sounds like he was a good egg though he failed here. My daughter is stubborn, like her father. If she were in a bad place I’m not sure I could get through to her. I also went to my father in law. I told him about the secretary and the things that seemed to be going on. Asked for help. He told me I didn’t bring his son joy and cut me off. Later he told my WH I was being unreasonable in asking him to get rid of his secretary, especially because she was « good for his job ».

We’ve done rounds of MC over the years.
- our MC also thought it was unreasonable that I wanted him to get rid of his secretary.

I was crying out for help, and no body heard and no body came
- literally exactly how i felt. Screaming at the top of my lungs. No one listening.

I am soooo sorry you’ve been put through this. I hope some day your broken heart is mended. you deserve that.

I was sitting on a time bomb the whole time, I was crying out for help, and no body heard and no body came. It feels disheartening when I think about it that way, like there is this epidemic out there that humanity is blind to until the full carnage is made plain.

Have you ever thought about other people in your life, other marriages and thought to yourself that they really have it together, they love each other so much? Or on the other side, wonder to yourself how they make that work?

I’ve looked at other marriage dynamics and have considered that what does not work for me and my husband can work for others. My in laws are a perfect example. They loved each other very much, but I personally could not live with their dynamic. I would assume that others may feel the same about us and I know several of our friends have viewed our relationship as one to strive for prior to my affair.

My point is, what others may see from the outside may not match what is actually happening behind closed doors.

I also agree with HO in that therapy had a stigma in the past. In my situation both my husband and I were screaming for help but did not hear or understand each other because we weren’t direct about it. Sometimes what we think is a plea for help doesn’t resonate with the person we are pleading to.

I’m sorry you didn’t feel heard. Having a better understanding of your needs will help you to be able to get them met in the future.

My WH was avoidant as well. I agree that makes it very difficult to know that they had these traits before marrying. We rarely had any disagreements before kids so really for five years of our relationship his issues were not apparent in any way. Once we did have things that we had to resolve though he was very avoidant and would even leave the room mid argument. It would upset me so much as I like to hash things out. He really didn’t realize what he did or how unhealthy it was until after d day. He now looks back at his avoidance and selfish behavior and sees it plain as day. And he is not avoidant AT ALL now. Which is pretty crazy but he realized I cannot continue with this behavior and have the outcome I want which is to keep me, his wife. We have talked through his avoidance and his selfish tendencies though pretty extensively. And I have told him I will not continue in a relationship with someone that stonewalls or is avoidant. I really think you have to name it and show them how this is hurting the relationship and then they have to have the desire to change. If they do not see it or just do not want to change no matter how many people or therapists point it out I don’t think they will correct it. I am really seeing in action if a person wants to do something they will. Thankfully in a positive way with my WH. I understand where you are coming from and I think that spouses that are avoidant and low in emotional intelligence but are not blatantly dysfunctional people are really the ones that you just would never see this coming. It was certainly a huge shock to me that my WH was capable of cheating on me but once I put these other pieces together I see more of the cracks in his coping skills and integrity. Cracks that he is very aware of and is working hard at fixing.

It feels disheartening when I think about it that way, like there is this epidemic out there that humanity is blind to until the full carnage is made plain. Anyone else had this experience?

Sadly, yes.

Part of my despair was seeing the facts laid out after discovery — and it felt like a very avoidable tragedy.

Conflict avoidance sure seems like one of the most common red flags. And I sure didn’t have any communication skills that could have coached my wife out of her corner. Not until the IC and MC we got after dday anyway.

Our M hit almost every mistake branch on the tree on our way to ground zero.

I’ve read nearly three dozen relationship books over the last 8-years — and some of them point out the obvious observations I missed along the way. Information that maybe could have helped us, if we studied relationships for years in advance of committing to one another.

Other people here suggested my wife needed to fall and fail, that was her only way to face the changes she needed to make. I don’t know if agree, but there is a logic to it.

All that they didn’t cover relationship red flags in the church pre-marriage classes I attended.

There are likely easier paths in life, just not for most of us here.

...they didn’t cover relationship red flags in the church pre-marriage classes I attended.

Oldwounds made a key point I forgot about, but which was also true in my experience. No marriage prepation material I ever saw spelled out the kind of red flags associated with a deceitful and/or personality-disordered partner. It all mainly focused on the importance of ironing out whatever differences a couple may have about money and household management, with a few sentences about marital sex, but zero mention of temptation or infidelity. The assumption was that two mentally healthy adults were considering marriage.

How sad that we were not helped as we looked to our spiritual leadership for guidance before making our most important lifelong commitment.

After D-Day 2, my pastor explained that some people - referring to his own wayward mother and my SAWH - should not have entered into marriage because they lack the capacity for true giving of self in marital union. I think most theologically-trained pastors don't get the counselor education to do that kind of advising; they have to learn it on the job.

So much good stuff to interact with. Thanks guys.

I think the humans race is evolving to understand more about what behaviors work and what don’t. We have gone from the silent generation that didn’t talk at all or have much stock in emotion, and each generation gets a little more emotionally intelligent and demands more from life.

I don’t know that I can agree with the evolving comment here, at least certainly not as evidenced by the last few generations. There is just too much gorgeous poetry and literature going back thousands of years. Humans have been pretty emotionally on point for a long time. Certainly the pendulum swings, but I don’t think I can easily agree that we as a species are clearly growing here.

The function of marriage is completely different. It lasts a lot longer because our life spans are different. We go through phases in life that would have been previously unstudied.

Also not sure about these statements. I’ve considered the thought that what we expect from marriage is totally different than the "survive and reproduce" model of "the past". But again, there is just too much romanticism in ancient literature for me to give that much credence. The Song of Solomon in the Bible is no less than 3000 years old and it’s an ode to erotic love. And our life spans are somewhat longer, but there are a shit ton of us that hit this wall at about 20 years of marriage, nothing there that would have timed out our ancestors.

Mid- life crisis is a big one because most people didn’t live past then. Women have careers, but it creates these unrealistic pictures of what our lives should be. What we should be able to accomplish. I think there is. High rate of burnout and we are seeing it in the fact women initiate 75 percent of divorces today.

Not so sure about the lifespan comment, and I’ll just say that my wife did not have this burn out problem.

And of course with females in the workplace it creates intimacies that could never exist otherwise, even though they shouldn’t exist. And don’t get me started on the internet.

The internet blows!

People back in the day didn’t really talk about cheating. It was mostly for men and usually chalked up to their gender. We see movies that don’t depict cheating as a dysfunction, rather it seems like a star crossed love affair that is unavoidable.

Bridges of Madison County blows!

I think the education just didn’t out there because we are in a new era where we know these things can be contributing factors because they all seem very unrelated. And to a certain extent, they are. Not all avoidant people cheat, for example. Not all people who have a long term, low grade depression cheats.

And of course, because often this happens in mostly functional marriages and most of the time neither person sees it’s coming. There is a certain level of denial of resentment, I certainly couldn’t even seem to admit mine for a long time, as if having them would crumple my entire world or something.

I know that nobody was going to ride in on their white horse and save me from my situation. But it just seems like no one even knows what to look for, even therapists. It’s why Gotmann’s claims are so bold and exciting, the man actually claims to have something worth listening to here. But my friends and family, to them all my cries just sounded normal enough. Therapists just called it he said/she said stuff. In fact the first MC we ever saw was a few years into our marriage. I remember this woman’s advice to me was that, because my wife was upset that I should obviously just apologize for whatever it was she was upset about, regardless of how I saw it. I guess I have held a resentment against her for a long time now.

I have often thought about this if it’s not obvious!

Color me shocked. Wish we could chat over coffee, all of you, could make a hell of a morning chat.

I can think of 7 people who quietly and politely suggested to me that perhaps I should think twice before getting very seriously involved with my wife.

I did not have this experience. Maybe if my father hadn’t abdicated his place in my life he might have. My wife and he did not get along at all, and looking back now I empathize a lot more with my dad.

I am not sure which group was right. 26 years later I am kind of grateful to both for giving a damn.

Amen to that. We have had people that cared, just no one helpful.

My father made the most effort. He said ‘she’s odd’ and that I would ‘be making a rod for my own back’.

I will say this about my Dad. He was a bit of an unusual guy. He cared about me and his advice was sincere, and true. But you can’t do things like cheat and marry your affair partner, and then have the kind of relationship with your kids where they will be able to receive nuanced advice from you. The mess he created was one reason why I was desperate to grab on to the second women to show real interest in me. And I(and others) could have given even more pointed observations about his new wife. It came across as hypocrisy even though I think he was willing to give ‘do as I say not as I do’ advice because he cared about me.

The more you talk the more it seems like I believe that Australia is really just a parallel universe and we’re living slightly divergent threads. My father’s hypocrisy also disqualified him from speaking into my life, though I look back now and wish I could have tempered my disdain for him (much like I am in attempting to R, integrity adjacent and all that). My father didn’t even try to advise me, I think he was buried in shame and drunk too often. I also clung strongly to the second woman I ever really dated. I did love her, but there was an insecurity in the air from my life circumstances.

What was more surprising was how little support IRL there was after DDay. I had a few conversations with my brother. That’s about it. For all the professional buziness, I am realizing that I have become a bit socially isolated, outside of my wife and kids. Too many people died or moved away, and too few close friendships were replaced. I should work on that.

I have some close relationships, but they were not of immense use in this. This was too much pain and heartache and of a particular kind that they couldn’t relate to. SI was my lifeline. I’ll say that as I reflect back, my mother was cheated on and she has been totally absent from me. Never mind, I’ll take that one to therapy.

So InkHulk, my advice, as always is, how do you be the change you want to see in the world. How do you conduct yourself, and have the kind of relationship with your kids and others, where you can see things clearly, say things fairly, and be heard because if the example you set. I’ve kind of given up on being able to control what I’m given (not to say I don’t get anything), but I have some control on what I give, the timing and the pace.

I’ve become a Gottman evangelist. When my brother described an interaction between he and his wife, I told him that it sounded troubling, that he was stonewalling. And as much as in the past I probably would have just supported him and told him that his wife was being over emotional, this time I told him about the 4 horseman and bought him a copy of the 7 Principles that Make Marriage Work. I want to teach my children this stuff, that all this emotional stuffing they do (cause they’ve been raised in this) is not good for them. But it’s an uphill battle, trying to reprogram.

But yes, I want to use this new awareness to benefit my life, my children’s life, my friends, family, and of course my cherished SI.

I think there are so many reasons why no one helps.

Before marriage, as others (and you, Inkhulk) have pointed out, there is a lack of effective training/counseling about communication and the true nuances of marriage and the obstacles that marriages face.

I also think that avoidance can be hard to spot until big crisis come. I see it now though. ya...

Now I even see the early flags and some of the flags in fWH's family that I missed.

Once a marriage is struggling, even people who know the marriage is struggling fail to help for many reasons:

Subconsciously, they worry it's "catching." No one wants to get too close to a ship going down because they might get sucked under too. If I hear my friend accurately describe issues in her marriage, I might see the cracks in my own...and now I've seen a problem that I used to be able to ignore.

Some don't want to weigh in and be "responsible" for a friend's decisions. They are worried they'll be blamed if you stay or if you go.

Some feel that the specific problems are outside of their wheelhouse and don't know how to support.

Some worry they don't have the time, energy, capacity to support when they have their own life stressors happening.

I've appreciated the people (outside of my IC) who are willing to be ongoing support. I try not to lean on anyone too much and cause caregiver fatigue.

I love that you are trying to re-teach better relationship and communication skills to your own kids.

Being on this site is a way for most of us to be the support we wish we'd had. But I've also offered to be real-life support for others too.

As straightup said, what we can do is be the change we want to see.

[This message edited by BreakingBad at 2:54 PM, Sunday, February 25th]

Ink I read a Gottman book this week. Why marriages succeed or fail. Totally eye opening. I’ve read a lot of Gottmans books and I think they are great. I call out the four horsemen when they clip clop in. But this book has really unsettled me.

I am quite confrontational, but I forget pretty quickly. My husband avoids and hopes it goes away but then creates his own story in his head. I thinks he believes that no arguing means safety. I also think he sees himself as a victim. Me as the bad guy. I’m no longer so sure I am. I thought I was for a long time. He festers and stews on his unhappiness rather than speaking. He doesn’t usually stonewall as such but he just refused to say what was in his head. Then accuses me of being too scary to talk too. But I think he sees everyone as too scary to talk too.

I am teaching my children Gottmans work. I want them to do better and also recognise red flags and run at the first sign of them.

How’s the story of how you got together? Gottman says rewriting that suggests you have big issues. I recounted our history when I thought something was wrong (before I knew about his secrets). I adored the history. It was magical. I no longer think about the history/wedding/early days. It’s very tainted when I do. As I said the book has unnerved me.

The thing with avoidant behaviors is how hard to detect are the problems that you're going to face in a relationship with them!

True that. Looking back, there were signs. When we were dating she over listened, under shared. And I’m sure at the time it felt pretty good to have a beautiful woman listen intently to me, and frankly I had a lot to say (I know you are all shocked). I’m sure I always just assumed that the day would come when she would be the more talkative one. And I’m still waiting…

I think the humans race is evolving to understand more about what behaviors work and what don’t. We have gone from the silent generation that didn’t talk at all or have much stock in emotion, and each generation gets a little more emotionally intelligent and demands more from life.

I don’t know that I can agree with the evolving comment here, at least certainly not as evidenced by last few generations. There is just too much gorgeous poetry and literature going back thousands of years. Humans have been pretty emotionally on point for a long time. Certainly the pendulum swings, but I don’t think I can easily agree that we as a species are clearly growing here.

Evolution doesn’t mean better. But for every poet or art piece we aren’t producing, there have been many advancements that make our life’s easier, and the overall environment we are responding to is different. There isn’t even a way to debate that.

What I was specifically referring to is we expect more out of everything than other generations. And we talk about our feelings more in a scale that what is understood about our emotions, patterns, etc has evolved. You probably wouldn’t find a helpful book on relationships much earlier than 1960. Most before that told us women to dote on our husbands and make sure he has his slippers and have you and the children be quiet so he can rest from his day. We didn’t study this stuff for there even to be patterns and not many of us want to pattern our relationship after our parents relationship, so we go about it differently.

My point for talking about the evolution is I think the information we have about cheating is fairly recent in the last 50 years or so and no one goes and seeks it until it happens to them. Society as a whole sees adultery through the eyes of fictional depiction that does not really cover what lies beneath it.

The function of marriage is completely different. It lasts a lot longer because our life spans are different. We go through phases in life that would have been previously unstudied.

Also not sure about these statements. I’ve considered the thought that what we expect from marriage is totally different than the "survive and reproduce" model of "the past". But again, there is just too much romanticism in ancient literature for me to give that much credence. The Song of Solomon in the Bible is no less than 3000 years old and it’s an ode to erotic love. And our life spans are somewhat longer, but there are a shit ton of us that hit this wall at about 20 years of marriage, nothing there that would have timed out our ancestors.

I think it’s impossible not to say marriage has changed, even since the sexual revolution. It’s difficult to say that it didn’t start out about love at the time that Solomon covers but to think there hasn’t been and ebb and slow based on environment would be throwing darts and too broad for discussion. I would argue the Bible says things about marriage that I think holds up today and other things that we ignore. But I am not looking to debate any of that.

What I am talking about is how it’s changed since our direct descendants. My grandparents were the silent generation. They believed you got married, stayed together, didn’t matter that it looked like or if you were happy. The women were financially dependent on men. I talked to my grandfather on his death bed and he told stories of how he met my grandmother that were sweet but it was obvious that the rest of it was living with her made him miserable for the 50 plus years they were together. Most of us won’t endure that, divorce has become far more of an option. And if you think any of them went to marriage counseling, then perhaps your grandparents were wealthy or they did it with their pastor if they could bear having someone knowing their business.

Life was not about happiness, that is a newer expectation, to be happy as much as possible.

I am not really talking about cheating I am talking here about emotional intelligence. Because I am responding to the question of why didn’t we know? We weren’t really taught, and it’s information like I said that most people don’t seek out until they need it. No one gets married reading books about infidelity. I was reading things like "Women are from Venus, men are from Mars" which to most now is outdated, and this was only a quarter century ago.

Mid- life crisis is a big one because most people didn’t live past then. Women have careers, but it creates these unrealistic pictures of what our lives should be. What we should be able to accomplish. I think there is. High rate of burnout and we are seeing it in the fact women initiate 75 percent of divorces today.

Not so sure about the lifespan comment, and I’ll just say that my wife did not have this burn out problem.

Well I wasn’t really talking about anyone’s specific spouse, and I definitely wasn’t making any comments about yours. Though my affair did occur during an existential crisis, and because of that have read a lot surrounding it. I have also spoken to many here over the years that shared that experience.

My point is that we didn’t live long enough to have these phases in life to even study them. We now understand different phases of marriage. My whole explanation is geared towards why didn’t we know?

I know that nobody was going to ride in on their white horse and save me from my situation. But it just seems like no one even knows what to look for, even therapists. It’s why Gotmann’s claims are so bold and exciting, the man actually claims to have something worth listening to here. But my friends and family, to them all my cries just sounded normal enough. Therapists just called it he said/she said stuff. In fact the first MC we ever saw was a few years into our marriage. I remember this woman’s advice to me was that, because my wife was upset that I should obviously just apologize for whatever it was she was upset about, regardless of how I saw it. I guess I have held a resentment against her for a long time now. rolleyes

Tell me about it. After my affair I went to therapy and one of the reasons was to prepare to confess. My therpist really tried to talk me out of that. I had to get a new one who could align with the idea that I my integrity could never be restored if I just didn’t tell him.

And I have thought about that later- I mean, I could have not told him and just worked on myself and he would have been spared.I still think it was one hundred present the right thing to do with all that I know now, but the theory community is a whole lot of generalists. They kind of give the same processes like a one size fits all sort of thing. Those here that saw specialists claim it’s worth the money. We didn’t have them in our area. And at some point therapy is not got to solve it all. I haven’t been in years but the awareness it brought still allows me to uncover little pieces of the puzzle with myself today.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:06 PM, Sunday, February 25th]

I think I saw it then as him being just a simple innocent person, rather than realizing there was SOOO much going on and it was all just stuffed down.

I think this is a really nice succinct summary of some key points. This emotional shutting down is seen as "different, not bad", but damn it, I’m calling a spade a spade now and it is really horrible behavior. Both for the person living it and anyone attempting to be in relationship with them. Humans are emotion factories that don’t stop. If they aren’t being expressed in normal healthy ways, shit is GOING to go sideways. I think it’s that simple.

In the frozen mode he’ll say « I don’t care about ANYTHING ». I’ll say that sounds like it includes me and he’ll repeat it. Then a half hour later it’ll be « I’m sorry » and « i just go numb ».

I’m sorry, that sounds so painful. You deserve better.

yeah, it is so obvious that there is like a list of grievances they are adding up in their head

I have a strong sense that they are still there and she seems to think that we need to "get past" this and then she can either unload those "real problems" on me or get back to the regularly scheduled programming of silently resenting me.

it is nice that you had these kinds of relationships with friends where you could discuss such things. It makes sense when I see how readily folks gravitate toward you on SI. I’m sorry no one offered up more help.

You are so kind.

I am blessed with some close like brothers friends, and siblings that I’ve trauma bonded with, and frankly I am just glad to have the closeness regardless of where it came from. No one saw this coming, I don’t blame anyone for not rescuing me. But can we do better going forward? I hope so.

sounds like he was a good egg though he failed here. My daughter is stubborn, like her father. If she were in a bad place I’m not sure I could get through to her. I also went to my father in law. I told him about the secretary and the things that seemed to be going on. Asked for help. He told me I didn’t bring his son joy and cut me off. Later he told my WH I was being unreasonable in asking him to get rid of his secretary, especially because she was « good for his job ».

Sorry for that awful interaction with your FIL. What a dick. My FIL has been pretty amazing, all things considered. He took over the mantle my father abdicated, I’ve loved him like a true father for a long time, and he says I’m his son no matter what. But I do feel let down by his promise to be there. I think he did it out of a good place, but he had nothing to back it. Nothing except a "forgive at all costs, ie RugsweeperaRUs" philosophy that he has followed pretty impressively with his horrible mother. I think he doesn’t fully understand why I can’t just do that, but he has told me many times that he understands if I choose D and he will love me anyway.

- our MC also thought it was unreasonable that I wanted him to get rid of his secretary.

My overall opinion of the therapist profession is not very high these days.

literally exactly how i felt. Screaming at the top of my lungs. No one listening.

I am soooo sorry you’ve been put through this. I hope some day your broken heart is mended. you deserve that.

You too, friend. You too.

yeah, it is so obvious that there is like a list of grievances they are adding up in their head

It wasn’t that way for me. I honestly didn’t know I was holding resentments. Someone here used to read what I wrote and told me often that I was full of them. It would make me mad because I didn’t think it was true.

Why? Because I saw anger as a negative attribute instead of a healthy emotion. I repressed it. My mother was an angry, critical person. I never liked how she talked to my dad. I still don’t. I set out to have a marriage that was absent of this. I wanted to be in lovey dovey mode every day.

Often I would just not bring up conflict be cause I didn’t want to ruin the day. I thought I could deal with it. And I wanted him to be happy with me.

Eventually I saw that all I had essentially done was create an unhealthy set of coping mechanisms within my marriage. And then resent the prison I had created for myself as if he had created it for me. I was an over doer. And by the end of that fiasco the narrative was that he only loves me for the things I do for him. If I stopped doing them he wouldn’t love me. So then I felt I needed to get out of the marriage so I could stop doing so much.

It’s asinine. But I didn’t go around trying to resent him or trying to hold onto that stuff.

When the therapist made me stop doing them (she had me sort my shoulds and coulds- I wasn’t allowed to do any of the coulds, which were Optional things rather than requirements for living) I hated it at first but months into it, I could see that it changed nothing other than now I wasn’t as busy or overwhelmed. It was only then that I saw I had created all this work. It took months to realize the reason I did it was to feel worthy of something.

It would have been nice to know that earlier. I mean it would have saved me from feeling so disconnected from him, and a whole lot of unconscious resentment.

I think women especially are groomed to be pleasant and accommodating from early in child hood until they are on their own. Another form of the evolution has taken over because I see millennial parents really teaching about regulating emotion and general autonomy. When. I was growing up it was look proper, act proper, smile and be gracious. And then watching how much I didn’t want to be like my mother turbo charged that need for me to hold no anger or resentment.

I don’t think it’s a game most of us play, rather a lack of awareness because we want connection so badly we want to skip the negative parts. That in itself is avoidance. And my husband really didn’t appreciate at first when I was showing up because he had really been married to someone who told him yes all the time and didn’t call him out on certain things. We have gotten better at all that, but at first it was a flood gate because those resentments were actually coming out and supercharging the conversation. And it didn’t help that it was obvious to me that he didn’t like the change because he benefitted from my easiness prior.

Now we kind of have this thing where neither of us compromise. We find solutions where neither of us have to as often as we can. I have seen old wounds say something similar. Hard to create resentments when you get great at creating win wins. I feel like we are truly equals now and that my needs are as important as his. There is nothing for me to resent in that paradigm.

Edited to add: sometimes I reflect further after I post which I find beneficial to my own self awareness. I realize now that sometimes the pinpointing I was going through about resentment also included the image I was still trying to protect. It isn’t a good look for us ws to admit resentment. To tell people it’s there while knowing that what we just did hurt our spouse more than some of these resentments we were holding but we still are talking about them, well it makes it seem like we are unremorseful. In reality, you can be remorseful and be needing to examine the resentment so that you can be sure you are creating a person who no longer has the need for them. It’s a very touchy thing to admit “I cheated on you but I also resent x,y,z” because we can fully expect that to not be taken well. In our minds we just don’t want to continue to endure the things we are resentful about. At the same time we don’t have the new skills and self confidence that those patterns can be different.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:15 PM, Sunday, February 25th]

What help do you think would have improved your sitch?

I knew my W had a dark side. I just didn't realize the dark side was winning. Neither did her very observant therapist realize it. But I can't imagine what would have prevented my W's A. She would not change until she was ready.

What sort of intervention would have stopped your WS from cheating? (This is a dialog with Ink in some ways, but that's a question for all BSes.)

You people are SO AMAZING to talk to. I just love it. I truly feel so deeply blessed to have found this channel to hear your thoughts, that you all are willing to hear mine and interact. I’m so damn grateful for that right now.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 4:52 PM, Sunday, February 25th]

Have you ever thought about other people in your life, other marriages and thought to yourself that they really have it together, they love each other so much? Or on the other side, wonder to yourself how they make that work?

I’ve looked at other marriage dynamics and have considered that what does not work for me and my husband can work for others. My in laws are a perfect example. They loved each other very much, but I personally could not live with their dynamic. I would assume that others may feel the same about us and I know several of our friends have viewed our relationship as one to strive for prior to my affair.

To me this is a key learning from Gottman, that healthy relationships can look rather different from the outside, but you have to look a layer deeper to see if the horsemen are running rampant and if people are feeling heard, even if some conflicts never get perfectly resolved. I don’t need our marriage to be patterned off some Leave It To Beaver ideal, just something that works for both of us.

I also agree with HO in that therapy had a stigma in the past. In my situation both my husband and I were screaming for help but did not hear or understand each other because we weren’t direct about it. Sometimes what we think is a plea for help doesn’t resonate with the person we are pleading to.

I’m sorry you had that experience. I think that is some hard earned wisdom that the pleas of our heart are not easily recognized to others, even if they feel life and death urgent to us internally.

I’m sorry you didn’t feel heard. Having a better understanding of your needs will help you to be able to get them met in the future.

Thanks, and I agree. I’m figuring me out, I’m really not prone to the same confusion and self doubt this has fueled for 20 years. I know it is not too much to expect a partner who freely shares, is honest, and who owns their own stuff. I don’t need perfect, but I do get to have some minimum expectations.