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I haven't posted in a while but I just really need opinions - as I feel like I'm going insane! Either that or WH and I just clearly cannot communicate on any normal level, or he has zero insight into his own behaviour (this has actually been pointed out to him several times on the SI board).

So I no longer want to have anything to do with my inlaws. They treated me absolutely terribly when my WH was gaslighting me saying he wasn't cheating. My mother inlaw even lied to me about where WH was staying during the affair. She told me he was staying at theirs, which he wasn't. He was staying with his AP. She didn't know this, as he told her he was staying with a friend near work. But still, she lied to me and if she would have told me the truth, I may have saved myself a further two months of torture, trying to figure out what was going on.

When I found out about the affair, his parents still refused to believe it. I was obviously beside myself - and completely and utterly alone as they were my only family. His dad sent me a really nasty message, saying I need professional help, that he is definitely not cheating and that I am damaging my children with my mental health. He even sent me some useful links, to get myself some help 🤣

Anyway, when we started trying to reconcile and he told them everything, I received some luke warm apology from his dad, and I did feel his mum was sorry for her behaviour. She didn't profusely apologise or anything, but I put that down to feeling ashamed.

I never then really received much contact from either, and things weren't exactly the same, but things were OK. I was polite, said happy mothers day to his mum, hugs etc when we saw them.

Fast forward to April, when I made this post:

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/topics/662700/mother-in-law/

Thats what happened next!!! So since then, I just cannot bring myself to see or speak to them. At all. I've had two repair attempt texts from his mum, saying she's sorry and does love me (huh, odd way of showing it). I cannot bring myself to reply. I feel I moved on from being treated like dog shit before, I couldn't bring myself to do it again.

WH in all honesty has been totally supportive of my feelings and has said he understands why I can't speak to them.

Until seemingly today.

At the weekend we went camping and his parents had the dogs. He dropped them off when I was working. But collecting them on the way back, we agreed he would drop me at the shop, collect the dogs, quick hello and shoot off. When I asked what to say as to why I'm not there, HE suggested he could just be honest and say I'm still really hurt by everything, rather then make excuses. I said I would prefer it if he did, this as at least actually honest. I also then asked if he thinks we should be honest with the kids if they ask (they know what happened and how upset I was), and he agreed yes. No more was said about it.

So after collecting the dogs, I asked how it went. He said he just said, that I was at the shop grabbing us some bits, but that she seemed upset. I asked why didn't you be honest like we agreed? He said we didn't actually agree anything!? And then followed on by it seemed a bit insensitive to say and he just read the situation as it was. Now the bit to me that was like a red rag to a bull was him saying "we didn't agree to anything"!!! I kept saying but we DID and he responded but its not like he signed anything (he does admit that was very immature), and we didn't categorically agree. I was so angry as I was trying to explain that to rebuild trust he should fulfil what we agree on and if he can't/does not for xyz reason, we discuss that. But we didn't actually really get round to discussing why he wasn't honest with his mum, because the conversation became side swept by his insistence that "its not what we agreed". I even said that of course I would understand if he felt it just wasn't appropriate at the time, but to just say we didn't agree is mind boggling and does not bode well for our communication moving forward. He eventually...sort of...admitted that we did agree.

And now TODAY, he phoned me on his way home from work, he initiated the conversation about last night which was good as this is what I have asked him to do. I said to him I am sensing some sort of resentment that I no longer speak to his parents, as he made a dig the night before that "he hasn't seen his mum in so long" (to be clear, I have absolutely zero issue with him seeing or speaking to his parents whatsoever).

So on one hand he is telling me that he is completely on my side, he truly understands why I can't forgive them, that he can't himself either for the issue relating to our daughter (in the linked post). He says he will never hold any resentment towards me.

But then on the other hand, these are some of the things he has said to me this evening:

- The mature thing for you to do would be to just have a conversation with her about it all, seeing as she's offered.
- I don't know why you want to be so hateful.
- I couldn't dream of just saying I'm never going to speak to someone ever again.
- What if one of my parents gets ill and has to live with us?
- What if one of them dies and I regret it? He said he doesn't want me to have that on my shoulders.
- He said its awkward - I asked who for - he said him and also his mum.
- He didn't cut his ex girlfriend off after everything she did to him (alienated him from his two elder children). I said thats not even relevant.
- Do I really want to add to the list of people that I'm never going to speak to again? (I don't know who this list of people is apart from issues with a colleague recently that have now been resolved and I'm going out for dinner with tomorrow!).
- That if I could just get to a point where I can be amicable and be in the same room as them.
- Mentioning the kids and that they're family (by law), and what about the kids.

I absolutely lost my temper when he started saying "I haven't even had a modicum of understanding for the position this puts me in". I have agreed several times how awkward this must be for him and that I get its not easy for him!!!!!!!!!!! He then changed it to - not a modicum of understanding during TODAYS conversation!!! Huh?! Well, look at what you've been saying ^^^

He is still stating that he is completely on my side and understands fully why I cannot move forward....but seemingly saying simultaneously that I am being hateful and it would be more mature if I just had a conversation with his mum and that its awkward for him and her!!!

I honestly have not felt this enraged in while, I became completely manic. I have sworn, raised my voice, been sarcastic, banged shit about angrily, and I know its not nice. He has reminded me that my behaviour is "hideous", demanded an apology ("apologise!). He did remain calm throughout.

I have tried to make him see that all of the stuff listed above is completely inflammatory, but yet he agrues, keeps asking how exactly and still saying "but I am telling you, I am 100% on your side". But how when you've said all of the above!

I think he likes to think he is and probably part of him thinks he is - but clearly he is not. I feel he struggles to really understand his own behaviour. It is truly wearing me down. And this is without the affair 😔

Unless, am I completely overreacting?!

And the upsetting thing is, is that a few days ago, I told him I would go to his brothers wedding next month, despite me feeling extremely uncomfortable and anxious about it. But for him I would do it.

Ugh, this is much longer then I expected, sorry 😞

-The mature thing for you to do would be to just have a conversation with her about it all, seeing as she's offered.

The mature thing for YOU to do would be to respect my boundaries and do what you said you were going to do.

- I don't know why you want to be so hateful.

It's not hateful to not want to have anything to do with someone who treats me poorly, lies to me, won't apologize, and is manipulative.

- I couldn't dream of just saying I'm never going to speak to someone ever again.

You'd better be doing more than dreaming of never talking to the AP again.

- What if one of my parents gets ill and has to live with us?

They're not ever going to live with us, at least not while I'm married to you, so don't worry about that.

- What if one of them dies and I regret it? He said he doesn't want me to have that on my shoulders.

Worry about yourself. My shoulders are broad.

- He said its awkward - I asked who for - he said him and also his mum.

You made your bed and now you can lie in it.

- He didn't cut his ex girlfriend off after everything she did to him (alienated him from his two elder children). I said thats not even relevant.

False equivalence. Want a cookie?

- Do I really want to add to the list of people that I'm never going to speak to again? (I don't know who this list of people is apart from issues with a colleague recently that have now been resolved and I'm going out for dinner with tomorrow!).

Maybe. That's my choice, not yours. Quit being dramatic.

- That if I could just get to a point where I can be amicable and be in the same room as them.

Maybe if I felt like YOU HAD MY BACK AND WERE ON MY TEAM, I COULD.

- Mentioning the kids and that they're family (by law), and what about the kids.

What about the kids? Take them for a visit. I'm not stopping you.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 9:58 PM, Monday, August 5th]

Ss33, you read my mind with each retort - apart from the want a cookie 🤭🤭 made me chuckle.

I'm just finding it unbearable and I'm getting angrier and angrier. And then when I'm getting in a complete rage whereby I feel I could rip my own teeth out, he's calmly telling me how I'm being a horrible person!!!!!!! 🤬🤬🤬🤬 Honestly I could probably breathe fire at the moment, but then when I'm alone I just end up sobbing.

How doesn't even deserve to be here - I have offered chance after chance that he knows he has not deserved. I offered a relationship with his parents, even after they treated me. And this is how I've been repaid! And he has the audacity to ask why I want to be so hateful?! And he CANT see why this is so inflammatory?!

To me it is clear as day that he has basically gone round there, felt awkward and seen it upset his mum - so he now feels differently. Not about his parents actions, as I know he still despises how they have treated me - but he clearly feels now somewhat differently on what he feels I should/could do. Whereas before, he was unyeildingly supportive and understanding and accepting.

What do you do when your spouse just can never see their own actions? 😪

I don’t care what the relationship is. Anyone who enabled the affair (including lying about where the WS was) is dead to me and the WS. So he should be jumping for joy that you aren’t as extreme as people like me.

Ohitsyou - I have mentioned that. To me, she ended up facilitating the affair.

I know she didn't do this knowingly, so logically she didn't. But she still chose to lie to me, every single day as I cried down the phone to her, distraught at the fact that he had just walked out on us all. She claimed he was upstairs at their house sleeping after a night shift. When really he was at his new girlfriends house, who he had known for a grand total of 6 weeks.

If she had been honest, I believe I would have connected the dots a lot sooner.

I'm the mother of her grandchildren - how she could lie to me like that, whilst I'm sobbing, is beyond me 😪

[This message edited by WhiskeyBlues at 10:55 PM, Monday, August 5th]

Have you considered that he might have some narcissistic traits. I’m mostly saying this b/c it sounded kind of gaslight-ish the way he was denying reality about what had been agreed to. Also your level of exasperation. That is something I experience with my WH frequently who definitely has some strong traits. On some level I have come to feel that these traits may be more problematic than the cheating recovery, which is obviously saying a lot.

I also notice that you are describing things he is saying that are in complete opposition to other things he is saying—without him recognizing the obvious inconsistency.

Also, when you said this: " What do you do when your spouse just can never see their own actions? 😪"
(It is painful to hear you feeling like this because I know how maddening and difficult all this is. All this can really start to erode your mental wellbeing—as I’m sure you are already aware)

Anyway, hopefully what I am suggesting is not the case.

What his parents said and did is outrageously disrespectful. Apple not falling far from tree? But what bothered me more is your WS's double messaging. I've seen this behavior with people, and it's never a good sign.

There is what they say directly.

"Ok, I agree about IC. I'll go."

"I won't do go out after work anymore."

"I would never."

And then there is what they do and imply.

"I am going to go, but I just don't like this lady. Relax."

"I don't go out anymore except how could I skip so and so's birthday. You are being unreasonable."

"Well, I would never except this is different."

Exceptions.

Inconsistencies.

Short-lived commitments.

Misunderstandings.

Reversals.

Denials.

What is your plan? You are ALREADY letting him manipulate you into going to a wedding. Bad idea. You are showing him weak boundaries so he'll push harder.

My suggestions?

"No means no. Do not ever ask me again."

"Your family is an OFF LIMITS discussion. If you mention them, I leave the room."

"If you continue with the underhanded comments about MY maturity or lackthereof, then we D. Because these are my boundaries."

Like I said, people who say one thing and do another are showing you who they are. Believe him. If you move your boundaries, then you have no boundaries. Stand your ground.

My narcissist mother used to frequently attack people who like something that I like. One day I said, "Enough." She said, "We're just talking. I can have my own opinions." I said, "I have warned you that I would not tolerate these attacks on things that are important to me. And now I am hanging up." She was SO furious. We did not speak for 6 weeks. One day she called, but the topic never came up again. That was 15 years ago.

Stand your ground. Nobody else can stand up for you if you won't do it. Do not humiliate yourself by associating with people who showed you such disrespect. And if your WH continues to shame and belittle you to get what he wants, he is showing you who he cares about. And it's not you.

Eta: we cross posted. EXACTLY what Stillconfused2022 said. My thoughts exactly.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 3:43 AM, Tuesday, August 6th]

Stillconfused, it is interesting you mention narcissistic traits, because I have considered this before (as did he at a point).

But I looked at how remorseful he was/is (although I question this now a great deal, actually looking back - remorseful words vs remorseful actions - they do not align), how he has taken full responsibility for the affair and how he does not appear to be seeking outside validation he used to crave.

Previously he was someone with a very fragile ego who used to seek validation from anyone he could- once he knew they "liked him", he would kind of forget about them. He doesn't seem to be behaving this way any longer.

I'm not getting the impression that he feels he is superior to anyone (if anything I think many of his issues stem from feeling inferior), although he has masses of entitlement when it comes to our marriage. I see this is many aspects of our interactions, and the things he says, but he doesn't.

I don't know if narcissism can exist without these traits?

But you are absolutely spot on with my level of exasperation. It is not normal, and the only feeling I can relate it to, was when I was bring gaslit during the affair and the constant TT. So it does feel like some sort of manipulation. I have never felt like this is my life, apart from the last two years. I feel like I'm losing myself, and I don't think I will ever heal whilst we are together.

Whether he has narcissistic traits or not, I believe its possible - either way, the easiest to explain the situation, is just that he really and truly cannot see his own actions. He has no insight. I think he's emotionally immature and lacks empathy.

I think I spend an awful lot of time, trying to "get him to see". Even when it has come to the TT. Its wearing me thin, it is a constant battle, and it leaves little room in my head to figure out how I feel, what I want, or even begin to heal.

OwningItNow - hmmmm the double messaging is interesting. Saying one thing and doing another.

A while back, he went complaining to his mum and a friend of his that I was constantly saying he is still lying. They passified him and told him what he wanted to hear. Poor old him and I need to stop asking questions and accept his answer.

Ha!!! Turns out he WAS still lying. Why on earth he complained to them, knowing he was still lying, is beyond logic.

Anyway, I told him never to speak to anyone about our marital issues ever again. We agreed.

Low and behold, around a month ago, we had a disagreement - he went and shared it with a different friend (and didn't even give the full story - this friend does not know about the A, or the lying, so obviously could not have given a sound response based on the facts).

When I told him he had yet again crossed another boundary we had agreed on, he tried to excuse it claiming we only agreed he wouldn't share anything with his mum!!! And that this friend is a lot more "level headed". I was again just absolutely aghast!!! He later accepted he was wrong.

Exceptions.

Inconsistencies.

Short-lived commitments.

Misunderstandings.

Reversals.

Denials.

^^^^

This. Exactly this.

Regarding the wedding, he has been supportive in regards to this. Actually initially, about 6 months after the A, he was very much "you can't not go", but then a few months later, his head appeared out of his ass and he accepted that if I don't want to go, then that is my choice and he will accept this and support me. Being balanced this hasn't changed - he hasn't made me feel under any obligation - but I softened and wanted to go, for him. That is absolutely not happening now.

I am not big on diagnosing, but one thing that people get wrong about narcissists is they really feel superior to anyone. Their behavior comes from deep insecurities and fragile ego. The superiority, if present, is just a protective shield. But the only way to know is for him to be officially diagnosed. I have heard that usually a true narcissist will not contemplate if they are one. I don’t know how true that is because plenty of people get diagnosed.

The reason you will want to know this is it’s untreatable and he is very unlikely to recover. Emotionally immature people are also very hard to get to the other end of the spectrum. How ever, I do think that I was emotionally immature/somewhat controlling/anxious and I have overcome a good deal of that now. I was better at 18 months out (assuming that’s your timeline based on join date) but still had a ways to go at that time.

However, it’s important not to accept any of it, and it sounds like you are getting exhausted. I think owning it now’s list might be a good one to use if you want to explain to him this is what you are seeing and it’s exhausting you. That he needs to stop looking for ways to mitigate the fall out, and truly look at who he wants to be. His actions are what is the level I need to be to get her to move in from this? Rather than taking the stance of “what kind of man do I want to be?” And until he shifts to the latter you can expect this to remain the way it is now.

If he refuses to look at that, I think you might be at a point where you might have to get out. Even if it’s in the form of temporary separation. He really should be to a place it’s obvious he wants to protect you rather than invalidating your feelings and trying to get others to help in a way of before himself out of trouble. That’s what this is - how do I get out of trouble?

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:30 PM, Tuesday, August 6th]

Hikingout, I agree with you - I don't think a diagnosis in some situations is all that important. I am wondering though...I don't know. I think I'm gradually accepting that he cannot change (regardless of the reason). I do believe he genuinely wants to be able to make this work, but he's just not capable of fixing what he has broken.

On a very basic level, his words just simply do not match his actions. But I think he genuinely thinks they do. Cognitive dissonance?

I know if I approached him with that list, he would simply argue with me and deny its the case. He would try and remind me off all the other good changes he's made. It would turn into a massive row whereby I end up screaming and swearing at him (and eventually sobbing). If I get to the point where I just can't listen to what he is saying anymore, as it is either infuriating, inflammatory or just downright illogical and I try to just shut the conversation down, I am told I am stonewalling him and therefore abusive 😪

I feel he has shaved years off of my life span due to the trauma and stress he has caused me. I feel he should be moving heaven and earth to just simply make my life as calm and as peaceful as humanly possible. Not arguing tooth and nail with me, refusing to look at his behaviour and then EVENTUALLY seeing my point.

I just want peace in my life.

. I do believe he genuinely wants to be able to make this work, but he's just not capable of fixing what he has broken.

I believe you when you say he wants to make it work. The problem is his focus isn’t on what type of man can make this work. His focus is getting you to see you are wrong and not giving him the credit "he deserves".

His fixes are relationship geared, but when one doesn’t really want to (or know how to) make the fundamental changes, then what they guess their partner or the relationship needs is inaccurate. It’s just another role to play or to try and play the role differently. It’s working on who you are in your core that allows you then to be good and solid in a relationship.

So to him, anything he is doing or trying isn’t good enough for you, but what he needs to see is that he is just guessing at what he needs to do to keep the marriage rather than systematically practicing how to be a man who loves and respects himself. Our relationships with others is a reflection of our relationship with ourselves, and when you fix it then all your relationships improve, not just the one with your spouse.

Desire to make it work is not the same as making it work. In sorry, you deserve better than that.

I think I spend an awful lot of time, trying to "get him to see". Even when it has come to the TT. Its wearing me thin, it is a constant battle, and it leaves little room in my head to figure out how I feel, what I want, or even begin to heal.

Great observation, what are you going to do about it?

Consider this: having narcissistic TRAITS does not mean to have a narcissistic personality.
The narcissistic personality includes all aspects.

Everyone has some narcissistic traits in a form or in another.

Consider this: having narcissistic TRAITS does not mean to have a narcissistic personality.

But also consider that having a lot of narcissistic traits can make you impossible to live with or maintain a relationahip with. We don't all have the same quantity or level of narcissistic traits.

He "is" a narcissist or he simply has a lot of narcissistic traits, whatever, but this is what I hear you saying, WhiskeyBlues (from an online source):

If you have a narcissist in your life, then you know that arguments or even constructive conversations can be brutal and make you feel as if you are going crazy. It’s because they are manipulators and purposely twist any conversation to maintain control over the other person and deprive them of a voice.

The narcissist uses a word salad when they are confronted with something that they do not want to talk about or if they are being called out. You may have questions about their behavior or the relationship or they could pick a fight with you or say something mean. It does not matter how it starts or who started it, they twist your words and confuse you to the point that you are doubting yourself and your beliefs.

When you speak about your WH and your efforts to talk to him, his solution is to manipulate your beliefs about him. That is a narcissistic trait, by the way, especially when someone does this all the time. They try to convince you that "What I am doing is NOT the problem. Your feelings about what I am doing are the problem." But let me tell you the impact that letting him win will have on you: depression, low self-esteem, exhaustion, self-doubt, and very poor mental health.

When we are in a relationship and deciding which couch to buy, we can each have an opinion. Great. But when we are in a relationship and share with our partner that we are being hurt and feel dismissed, they do NOT get to tell us that we are wrong. It is their job to say, "I don't want you to feel that way. I'll do better."

If he succeeds in "convincing" you that your feelings aren't valid, your authentic self will suffer mightily. You will feel small with the lack of support and validation. We feel what we feel, and we must have our feelings respected to be happy in a relationship. Your WS is simply not doing that. His narcissistic traits are getting in the way. From what you write, it seems he is jumping through certain hoops to do enough...for now. Nothing that you are saying suggests he plans on working on his own to meet your needs or maintain these changes. It all feels very temporary. It honestly seems that his plan over time is to manipulate and guilt you into living life back on his terms again. I worry for your mental health.

I am sorry that you are in the position of being lied to and disrespected by the in-laws. I understand how completely devastating it is/was and wish to offer my support to you.

Here’s my two cents. I learned this after hours and hours of "discussions" and trying to reason with my H the first few years post affair.

Back story - my H has a looonnngg history of saying one thing and doing the opposite. I mostly let it go until dday2 of affair 2. After that I let NOTHING go unchallenged. Bad for me b/c it mentally wore me down. But he learned I am not backing down. Ever.

You are having these conversations and situations trying to reason with a selfish jerk. Maybe a somewhat entitled selfish jerk. But here’s how to win!

STOP. PLAYING. HIS. GAME.

Start setting boundaries for discussions. It goes like this. Example below.

You: I’m not going to make any decisions permanently right now but I want you to know your parents are not going to live with us "should something happen". I’m sorry but I cannot help how I feel given how they treated me during your affair.

Him: starts the usual "you are being selfish" dialogue.

You: I’m going to stop you here because it’s not a topic open for discussion. I’m sorry but I’ve made up my mind.

And then you leave the room. You set a boundary that the door is closed on this. If he tries to initiate further discussion you stop him and leave the room or house or whatever.

You remain calm at all times. You take control of the situation. You don’t let him bully you or engage in his drama.

This is for your protection. You stop engaging in his drama. You say what you have to say and end the conversation b/c you DO NOT have to be bullied and manipulated any longer.

I learned this the hard way during my H’s affair. I would say "no" to something and he would spend hours trying to get his own way. I would end up crying but would hold my ground.

It’s been 10 years and he has learned two things: no means no and I’m not backing down AND if he ever goes against his word on anything I will D him. Because a few years ago we agreed to something and he did the opposite.

I was furious. I told him to leave the house. He then came home and heard me talking to my friend about it and he had the audacity to get mad at me. So I told him that’s ok but I’m not doing this anymore and if he cannot be true to his word then this M was over.

I’m sorry this is so long but I wished I had learned how to be successful in situations like yours earlier. I learned the hard way. But it now works for me b/c I no longer get the manipulative behavior from my H.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 11:59 AM, Wednesday, August 7th]

I learned this after hours and hours of "discussions" and trying to reason with my H

I second this. I believed for many years that all things were to be discussed, but then our marriage blew up. Now, in the new marriage when something is for me, is important to me, is required for me, there is no longer any discussion. I simply make the statement with a brief explanation and shut the door on the issue, literally and figuratively. My mental health has improved dramatically.

You should tell him that you have been to hell and back thanks to his betrayal and that it’s been an eye opening experience. You have decided to treat yourself kindly and respectfully from now on .This means not subjecting yourself to people or situations that are not respectful to you or don’t add any positive value to your life.

You have been gracious enough to not ask him to cut his parents off from his life. You expect the same level of grace where he isn’t making you feel guilty or pointing fingers at you for not wanting to have a relationship with them. That you will lose respect for yourself if you continue subjecting yourself to these people and more so, lose respect for him for shoving this in your face.