SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Briefly - my wife had an affair 15 years ago, we rugswept, and I've made little progress. She shows little to no sexual interest in my. She is very verbally affectionate and tells me she loves me often, and I believe it. However, I'm struggling badly. So...

...I've just started IC. I went to Relate (UK-based marriage guidance) for a few sessions but it was too "cozy" (and I went on my own), so I've found a therapist. It's difficult to know exactly why I'm there. I suppose it can only be to find the courage to take whatever next steps are necessary to get me out of the regular bouts of depression, caused by my wife's affair and our virtually non-existent sex life, that I have maybe three or four times a year.

With a few reservations, SI is excellent. However, for me, it came too late, I think - I didn't find it until well over a decade after the affair. By not acting correctly after Dday, I seem to have dug myself into a massive hole, which I'm struggling to get out of.

Quite a few of you have offered me constructive thoughts, which I'm very grateful for, but I really feel I have a long way to go. One thing I've observed - and I wonder whether others have seen the same thing - is that post-affair BSs who divorce are usually the quickest to move on, and the happiest. I suppose that's not surprising, really. Wish me strength.

Wishing you strength.

For me, therapy is therapy, whether it's physical, occupational or mental. I told my therapist that I expected therapy to be a workout.

Have a treatment plan. What are your goals and how will you measure that? One way to think of it is you're at Point A and you want to get to Point B. What mile markers will you pass to know you're going in the right direction. Another way to look at it is that you're going to battle. What do you want to do? You want to win. What's your battle plan?

Good luck!

Have a treatment plan. What are your goals and how will you measure that? One way to think of it is you're at Point A and you want to get to Point B. What mile markers will you pass to know you're going in the right direction. Another way to look at it is that you're going to battle. What do you want to do? You want to win. What's your battle plan?

Thanks, leafields, good post.

I was at a terribly low ebb last night. I was supposed to be going for a drink with my closest friend, but he cancelled. I was desperate to get out of the house, so told my wife I was seeing a different friend, and went into my local city for a drink. I was slightly cheered up by a friendly bus driver, then enjoyed sitting in a friendly bar for a couple of hours. Didn't talk to anyone, but I enjoyed the atmosphere.

When I got home, I re-read the emails between my WW and her AP. They were as I remembered them: sexual, passionate and, in the background, a sentiment from her that I am boring - in life and in bed. When I first read the emails (which were forced on me) 15 years ago, I think I was in genuine shock. I hated reading them last night, but my feelings have been slightly tempered by the weathering effect of time, which has begun to dull my love for my WW. I'm beginning to see her as just a woman I know, who I'm strongly attracted to but isn't really interested (sexually) in me, and it's as if I'm just beginning to come to terms with this.

What I did next some will view as foolish, but I've woken up with no regrets. I've mentioned elsewhere that I suspect my wife may have had an affair previous to the one I know about, and that her AP was aware of this (because he taunted me with some details - at the time, due to misplaced loyalty to my wife, I didn't ask him for more details. I wish I had; it's probably too late to find evidence now); well - I've emailed him asking for more information regarding this putative affair. He had already given me a plausible first name and now I'm waiting to see whether he'll confirm my suspicions. I don't know what I would do with this knowledge - as I say, I can't see how I could, at this late stage, find any hard evidence. But there you are.

I've just re-read one of the excellent pinned threads in another part of this forum - the one some call "The Ten Commandments". It's excellent advice that I encountered about 14 years too late. However, knowing what a fool I was back then, even if I'd seen it in 2010, I would probably have ignored it.

Nobody really acts "correctly" after Dday, with or without SI. Some people make better strategic decisions than others with the information and advice that they receive here, but with few exceptions, the rugsweeping/"reconciliation at all costs" is almost always the default position.

As for reaching out to the AP about prior affairs, I think you really do need to seriously consider what you will do next--with or without more information to confirm your suspicions. If you're looking for a reason to get divorced, you really don't need it. Even if your wife was a paragon of virtue before and after her affair, the reality is that you have a relationship that is deeply unsatisfying. But if you just want to say to your wife "Aha! I knew there was more!" then nothing will really change your current situation.

As you know, you can't change how you responded to Dday. But you absolutely can change what you do from this point forward.

Please take no judgment from this statement, it’s observation made with the hope of benefitting you: the long term misery you describe is what I believe is the worse possible outcome from being betrayed. An untreated wound that never heals until properly cared for.

If you are still reading the A messages and digging for info from the past, that sounds like you are still very raw, even after all this time. That sounds brutal.

I think my signature message is pretty applicable here. You as an infinitely valuable human being are more important by far than any relationship you have chosen to enter into, including your marriage. If staying in your broken, rotting marriage is causing you unending misery, friend, why are you staying? She isn’t your soul mate, there are others out there that you could explore happiness with, or just be happy on your own. The broken marriage has you chained to pain, but it’s like the lightly staked rope restraining an absurdly strong elephant. The means to freedom are in your hands and the restraints are psychological.

You are choosing to stay in your misery. Why?

You have been given sound advice.

One thing that I think is especially true for males is that you are taught to stuff your feelings. Rub some dirt on it and walk it off.

When I read your post, and please know I am sending this reflection not to blame or shame you- but I read a person who has been pretty passive in his marriage overall.

Why do I say that? Because even if there had been no infidelity, you are in a sexless marriage and you are deeply (and understandably) upset about that. Long, long ago, I lived in a sexless marriage and it’s demoralizing. It’s not natural when we are wired for connection to deny that need for connection long term.

The other thing we do is personalize it. We believe that it’s about that person not wanting us, not desiring us and it becomes an indictment on some of the most tender parts of our being. We hate bringing it up over and over because no one wants to feel you have to beg for sex, or that someone is being compliant rather than it coming from a true place of desire.

In reality, there are simply people who are not inclined to embrace their sexuality and would be that way in any long term relationship. And admittedly some people are fine in a marriage where you live each other like family but do not have the romantic feelings to desire sex with that partner.

The affairs to me do not necessarily point at her desire for more sex, but her pursuit of a desire that is unknown because she hasn’t bothered to do the work to figure out what it was she was seeking. My biggest guess? External validation. That is usually present in any affair situation.

Regardless of what is or isn’t, it’s not a statement about your desirability in general and as others have pointed out there are plenty of people who are out there who you could have a beautiful relationship with.

I agree with blue at this point the digging for more is not needed. You can say "I am not happy with this relationship" and it be about the present as much as the past. That’s enough to leave or require her to do some work on herself before you will agree to work further in your relationship.

And I will add, that if she doesn’t know how you feel- there are some things you should continue to work on in therapy for your own sake- things like why are you avoidant? Why can’t you express your feelings? Is this situation dependent? Even so you have been with her long enough for it to be engrained and to give you baggage you need to put down before moving on to another.

I will also say emotional intimacy is a key fuel to continued physical intimacy in a long term relationship. If you hide your feelings you also contribute to the lack of connection which is something you do not want. I am talking generally, not stating you should be the one to change for her. I am saying this as a way of promoting you to learn to prioritize and respect what you want and need, and to pursue it without fail- regardless of the outcome of this marriage.

You deserve to have the life you long for, and getting therapy may help you find some of the barriers within you that can hold you back from getting it.

Thank you all for your thoughtful replies and advice. If you've read any of my other posts, you will notice that I'm saying the same things again and again and am not currently making any progress. This is, without doubt, the most difficult situation I've ever been in in my life. At the moment, I just want to lie down and go to sleep and, when I wake up in the mornings, I struggle to get out of bed, because I have another day of pretending to look forward to.

You're right that I don't need any more "evidence" to make my mind up what to do. Not knowing is an incredibly uncomfortable place to be, and that's why I want to know whether she had any other affairs.

I've rarely, if ever, felt more demoralised. It occurred to me only very recently that my WW's affair happened when I was in the most difficult period of my career as a teacher, worse than any other time in my 29 years in the profession, from which I'm now retired. I was going into school in a nearby city and taking abuse from the students day in, day out.

There's not much else to say at the moment; anything else would just be more repetition. I'm not expecting IC to give me the strength to take the necessary next steps, but to uncover the strength which I hope is already there, and to work out a way to get my wife's attention so that she understands exactly where our marriage is: in a critical state. The only maxim I have at my disposal is that of Winston Churchill: "If you're going through hell, keep going."

Eric,

Did You ever ask Your WW why she stays with someone she feels nothing for, is she willing to live like that for the rest of her life?

I know there are many patronizing excuses WWs give or they try to just say nothing. But it's hard to avoid the feeling that the affair and the deep attachment continues.

Eric,

The evidence is useful in that it might allow your WW to free herself for the lies she is still holding in.

Possibly acknowledging the ugliness of what she did in a deep rather than superficial way, and purging the OM from her fantasy bank.

What consequences did you rain down on OM?

Just make sure that finding out more isn’t a red herring.

Don’t get me wrong, I believe you have every right into know the truth about your life.

What I mean is, don’t hinge your actions on it. I feel like maybe part of you wants to find out there is more so you have a tangible thing to point at in order to leave. The lack of sex thing is enough but it’s understandable to be hesitant to bring that up because the fear, if you truly want out, is that she will improve that are enough to get you back to a stage of complacency and then it will fall off again.

Make sure that you have the two things separate in your head- you deserve to have the truth AND can still leave at any time even if you fear your reasons will not be understood or acknowledged by her. In essence, making you seem like the bad guy to her and others close to you.

You are allowed to address both things, and even if she was completely on board, it maybe the interim time caused your heart to harden and your love to die. And that’s valid, you are not the bad guy for finally wanting out.

Did You ever ask Your WW why she stays with someone she feels nothing for, is she willing to live like that for the rest of her life?

I know there are many patronizing excuses WWs give or they try to just say nothing. But it's hard to avoid the feeling that the affair and the deep attachment continues.

My wife doesn't feel "nothing" for me. She loves me; I know that. She tells me all the time and is very clear about it. People reading this may think I'm deluded on this point; so be it. I think she has issues around sex, which I can only guess at, but here are my theories.

She's very attractive, even though she's approaching 60, and still turns heads. A few nights, the husband of a cousin, a guy of about 40, was saying repeatedly how much he was attracted to her*, that his friend felt the same, and what did my friends say when I got together with her? He never quite uttered the words, "You're punching above your weight," but that was part of it, for sure. Now - so what? Well - bluntly - an attractive woman can have sex whenever she wants. I think my wife had regular one-night stands when she was in her 20s/30s. No problem. And I believe she was quite relaxed and direct with that, i.e. if she fancied a bloke, she's just say, "Right, you're coming to bed with me," and I bet she was rarely turned down. However - this also probably meant that for every man she was attracted to, there were ten or twenty others who were trying to get her into bed who weren't interested, and this was probably going on constantly. That kind of constant attention - though some people would probably say they'd love it - could be very wearing if it went on for years, which it probably did. Also, there's a fair chance that, at some point, she has been raped or sexually abused. I know she once said (not to me, but I overheard it) that she has been in at least one situation in which she "couldn't say no" (i.e. the man was going to have sex with her whether she consented or not.) So, I wonder - did she choose me because, consciously or subconsciously, she knew she could say no to me, and be done with all the bothersome sex? Clearly, this doesn't account for the affair(s), but it could be a factor.

She has given me some clues lately that she has been, in her adult life, treated as a sex object. Clues only, probably given subconsciously, not to be over-interpreted, but that's a possibility and a reason why she might want to avoid sex in our intimate relationship.

Some women - and one contributor here (can't remember who) has expressed this with admirable clarity - find their sexual attraction for their partner plummets once in a committed relationship.

Or, alternatively, she might have married me based on our definite intellectual attraction and realised, too late, that she'd married someone she wasn't sexually attracted to. Or - none of the above. What does Occam's Razor say?

Furthermore: her mother had an affair when my wife was (I think) in her teens, and her dad, great guy though he is, is not a particularly strong character, at least socially; I think my wife struggles because she can't feel as proud of him as she'd like, and I think women have a strong desire to look up to their fathers. Psychology tells us that we're attracted to what we find familiar - did she see something of her father in me? A man who would tolerate infidelity and just shut up about it? (Clearly, so far, she's right about that.)

About a year after we married, my wife made a very serious attempt on her life. It wasn't a cry for help - she meant it to work. I don't, to this day, really know why. I know she'd be devastated if we were to separate.

I'm very happy for people to engage with what I've said here, and offer perspectives I might not have noticed but, even if what I've said above seems inconsistent and contradictory, please remember that people can be highly inconsistent and irrational, as is the case in some affairs.

(*About 48 hours after this event, it occurred to me that I should not have allowed this man to talk about my wife in that way and, if it happens again, I will stop him. He said this in front of his wife (my wife's relation) also - but that's their business.)

The evidence is useful in that it might allow your WW to free herself for the lies she is still holding in.

Possibly, but even if I have more details, she can still deny it and claim it was a malicious and false accusation by the AP. If I do find out more detail, I'll try to obtain evidence, but I have to accept it's unlikely I'll find any.

What consequences did you rain down on OM?

Effectively, none. I saw an episode of Frasier in which Martin Crane eventually admits that his wife had an affair. He said he had a "quiet word" with the other man. That's what I should have done but I'm not comfortable with the possibility of physical confrontation, so I didn't. Another mistake. Also, after DDay2, the AP harassed my wife to the extent that he was arrested (but not charged) and I felt any sort of confrontation, or making his life difficult, would have had bad consequences for my WW. This is it, though: we're thrown into an incredibly difficult situation with no idea how to handle it (or at least I didn't) and little support; though I have to be honest and say that I ignored what little good advice I did get from a couple of friends.

I was feeling at an exceptionally low ebb last night. Today, I feel slightly better but still fragile. I know I have to have a very difficult conversation with my wife soon. I know I'll struggle with this. The main issue - and the only one in which change can occur - is our non-existent sex life. Judging by our 20 years of married life, I'm not optimistic that she'll be able to participate in a meaningful sex life which means I need to face the very real possibility of divorce - which will be horrendous. Of course, I have to give her some time - a limited amount of time. And, along the way, we have to talk, something we've not been good at. Tonight, she wants to book a holiday for September: perfectly reasonable (in her eyes) and we can afford it but, to me thus far, that has meant committing myself to several more months of pretending. Well, I'm trying to look at it differently and thinking, "We'll be having our difficult conversation in the next month or two. By the time the holiday comes round, she'll understand exactly what's at stake."

This is such an incredibly difficult and stressful situation and, given it's taken me 15 years to come to this point, I feel like the ghost of Jacob Marley - only here to warn others what will happen if they don't act.

The only maxim I have at my disposal is that of Winston Churchill: "If you're going through hell, keep going."

Look up the term "thought terminating cliches". In difficult and complex situations, our brains seek comfort in simple heuristics, or maxims if you will. But none of them are ever applicable in all situations, and Churchill’s war rallying cry very well may not be useful in relieving your pain. You may need to be more calculating than that to get the relief you deserve.

Agree^^^

I have had to learn to have difficult conversations, as a fellow avoidant. The lack of having these conversations caused a heart sickness that was very hard for me to recover from. In fact, I feel my avoidance was one of the biggest areas that led me towards an affair. I couldn’t say the things that bothered me, and I couldn’t bring myself to ask for a divorce. I am not saying that’s what you will do, I am only commiserating the sickness of holding your feelings in can bring.

It takes practice. Forcing yourself to be honest is a risk. However, you have come to a place where you are willing to lose the marriage which is the only way it can be saved.

On the other side of this only positive things will eventually come after some pain either the two of you will learn to truly connect-emotionally and physically, or you will be free to find that in another. Or at least not feel as lonely. Because nothing is lonelier than feeling that way with your partner right next to you.

Agree^^^

I have had to learn to have difficult conversations, as a fellow avoidant. The lack of having these conversations caused a heart sickness that was very hard for me to recover from. In fact, I feel my avoidance was one of the biggest areas that led me towards an affair. I couldn’t say the things that bothered me, and I couldn’t bring myself to ask for a divorce. I am not saying that’s what you will do, I am only commiserating the sickness of holding your feelings in can bring.

It takes practice. Forcing yourself to be honest is a risk. However, you have come to a place where you are willing to lose the marriage which is the only way it can be saved.

On the other side of this only positive things will eventually come after some pain. Either the two of you will learn to truly connect-emotionally and physically, or you will be free to find that in another. Or at least not feel as lonely. Because nothing is lonelier than feeling that way with your partner right next to you.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:40 PM, Thursday, May 29th]

However, you have come to a place where you are willing to lose the marriage which is the only way it can be saved.

Maybe I'm not quite there, but it's where I'm visualising being, and where I hope to be very soon, after 15 years.

I wish it were possible to have a life-coach who could whisper advice in my ear, telling me when to act. My worst mental habit is to have a perfectly reasonable thought, then there's a second when I could choose to express it - but I choose not to, then I feel the moment's gone, and it's always harder to express that thought when it's lost its natural spontaneity.

A particularly difficult aspect of my situation is that, sometimes, my wife will sense something's wrong, and will say, "Are you alright?" My thought then is usually, "No, because you had a torrid affair which I had to read about, and you'll do just about anything to avoid having sex with me," but what I usually say is something like, "Oh, I'm just a bit tired."