SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Legatus - I have not posted on here in quite some time. Not actually sure why I came on here today as I am now almost 4 years out from D-Day 1, almost 3 years out from D-Day 2, and a little over 2 years out from D-Day 3 - the last one - and a little more than a week away from moving out of state and out of our house, on my own, finally. Maybe it's because I am so close to a move that was delayed over a year by COVID? Maybe it's because I was meant to see your post? Either way, my circumstances seem to be similar to yours except that my WH (I will use that abbreviation although we are not now married as everything gets so long otherwise) admitted it was a PA before he was willing to admit it was EA too. Only after I recorded all the "I love yous' was he willing to admit it was more than just sex.

I was gaslighted, tricked, lied to on a daily basis for a year after d-day 1 and then another 6 months following d-day 2, and likely after d-day 3 but I never bothered to figure it out. I had my career nearly ruined AFTER D-Dday1 passed due to the emotional toll it took on me and all of the detective work I was doing that sucked up so much of my daily life - their A stopped for a few weeks and then it was back on after d-day 1 which became clear to me as time went by. I didn't want to believe someone could do this to you even after being caught - False R is the WORST!! He never admitted to anything until caught and he never was able to cut off contact with her (he tried to transfer and COVID froze transfers and hiring in his weird field - this is one of the few things I know to be true - that and the fact that his job is basically non transferrable to anything that will pay him even 25% of what he makes now - these facts are where the knowledge of the actual truth ends for me). He and his AP still work together now but it's very uncomfortable as everyone at his work knows about the A now as he admitted it when asked to confirm the rumors, which was also a big step he took after d-day 3 (she and her H - the OBS all worked with my WH at the time of the A and before - he was friends with the OBS and was even in his and the APs wedding). The AP and the OBS have divorced recently and many people he used to call friends look at him with disdain. Due to COVID he and the AP did not see each other at work for 14 months and I don't think they had any contact, but now they are back to working together again. I have no idea what contact they have with each other. I don't care.

I had to get to the point of acceptance that I would NEVER know 100% what actually happened. I never will, no matter what I do, and not only because he is not trustworthy, but because you just can't know everything - it's not possible. When caught my WH didn't usually lie about what had happened up until that point - in fact he gave me more info than I even had and admitted to things I could never find out no matter how much digging I did (I too am a pretty good digger - when I was in private practice as a lawyer I worked several cases that required years of forensic computer/digital analysis and I learned a lot of the tricks, but more importantly, had access to people who know a lot more tricks than my WH).

Like you, I also got the point where the "love" I had for him was gone. I can't say exactly when it happened. It was sometime after d-day 3 and after the day 6 months later where my WH told me he wanted me to move out immediately because he was tired of my being sad all of the time. He wanted the old fun me back and shockingly I just wasn't in the mood for that. I couldn't snap my fingers and make it all go away. So I acquiesced and started to move (the house is his pre-M so in a division of assets/legal perspective I would not get any of it - so if anyone was going it was me) and prepared for about 3 weeks. We came to an arrangement regarding my staying for longer to save money to move and/or him paying for me to move out, which I did not want to do as the thought of him paying for me made me feel like my pain was being bought off somehow. In that time period he "changed his mind" and wanted me to stay. IDK if it was because I was really leaving or some fucked up way of trying to drag me back just to see if it could be done, but either way, he changed in ways he never had before. It was too late at that point for me - but that is not my point for you (except to validate your feelings of a loss of love - sometimes it comes back and sometimes it doesn't).

My point in telling you all of this is to validate how you are feeling. YOU WILL KNOW WHEN THEY ACTUALLY CHANGE. YOU WON'T HAVE TO GUESS. IT WILL BE OBVIOUS.

My WH all of a sudden started bringing up the A, and apologizing instead of getting defensive or placating me with some one liner apologies that didn't seem sincere. I wanted them to be sincere, but they didn't meet what I needed. I told myself I was being difficult. He is not me. We don't do things the same. And all of that is true. But even with our differences, when the shit really hit the fan and I was leaving, he managed to know what to say and how to say it. IDK if it was manipulation or not on his part initially, but now, (and for the last year and a half to two years) it's clear that he means it. He's told his friends and family - even his daughter (his daughter from years before we met) - and not because I asked, but because he needed to. He's done all sorts of things I don't need to detail here - the point is it's CLEAR he wants to change - and not for me - for him - and that's the only change that works - what we do for OURSELVES. That's the lasting part - that's the part that sticks to your ribs.

You will know it when you see it. The fact that you are not sure how to take your WW's words and actions tells you all that you need to know - they are not enough for you - there is something "off" about them. That's fine. That's because there is something off. I'm guessing that "something" may not be anything you can put your finger on, but it has something to do with a lack of sincerity and humility and grace - the shit that's real. The shit you know when you see it. The actions that won't magically fix everything but that you don't have to question their honesty. You will know them when they happen. Trust me. The thing is - they may result in you feeling that "there is nothing that can be done for ME by her to fix this" or they may be in the form of "there might be something she could do to work though this but this isn't it - it's not all of it - it's not right/it's not enough" and you may not even know what can be done. Regardless of whether anything will be enough for you - when someone wants to change, you will be able to tell they are sincere in their desire to change and their acceptance of their actions - all of this is not only part of remorse, but of their own personal healing. You will know it when it happens. You can trust me on that one.

Will she change? Can she change? I certainly don't know. What I do know is when/if she does, you won't question her motives. It won't fix the hurt, and in my case, it didn't bring back the love. It was too damaged. It's been too much for me. It's sad as we spent this summer together and things seemed so much like they used to be (the ease in which we interacted, the laughter, the feeling like the best of friends again, like before the A) but I can't find myself wanting it all back. The damage is too great. It may be for you too, or it may not. That's not for me to say. Far greater damage has been done to other marriages that managed to find their way back than occurred in mine.

I wish you all the luck in the world and the speed of healing. My D-Day 1 was in October of 2017 - crazy but I'm not sure of the actual day anymore. It was the 4th or the 1st (can't recall as D-day 2 was almost 1 year to the date later - and it was the 4th or the 1st). For SO LONG that day was part of my identity. Now, I don't even know what day it was for sure, and when I first started typing this I had to think back - was it 4 years or 5 - 2016 or 2017 as I didn't know - HOW GREAT IS THAT?!?!??!?!?!

You will get there. Trust yourself and do what you need to do for you, and breathe.

EDIT: I'm sorry for the typos and the rambling - I really wanted to respond to you and didn't have much time to do it and I was doing it from my phone so I made a mess of it. Hopefully it's legible enough.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 5:40 PM, July 24th (Saturday)]

Thanks for taking the time to share that. Especially typing it out on your phone.

As far as the edit to the list. I added this intro paragraph and added a new ending paragraph. I would have worded it a little differently now, but I’m happy with it.

You've asked what you can do. Even though I feel like if you were really done having an affair you would have researched and started to do these things on your own, here is a list. I've spent years working hard to determine if you've been honest with me. You've spent years working hard to hide the affair. My work is done. I'll be curious to see where you direct your hard work moving forward.

Last paragraph

Don't confuse these things as an agreement to forgive and forget. I don't want you to respond saying you'll do any of it or telling me what you won't do. I'm not at all interested in your words. They mean nothing at all to me and I can only depend on your actions to show me the truth. The list contains actions cheaters take when they are truly done with the affair and are focusing on the marriage. Resistance to anything listed is an indication that Barry is still your primary attachment. I will not be checking in with you or asking about progress on anything listed. I am no longer pursuing you. You need to decide what is best for your own self care and move in that direction.

Edit for typo. The ones I noticed.

[This message edited by Legatus at 6:06 PM, July 24th (Saturday)]

Legatus,

Looks like you're handling this pretty well at this point. I'm skeptical your wife will comply with all the elements, especially coming clean on the physical affair (it is stunning she won't admit this given the details of her recent trip) and agreeing to perform a polygraph, but it will be interesting to see how she handles it. Regardless, proceed with the divorce full steam ahead - hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

Good luck!

[This message edited by BlueRaspberry at 6:37 PM, July 24th (Saturday)]

OP - those two paragraphs are well written and clear. Your wife has no excuse being wishy-washy about their meaning.

The hard part now is holding strong to the attitude you had when you wrote that. Your wife is grade A manipulator, be hard for most men not to wobble.

Keep your nerve in the face of the nonsense she might throw at you.

Who knows, maybe she'll finally take things to heart. As you wrote, it will be her actions not words that will tell you.

Maybe let her know that if she is really against the polygraph, then it doesn't really matter. She said she would do anything but this thing that you suggest, something that might rebuild trust she refuses.

Let her know that you are beyond worrying about the first or the last time she was inappropriate with Barry...it's too little too late. Any poly result will not change your mind.

Also she asked you what to do, if she wants to do something to heal, each of you make a list of 6 things that you think would help and then share them.

I bet she can't come up with three.

MickeyBill2016 - I like your idea. I’ll hold that In my back pocket for now. Right now I don’t want to give her any guidance or make any requests outside of the ones that have to do with the 180.

I’m not sure where she is on the polygraph right now. I suspect she would agree to it, but wouldn’t actually follow through. I mentioned the polygraph after she disclosed they had emailed each other again. That’s when said they emailed each other one day briefly a couple months ago and that’s it. Not sure why she used email instead of the secret word doc. Probably got lazy since I hadn’t asked to see a device in 8 or 9 months. I was impressed by her honesty until I realized she only admitted that because she thought I would likely find the email.

The next day I found the remnants of the word doc when I did some data recovery. I’m remembering now , when I asked her why she contacted him after all this time, she said it was because I had asked her around that time if she communicated with him and it got her mind thinking about him. Got it, it’s my fault. That was only two or three days ago, but I didn’t recognize that statement for what it was then. This forum has been my secret weapon, or maybe body armor, learning how to pick out the games and manipulations and to not fall into the trap. She did honor my request to sleep somewhere other than the master bedroom. She always refused that in the past. I think me not falling into her manipulations is really throwing her off balance.

Edited again for my typos

[This message edited by Legatus at 9:32 PM, July 24th (Saturday)]

she said it was because I had asked her around that time if she communicated with him and it got her mind thinking about him

“If you stop asking about the A, the A will stop. If you continue asking, it will force me into another man’s arm”

Infidelity is abuse. You are being abused. I suggest you start drawing parallel between your situation and those abuse cases you investigate.

[This message edited by ShutterHappy at 9:54 PM, July 24th (Saturday)]

I see the opening snd closing paragraphs. They are very good But not the list itself. Did you post it?

When did/will you give it to her?

She is still just in self preservation mode. And that is for her lifestyle only. Not family but how it affects her.

What is the deal with the male co worker? A budding EA to go with Barry? I believe she threw that out to Barry to make him jealous.

She needs to be doing the heavy lifting but she is asking you to tell her.

Give her the D papers now.

She previously saw you as weak that she could do as she wants. Now there is fallout from her conscious decisions to put Barry at the top of her relationship ladder.

Hard 180, be there for the children then yourself. Be a grey rock relationship wise. She is starting to see you as a strong man and not her doormat.

Presently she is not R material. She is too self absorbed.

One day at a time

I've been watching Tom and Jerry with my kid and reading this thread reminded me of a scene in it.

Spike the dog is tied to his doghouse and Tom goes over and pretends to understand his situation and empathises with him. Instead he's using it as an opportunity to measure exactly how much rope Spike has.

Tom measures it, walks away and marks that distance on the floor then torments Spike safely behind the line he worked out was the boundary on how far Spike could get.

It's a bit of a tortured metaphor but it's exactly how I see Legatus' WW. She feigns understanding and empathy to measure exactly where the boundary is. Legatus reveals the "length of his rope" and she uses that to act with impunity.

I never thought I'd be citing Tom and Jerry to give advice here but you know how Spike reacted? He waited until Tom wasn't looking and moved the line closer. Tom went right up to the line again, thinking he was safe but really the line had moved and his pushing right up to the line backfired.

Move the line, don't let her do what she did before and do just about enough to satisfy your needs for reconciliation. Don't let her toe the line she worked out was your limit. Either she goes waaaay over and above or you reveal she's already stepped past your line in the sand. Show her she can't guess exactly where your limit is and do the bare minimum to reach it.

Kindern's example is good for explaining the situation, but my suggestion would be to unchain, not move the line.

Mate no disrespect intended

But why are you doing all this to yourself.

Throw the letter she sent you in the trash. Here is why:

-The letter is entirely focused on her feelings; it’s a pity party on paper.

-She takes no responsibility for herself; everything is her mother or her OM’s fault.

-She talks about her OM constantly through out, more than she mentions you… the husband who is the recipient of this letter. Even as she tries to disparage him, it’s apparent that she’s obsessed with him.

-She doesn’t say anything about quitting her job, so you’re supposed to be cool with them working together.

-There’s no acknowledgment of any of the specific things she has done to hurt you and ruin your marriage. She speaks of all her betrayals in very general, vague terms.

-She still has the audacity to make demands of you. Even though these demands are phrased as begging, she is basically saying that you need to take her at her word that the affair is over and stay married.

-She doesn’t acknowledge all the second and third chances you already gave her. She doesn’t believe that even the chance to have another chance is something she needs to earn.

-She seems to think that once her affair is over (if it is indeed over and not just on pause) everything will just go back to the way it was, as if nothing happened.

-She says “love” can fix this… no specifics about what she is going to do earn your relationship back.

-She talks about your foundation of trust, your past experiences together, and your love as if these are things that haven’t been obliterated by her actions.

-She concludes the letter with a last ditch effort at manipulation and also a veiled threat… give your “family a chance.” The subtext, of course, is that if you don’t, then you’re the one responsible for breaking up your family, not her.

-She clearly thinks you’re an idiot and that it would never occur to you that she wiped her laptop.

As for your letter, do not send it. You should not be spelling out what she needs to do to fix the relationship. If she has time to read Ester Perel, she has time to do her own research to figure out what she needs to do.

Also, you’ve already seen that she will basically do the bare minimum of what you ask her to do and then find ways to cut corners after you have let your guard down.

Lastly, you’re perpetuating the teenager-parent dynamic that has defined your relationship since this affair began. She hasn’t had to take responsibility for her own behavior because you are policing her… and then she delights in outmaneuvering you. You have to stop the cycle.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 8:49 AM, July 25th (Sunday)]

The Tom and Jerry example is great.

Stevesn- I sent her your list verbatim, except I added the beginning paragraph and replaced your last paragraph with my own. I also replaced he/him with Barry.

The point about mentioning the other coworker to make Barry Jealous is likely right on point. Hadn’t thought about that though till you mentioned it. She mentions the coworker more than one in the context of me being concerned. I’ve never gotten any weird vibes about the new coworker. But I did look into it when I looked for Barry stuff and nothing came up. I think she’s a one affair at a time type of gal. I can’t imagine there being any room for another guy given how obsessed she’s been with Barry.

She did follow through with not sleeping in our bedroom last night. When I went to go to bed there was a card on my pillow with “sweetie” written on the envelope. The card had a sad donkey on the front and said “sorry for being an ass”. Inside she had written things similar as the big letter she wrote. Not sure if she thinks that’s going to do the trick by itself or if it’s part of a larger effort.

For me it was empty and a little insulting. As if the sad donkey card she got from Target was going to help reduce my pain at all. Rather than it being a synopsis of her long letter, I would have hoped she would have at least made some grand promises regarding actions she was going to take moving forward. When I came downstairs this morning she said good morning, and I really got the feeling she thought the card made things better. I think she’s waiting for me to snap out of it.

Anyways, back to Tom and Jerry. She has no idea where the line is now. She couldn’t know because I don’t know where it is or if there even is one. I’d normally be asking her a lot of questions right now and still spying to see if she’s discussing all of this with him. I have t been doing any of that because I feel it doesn’t matter anymore.

I may have said this before, sorry if a repeat. For her there was an upside and a downside to the affair. For me it was only downside, unless you consider me knowing what a self centered manipulator I’m married as to an upside. Right now there’s no upside in my mind to stay in the marriage. You’ve all said it and I believe it, she’s still focusing all her efforts on minimizing her downside and really doing nothing to minimize my downside.

[This message edited by Legatus at 9:59 AM, July 25th (Sunday)]

For me it was only downside, unless you consider me knowing what a self centered manipulator I’m married as to an upside.

Don't be so certain there isnt an upside. This traumatic moment in your life will prompt some serious growth in you, in ways that difficulty only can. Think of it as your crucible and the dross is being removed. You have a choice now, on how you will move on. Will you let your WW define you or will you now begin to live a truly authentic life. I'd recommend Rohr's book "Falling Forward" as a guide on living the second half of life. Really makes sense of the purpose of the shitshow that is the first half.

Thanks for clarifying. Has she said she will start working on the items you listed? Has she mentioned them at all? Have you seen her working on a timeline?

Again I am not saying that if she does any or all of these things that you have to promise her anything. She should be doing them because she wants to do them to try and rebuild and not just because you mention them.

In fact she should be GIVING YOU A LIST of what she plans to do to make changes and fix herself and help you heal. She needs to drive this.

Cards on the pillow are frivolous. Nothing wrong w it but not too helpful.

Beside that I’m wondering what she’s saying.

If she does give you a timeline I’d be interested in what it says about physical contact between them if anything at all.

By the way, I have a list of questions for her that I’d like to discuss with you. I’ll send them separately. It’s something you’d want answers about and I’d let her know (not ask, tell her it’s required if there’ll be any possibility of R, even if remote) that you’ll be scheduling a Poly to test her answers.

Sending you thoughts of strength.

She did follow through with not sleeping in our bedroom last night. When I went to go to bed there was a card on my pillow with “sweetie” written on the envelope. The card had a sad donkey on the front and said “sorry for being an ass”. Inside she had written things similar as the big letter she wrote. Not sure if she thinks that’s going to do the trick by itself or if it’s part of a larger effort.

For me it was empty and a little insulting. As if the sad donkey card she got from Target was going to help reduce my pain at all. Rather than it being a synopsis of her long letter, I would have hoped she would have at least made some grand promises regarding actions she was going to take moving forward. When I came downstairs this morning she said good morning, and I really got the feeling she thought the card made things better. I think she’s waiting for me to snap out of it.

I think you'd be wise to consider what it is you're trying to accomplish at this point. You are angry, and rightfully so... but what do you want to happen? Your WW isn't going to just magically start doing things right. WS are a whole lot more fucked up than that. It takes time and it takes work for them to get better. And it's understandable if you don't want to hang around for that. If that's the case, why wouldn't you just hire an attorney, file for divorce, and move on?

If you're going to try R, or even if you're on the fence about R, you're going to need to engage the process. Otherwise, you'll end up spinning your wheels and seething in silence. Unless you're doing the 180, which you would only be doing with a recalcitrant or still cheating WS, you should respond to your WW's bids for communication. A card isn't going to cut it. We all know that. SHE, however, does not. You don't have to tell her what she needs to do, but you would do well to tell her that what she's doing isn't good enough and hopefully WHY it isn't good enough.

You and your WW have been in this power struggle for what?... two years? longer? But she has apparently capitulated, meaning that she's willing to take direction and criticism. If you're not using that to your advantage, what are you accomplishing? Conflict is only bad when it's not constructive. Otherwise, it's OPPORTUNITY. You can't repair broken relationships without it. Unless you have decided on D, there's no reason not to tell her what you think when she makes these bids and comes up short.

You're going to see a bunch of people here at SI who will cast a lot of aspersions and a lot of hate toward your WW, but the facts are that no one here knows for sure what did (or didn't) happen. You're in a good position right now to force the point by requiring a polygraph. I have to think that there's going to be a huge difference in treatment based on whether your WW legitimately thought this was a "friendship" or whether there was physical intimacy. It IS possible that your WW has been fighting you for two years on this because she thought she was right. If you're SURE you want a divorce, it might not matter to you. But if you're not, you really would need to find out exactly what it is you're being asked to forgive.

Legatus

For me it was empty and a little insulting. As if the sad donkey card she got from Target was going to help reduce my pain at all. Rather than it being a synopsis of her long letter, I would have hoped she would have at least made some grand promises regarding actions she was going to take moving forward. When I came downstairs this morning she said good morning, and I really got the feeling she thought the card made things better. I think she’s waiting for me to snap out of it.

It is insulting - it's trivializing things and trying to get a laugh out of you. I think it indicates just how deficient her view of the sheer amount of pain she's caused you is. She literally has no idea how she's traumatized you. I think that's probably why she continues to do so. She just doesn't get it.

Anyways, back to Tom and Jerry. She has no idea where the line is now. She couldn’t know because I don’t know where it is or if there even is one. I’d normally be asking her a lot of questions right now and still spying to see if she’s discussing all of this with him. I have t been doing any of that because I feel it doesn’t matter anymore.

It might not matter. I feel as though the two of you are in two completely different realities. She will give you lip service as to how badly she's abused you but I don't think she has the faintest idea how bad her actions really are.

I may have said this before, sorry if a repeat. For her there was an upside and a downside to the affair. For me it was only downside, unless you consider me knowing what a self centered manipulator I’m married as to an upside. Right now there’s no upside in my mind to stay in the marriage. You’ve all said it and I believe it, she’s still focusing all her efforts on minimizing her downside and really doing nothing to minimize my downside.

I do consider that an upside - only because I realized I had similar knowledge of who my ex wife was and it enabled me to get a divorce.

At the end of the day she's not the person you thought she was...In fact, she's someone unrecognizable, someone full of malice wrapped in the sweet voice of your spouse.

“Sorry I was an ass” with a picture of a donkey is a cutesy way to apologize for doing something trivial, like yelling at you for not taking out the garbage. It’s pathetic and you have every right to be insulted.

I disagree with Chamomile Tea that you need to be communicating with your wife at this point. What is there to communicate as of now? She’s been dragging you through hell for over and over again; she can wait more than 15 minutes before having a relationship discussion.

There is no indication as of yet that she isn’t still actively cheating and i think you need more time to think things through. Your wife thinks you will eventually just cave in as you always have.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 6:16 PM, July 25th (Sunday)]

She has ZERO idea of what she has done to you,

And I highly doubt she will!!!

She might get a clue once she is served with papers. And she will STILL go to the grave saying that it never became physical, even after she fails a polygraph.

Glad to read you are moving forward.

Stay strong and good luck. And do what is best for you!

Never allow yourself to be disrespected. Do

What you must to be able to look the man in the mirror in the eye.