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Ha, it could never be because she was physically violent or a raging lunatic.

I'd never advocate physical violence.

However, given the emotional and psychological abuse you have documented here, do you think it's possible that he did the same (or similar) to her and eventually she lost her mind? Went goddamn nuts after years of abuse?

It's classic really. The abuser pushes and pushes and torments and finally the victim snaps and the abuser then claims "look how fucking nuts you are?" Gaslighting at it's finest.

Imagine a scenario where let's say someone is held captive. They are subjected to torment and abuse. One day, they get an opportunity to cause physical harm to their captor and they take it. Stab him, let's say, in the hopes of ending the nightmare. Would we say "oh violence is never the answer!" No, we wouldn't.

Again, not justifying what she did or didn't do but given the picture you have painted here, I'd be very reluctant to write off his first wife as some lunatic.

I think reframing some of what you were told is a really, really good idea.

[This message edited by TheEnd at 1:32 AM, Thursday, March 24th]

You know, my narc dad would do that to my mom. He would push and push her. When she would verbally lash out, he would be all smug, smirk and mock her for her irrational views.

My sister did the same to me for years. Until I snapped and found myself making a very concentrated effort to tell myself I didnt want to be a murderer, so I should probably get off her and stop strangling her.

Yeah, abuse can do some fucked up things to an otherwise innocent person.

I was 14 when I almost killed my sister by the way. Still living with the flashbacks.

Still honestly not sure violence is never the answer. Just depends on what the question was.

I've never thought of it like that. I mean, I have recently considered that not everything he has shared about her is true. But I had never considered that he was the one that actually made her lose her shit. But it does make sense because I feel like I am going insane some days. I don't think I'd ever go off and stab him or get in a fit of rage and just start screaming and smashing things or anything. But I do feel crazy.

I'm not totally sold on this theory, for a couple reasons. My husband's father warned him about her before they went through with the wedding; told him he should wait. Also, she was violent before they were married. She allegedly went at my husband's head with a hair dryer until he almost blacked out weeks before the wedding. He called off the wedding and then decided to go through with it. Also not totally buying it because she was so cuckoo long after they divorced. Wouldn't she have kind of detached from the bond and gotten even a little better?

I don't think I will really ever know those answers, and I for sure won't know them if I stay in this marriage. Clarity and healing will come once I leave.

I appreciate the challenging thoughts just as much as the sympathetic ones. It's all helping me get to the bigger picture.

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As I am writing this, I'm at work late. My husband was butt-hurt that I didn't text him all day yesterday or today. He was upset about me not coming home early to fuck him. And now he is upset that I didn't video call him tonight to ease his total paranoia about me cheating. He says he thinks I cheated tonight simply because I didn't check in enough. This is getting so fucking old. And I am now procrastinating going home because I feel a storm brewing. He says we won't fight, but I know there will be some kind of emotional punishment at the very least.

After I asked him if we would fight when I got home, he texted me "Ahhhh yes. Concerned about yourself, not worried about how you tore your husband to shreds tonight. No, [my name], we won't fight tonight. I'll be quiet and you'll do nothing."

If my lawyer had not said to speak with a financial pro before filing for divorce, I may be tempted to say what I want to say until he locked me out of the house again instead of enabling him. That seriously would be the easiest and probably safest way to leave.

[This message edited by soapt at 3:56 AM, Thursday, March 24th]

Your extremely abusive husband is your source of info about his ex wife. You truly have no idea if anything he told you was the truth.

Many husbands,when cheating will tell their OW that they are separated from their wife even when living with them,the marriage is over, wife won't have sex,wife is crazy and violent. It justifies their shirty behavior,and causes the OW to feel sorry for them. And we all can see how much your husband loves pity.

How did last night go? Are you safe? I know you said he would never physically harm you. I think you're wrong.

Where is your daughter, when you have to constantly fuck your husband to appease him?

I'm not totally sold on this theory, for a couple reasons

Both things can be true. She may well be a hot head with her own brokeness and he may have manipulated and abused the fuck out of her. Toxic stew. Also, while it's sad, some people never recover from toxic relationships and infidelity. The hold on to their anger and bitterness like it's a job. Doesn't mean he is blameless.

It's good your having the thoughts, questioning the narrative. I think it means you are waking up to your own thoughts and feelings. Keep engaging her!

Hi Soapt,

Are you ok today? I'm concerned because of what you posted last night. It might be a good idea to have a family member you can check in with on a regular basis. That way if they don't hear from you in a certain amount of time, they can get you help.

As for his ex, I agree with the others. Your husband is not a reliable source of information. She's also likely so far gone with her trauma as to be completely unreasonable.

Since you're likely going to D him (and I hope at MINIMUM S!!), it may be good to eventually write her a letter about your experience with him and an apology to her for the cheating you participated in when you were 18. You're both going to be connected to him through your children with him. It's likely her kids and your daughter will be seeing custody time together and you'll both need to compare notes on how he's parenting the kids. And work together to obtain the CS and alimony that you're due.

There's no getting around the fact that you participated in scamming his ex out of CS and alimony. That needs to be rectified in your D. She needs to file around the same time for a CS adjustment based on his current income and you need to file evidence that he shares responsibility for the company earnings on par with yours. I'm not a lawyer, but there's gotta be some way to do that. Maybe Catwoman can chime in- she's been around the D courts and has seen a lot. The scamming needs to stop and amends need to be made. It will make things more difficult for you in the short term, but it's really the right thing to do. For your own sense of integrity.

When my dad separated from his 1st wife (HS sweetheart he cheated on all through college), he and my mom started dating. To me it's a grey area whether or not its cheating when the D papers are already filed. Still, it's NOT HEALTHY and a RED FLAG. My mom actually was proud of herself that she forced my dad to give his ex the 1/2 of assets due to her in the D . I mean, that alone- that you would need to push this man to give his ex her MINIMUM due- would be enough to know not to marry him.

Hang in there, I'm hoping you stay safe and stay healthy.

First, I'm fine. Weird stuff happened but I'm okay. I don't have time to type it all out right now but I just wanted to quickly respond to your posts.

Where is your daughter, when you have to constantly fuck your husband to appease him?

Sleeping in another room, or if it's during the day my mom probably has her or she will be watching TV and playing in the living room.

To me it's a grey area whether or not its cheating when the D papers are already filed. Still, it's NOT HEALTHY and a RED FLAG.

I feel the same way about it being a gray area, sometimes when you're done, you are really done. In our case, at the same time it really wasn't healthy for multiple reasons. I know my husband didn't give himself a chance to heal or self-reflect on himself or his marriage. And as for me getting into it with him immediately, there are all the reasons you already know.

Gotta go for now. I'll see if I can post more about last night tomorrow.

I'm glad to hear you're doing ok.

didn't give himself a chance to heal or self-reflect on himself or his marriage

this described me a lot with my dating relationships. No need to heal or reflect, just move on to the next. And keep making the same mistakes, keeping myself numb to all the things I had to fix.

His flavor of abuse is different from mine, but really it's the same root- the mismanagement of shame. It's good you're seeing this now. It seems like you've really been growing throughout this and waking up to the woman you truly are.

I just saw this thread today and I am truly sorry I did not see it before now. You've gotten a lot of good advice here. You are in an incredibly dangerous situation right now. I do not think your husband has seen your thread here, I think he sees you clearly acting out of character, a bit stronger and he will do anything to keep the status quo. ANYTHING and that is what makes him so dangerous. He is extremely abusive, as was my father, including sexually with his wives although he forced them to have sex with other women they did not want to instead of men. I am VERY familiar with your situation by both watching him with the wives (and I saw most of it) and by being the child in that household. Covert narcissist's can be much harder to spot because they are very charming, engaging and lovely outside of the personal hell bubble they create within the walls of their own home, which they allow no one to see. I have always said my father could sell an eskimo ice. He was so damn good at maintaining a great image outside of our house. Inside was an absolute nightmare.

I want to chime in as a child in this type of situation (like your daughter and step-kids) for a bit.

My father was a narcissist. He didn't have the cuckold fetish, his was threesomes with women. The fetish may be different but the needs behind it are the same and FYI - I was aware of all this by age 8 and never said anything as a child. My father was fantastic to me until I was 12. Then I began to develop my own beliefs and thoughts and occasionally brought them up. They sometimes contradicted his and he'd BLOW! Now, my father may have been a different type of narcissist than your husband but you should know that routinely and often, narc parents either go off on or dismiss their teenage children because 1 - they can't entirely control them and the narrative anymore (teens see through the bullshit) and 2 - the narc parent isn't the sun and soul of their universe anymore. So, better discard or destroy them before they do you, right? That is exactly what your husband is doing to his older kids. He will do it to the daughter you two have as well when she is older.

All of what he has done with you is manipulative. Signing over the business to you was manipulative and love bombing! I know it does not appear that way on the surface but hear me out for a minute. 1- He gets to fuck over his ex, 2 - He gets to appear magnanimous with you...see how much I love and trust you? I am selling my business to you because you mean so much to me, you are so important, I trust you, I want you in my life long term. 3 - NOW HE HAS YOU UNDER HIS CONTROL and you aren't even aware you and appears to love you soooo much! A good, honest businessman would never have sold you his business while you were so young and without knowing how to actually run it. I do not say this to put you down in any way. I am sure you are intelligent and were very capable of learning the business over time. That said, you were too young to really run it, you didn't have the education necessary to take it over and this way he could always oversee you, and of course slowly begin the devaluation process whenever he felt it may be necessary. This was a move to control you! It was not based in love and trust. If you own the business and it does not thrive, you CAN'T leave is how a narc thinks about it. And how you have come to think about it through years of his training you to shoulder the mental and emotional load so he can be free of them. He had you hooked in good and solid and he knew it. Then he could begin the sexual deviancy part of his ownership and devaluation of you. AND HE DID!

He groomed you at an innocent age deliberately! You need to know you were not his love interest, you were targeted at 18 as an innocent so you could be trained to become exactly what he needed. My father did this with his last wife and absolutely destroyed her! She was also very young and didn't have experience with dating, the real world such as living on her own, working for a boss not family, dating and all of the other things young adults need to do to learn to navigate the world outside of their parent's home and the bubble of that environment. Most people learn a lot about others in those formative years. He had to get you hooked before you had any of those experiences or you would have seen through his behavior MUCH, MUCH earlier than you are now. His ex may have been messed up prior but he is a narc and their relationship had a heavily negative effect on her too so it is no surprise she has become entirely hostile towards him.

PLEASE, PLEASE read this twice. I know others have pointed out that you don't want your daughter to grow up and end up with a man like her dad. Many women do. But even without that, please know that life as a teen with a narc is NOT SAFE. Your step-kids can retreat to mom, your daughter can't. My father started beating the shit out of me, throwing me against walls and eventually at age 13 tried to kill me by throwing me across our foyer, through the living room, and against the back wall, punching me, dragging me up to the my room upstairs and eventually pulling out his 45 revolver, taking all the bullets out except one, spinning it and then shoving it in my mouth and pulling the trigger. I was very lucky to survive his tortured fucking show of absolute domination through Russian roulette! He then handcuffed me to my bed and told me that the handcuffs were going to be my home life until I was 18. I convinced my stepmom to let me out of the cuffs when he left the house go to to a bar and I packed a bag and fled! There is more to what happened but I wanted to give you the basics. My crime for that punishment? I wanted to spend a Saturday with a friend, he told me I couldn't so I told him I had to babysit. I lied. He found out....the above was the results. I am the only child he abused thusly in our family and it is because I was the only one he raised entirely. You have to get you and your daughter out of there for BOTH of your sakes. BOTH of you are in danger over time, even if you don't believe he will hurt her....he will if she defies or otherwise pisses him off as she gets older.

Your husband has the same need for total domination and control of you for now, maybe her later.... I knew by age 8 that noncompliance by his wives would eventually get them killed if they didn't flee.

Even if you have debts, it is worth leaving as soon as you can safely escape him, even if the business goes under and you have to file for bankruptcy.

As a young adult it took me years of therapy with a psychologist to face, deal with an untangle the nightmare that was my childhood. Please continue with the therapist even long after you escape him. He is your only real romantic relationship and you will need to deal with all he's done, heal and learn how to have a healthy relationship. It can be done and you can do it.

Also, complimenting you on somethings is normal. He has to show you some normal so you will think all his behaviors are normal. Keeping you on eggshells is a must to keep control. My father complimented his wives when they pleased him, me too. And when they didn't it was all gaslighting, threats..whatever it took to keep control.

I am strong. I blew up his world! In the end, I am the only woman in his life that won his stupid fucking game but I had to move half a country away and go NC for years (while getting heavy therapy to fix the damage), then only allow little slivers into my life on MY terms entirely until the day he died.

[This message edited by KatyaCA at 2:27 AM, Friday, March 25th]

but really it's the same root- the mismanagement of shame.

Exactly right. It all boils down to shame.

It seems like you've really been growing throughout this and waking up to the woman you truly are.

Thank you! I feel different!

Covert narcissist's can be much harder to spot because they are very charming, engaging and lovely outside of the personal hell bubble they create within the walls of their own home, which they allow no one to see. I have always said my father could sell an eskimo ice. He was so damn good at maintaining a great image outside of our house. Inside was an absolute nightmare.

Hi KatyaCA, thank you for reading my saga and replying. Your story is horrifying. While I can't relate to it all, this paragraph did resonate with me. My husband is so freaking charming, handsome, well-spoken, quick-witted, funny, a great story-teller, he pulls you into him and he's amazing at reading people. Even though he considers himself an introvert, I think he simply wears himself out around people because he cannot be himself with them, he has to work hard to maintain this charismatic, fun, wise, deep persona. He often exaggerates or flat out lies about things to others, even in front of me, when I know the truth (still I do not correct him but I always take note when he does it).

I have been reading and watching lots of videos on covert and vulnerable narcissism and it sounds to me like they are actually a bit different. If there is a true difference, I would say my husband falls in the vulnerable narcissistic category. From Dr. Les Carter's list for vulnerable narcissism, my husband is emotionally delicate, critical, has a constant need for reassurance, passive aggressive, sulky, has a huge victim mentality, he sucks the emotional energy from a room, and holds grudges for a very long time. I am learning a lot, and it is hurting my brain lol

Signing over the business to you was manipulative and love bombing!

I had never thought of that but you are most likely right!

His ex may have been messed up prior but he is a narc

I had a wild epiphany today and realized that in his previous marriage, I cannot think of one thing he admitted to me about being in the wrong. It was all her - "she was evil, she beat me, she wanted to fight all the time, she was unreasonable, she broke my stuff and laughed, she was crazy, she hit the kids, she accused me of stuff I didn't do, she ran to her parents after every fight they had, she wanted me to be home more, she wanted me to work more so she could spend more money, she refused to help in my business, she did this, she didn't do that, she was this way..." That may or may not all be true, but the point is... I can't think of anything that he said he thinks he could have done better. The whole thing was her fault. He even told me that when he was dating her, she wasn't bitter, she wasn't a psycho (but she was a little nuts), and she was very loyal to him.

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I don't have much time left to write out what happened 2 nights ago so I'll just briefly sum it up and maybe I'll put my detailed thoughts together another time!

2 nights ago:

As I am writing this, I'm at work late. My husband was butt-hurt that I didn't text him all day yesterday or today. He was upset about me not coming home early to fuck him. And now he is upset that I didn't video call him tonight to ease his total paranoia about me cheating. He says he thinks I cheated tonight simply because I didn't check in enough. This is getting so fucking old. And I am now procrastinating going home because I feel a storm brewing. He says we won't fight, but I know there will be some kind of emotional punishment at the very least.

After I asked him if we would fight when I got home, he texted me "Ahhhh yes. Concerned about yourself, not worried about how you tore your husband to shreds tonight. No, [my name], we won't fight tonight. I'll be quiet and you'll do nothing."

Basically, I worked late, didn't check in often enough, didn't video call him, and I felt triggered because I felt that we were going to fight whenever I went home. So I was truly procrastinating. He finally video called me at almost midnight (yikes) and we got into it. He wasn't yelling but he was gaslighting me, crying, accusing me of cheating, telling me I'm hurting him and now this night is one of the top 5 of his hurts. He was telling me how triggered he was because I was definitely cheating on him since I was hiding out for so long. Also. A big takeaway for me was he said something and then I told him I didn't say whatever it was he said I said, and he looked at me like I was nuts. I asked him "Am I crazy? I feel crazy" and he acted like he was going to cry and he said "Maybe. Maybe. I don't know." BOOM. I guess now I'm the psycho, just like his ex. The thought crossed my mind that I could have been gaslighting him, but then quickly realized that narcissists don't ask that question. I'm actually still asking that question though.

I went home and we "talked" more. He was on his couch in his home office in the dark. I asked why he wasn't in bed and he wouldn't answer me but told me he was triggered and I "obviously don't understand." A bit later he said he was done talking and he was going to sleep there. I said "I guess I should probably sleep on the couch with you." Bad idea. He was so upset by that comment, because of course I should be begging for his forgiveness, sleeping on the floor next to him, holding his hand all night, proving how much I love him and how sorry I was for ignoring him all evening.

Obviously I am digesting a lot right now. There's still more but now I have to go.

Thanks, everyone, I appreciate you all very much.

[This message edited by soapt at 12:02 AM, Saturday, March 26th]

When he's acting like that..when he's home alone with your child,and he's having a tantrum..your child is in danger. She is not safe with him. He's a lunatic.

I know you don't believe me. But we all see it. It's not just me.

You AND YOUR DAUGHTER are in danger.

Fuck the business. Your child is more important.

Grab your bag and your baby and RUN.

Read Katya's post, over and over. Ok,so there are a few differences between jer dad,and your husband. There are also a ton of similarities.

Continuing to stay is putting your life, and your child's in danger.

[This message edited by HellFire at 12:18 AM, Saturday, March 26th]

Everything ok soapt?

I hope you are doing okay Soapt

Just hopping on to quickly say I'm okay, just been very busy. Lots of little things happening.

I hope I have more time to sit down and write more soon.

Thanks for the kindness.

Thanks for checking in! I was worried about you...

I was also worried about you Soapt, I hope you are doing okay.

Okay so I have been super busy with work and getting ready for my daughter's birthday. Everything is okay (like not volatile) because since that day I stayed at work late, we had a talk and I've been getting love bombed. I think I've been getting love bombed because I have been faking everything. Now that I know who I am dealing with (a full-blown vulnerable narcissist), I have been manipulating him, making him think that I am thinking the way he thinks (we are such a great match, there's no one like him, we can't be successful without each other, bla bla bla). I also have tons of peace with my choice to leave. And I am more sure of going through with divorce rather than just separation. I cannot live like this for the rest of my life. So I'm kind of just keeping the peace because I no longer need him to be sorry. I no longer need him to see how crazy he makes me. I no longer need him for any kind of emotional support. He cannot give me any of that and never will. Narcissists do not change. They can become aware, but they can't change who they are. He refused therapy again (I asked him about it AGAIN). "Let's try this first." Yeah. I know what that means.

Recently I have found the self-aware narcissist Lee Hammock aka Mental Healness on youtube. I've been listening to a ton of his podcasts and I have a one-on-one with him on Tuesday. This has been consuming my free time, and rather than writing out my thoughts here, I have been learning from his perspective, because he himself is a freaking narcissist. His information is so valuable and validating to me, even more than all the psychologists' videos on that topic. Look him up!

I'm also getting ready to get a legal separation and temporary matters going. My daughter's birthday is days away and I need to be prepared.

Something I may not have touched on is that my husband used to be addicted to gambling. He would spend literally tens of thousands a year at the casinos, and then blame me for it because I mismanaged the business taxes. Literally people, he would say that since I didn't pay the business taxes, or I avoided it somehow (which is the truth, so I believed him), that is why he was so depressed that he went to the casino to escape. He would say "If you don't care why should I?" He would even take me to casinos for my birthday. MY birthday. He knew I wasn't a fan, it was his thing. How much more narcissistic can you get? A bright red flag I ignored for years. I'm thankful I can see it now. He has actually not been to a casino by himself for over a year, which is really a huge change he made on his own. But he still has other vices. Sex, alcohol, football, his sisters and brother in law, making money.

When my husband drinks to the point of slurring, he lets that rage monster out. Lee Hammock has a video on this and he explained that as a narcissist, they feel reserved when they are sober, like they can't be themselves, but if they have a shot or a little alcohol to loosen them up, they feel like a human, like they can be funny and happy. But when they go too far and get past tipsy, or drunk, that's when their real selves come out (rage monster). This is how they feel on the inside all the time and basically alcohol just lets it out. I've experienced this firsthand and I know exactly what he means. I guess I'm just learning all I can. It's so interesting and so validating. Anyone with a narcissist in their lives, look up this dude. He's also funny as heck.

I have a counseling appointment in 30 minutes so I'm going to go prep for that.

You sound like you're doing great, Soapt. I almost can't believe your progress since your first post. I mean I believe it and it is awesome.

One foot in front of the other and soon you will be free.

Thanks for checking in Soapt. It sounds like you are learning a lot to help you detach and cope with the situation and that is fantastic! I'm going to look that guy up for sure. I hope things keep going well for you, keep us updated!

So glad to hear you're making progress! I'm also sorry you're being stuck playing a role for so long. Please let us know when you leave him- check in. He's volatile and likely to lash out.

Do you have people who you can use for a safety check IRL? You're likely going to want to set one up as a daily check.