SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Haven’t seen counsellor yet. Appointment next week.

I’ve tried to describe her(WS) behaviours as best I can and be objective. I think what I didn't do well is describe mine.
I have been for years perpetually miserable, always angry, misanthropic, occasionally raging, always looking for a reason to blame the world for my misery, and COMPLAIN, OMG I could find a reason to complain about the second coming (like: what are we going to do with all books that are obsolete? That Jesus guy has some nerve!). Like a character in a comic strip with a black cloud hanging over him all the time. And I was like that ALL the time. I recall a young kid, a cashier getting a panic attic just looking at me standing in line. I was generally an awful person. I could hold a pleasant facade for a couple days but the "black dogs" would always return. And my now WS was always first in line receiving end.

Now that I think about it WS probably checked out of the marriage after the first affair. So there was me invested in the marriage as best I could. And for her own sanity and safety had taken on the roll of my caretaker. I was just another colicky kid that needed looking after.

Hardly conducive to affection and romance. And not very sexy at all.

Occasionally the black fog would lift and find myself gazing into the eyes of a person that had relegated herself to the roll of my baby sitter. I’d be hurt and confused at her ambivalence towards me, get frustrated and the black dogs would descend once more. Rinse and Repeat. I believe the experts call it Co-Dependence. (As a footnote to this I would like to point out that none of the marriage rescue material discusses the effect or how to resolve underlying individual emotional issues that definitely affect the relationship. end footnote).

I must emphasis that we both were receiving IC during this time. Her issues from childhood trauma have affected her to the core of her being. She has been treated and on medication almost as long as me. That’s why am prepared to cut her slack over some of her behaviour. I had really thought she had made more progress then it would appear now though.

In this way we both contributed to each other’s unhappiness.

TLDR: All the time she was looking after me and putting with a jerk and an asshole I was not able to do the same for her while she tried to work through her stuff. So I didn’t hold up my end of our vows either.

So there is a little more back story for you; my friendly internet humans.

That said, I have roughed out a plan(s) and will consult with my counsellor before proceeding to engage the required professionals.

I am trying to keep busy and keep things up. But the evenings and nights are really the worst. The dog is tired of listening to me blab on and on and I’m sick reading and tv. And I cannot seem to sleep for more than two or three hours. I try to limit screen time so I’m down to jigsaw puzzles.

Two Questions:
1) What does anybody do when you see or hear something and the first thing you think of is how your WS would laugh at, or what she would say? It’s like a gut punch. It’s one of the things I miss the most. Yesterday I made some horrible dad puns and wondered what horrible mom puns she’d counter with and had to excuse myself from the room and try and maintain my composure.

2)And: In a 180 situation would you change the tires on her car? In another couple of months it’ll be time to change the snow tires for summer. All eight tires are on rims so it takes me and my knees about an hour. The alternative is letting her make an appointment with a shop, Let her get the car and extra tires down there and spending $80 to pay someone else to do it. Why should I do it? Because I’m not a savage and it’s still our eighty bucks. Talk amongst yourselves.

I’ll update again in a few days after my appointment.

Thanks again for all the kind words and encouragement my fellow internet humans.
I really appreciate your time and efforts. As do all the random strangers I meet and are spared my ramblings.

As a footnote to this I would like to point out that none of the marriage rescue material discusses the effect or how to resolve underlying individual emotional issues that definitely affect the relationship. end footnote.

That's not a footnote. That's the headline. That's why the SI rule of thumb is IC first and foremost.

The purpose of the 180 is to help a BS detach so that the BS can short-circuit their co-dependence.

Doing the hard 180 means limiting conversations to finances and children. It does not include cooking for the WS. It does not include rearranging the BS's life to suit the WS. It does not include changing tires or oil on the WS's car. It does not include greeting the WS in the morning.

*****

You describe yourself as a person who was/is very difficult to live with. Especially difficult. You gave your W many reasons to D. Your W chose to stay M and cheat, though. Given your comments on her past, I can understand not having healthy coping methods, and I can see that you had lousy coping methods, too.

The sitch has changed, however. You're looking at healing yourself. To R(econcile), you BOTH need to do things to improve your mental health and behavior. You're doing it; it appears that she isn't. That doesn't bode well for a long term relationship. Again, at this point, you're looking at either stifling yourself for the rest of your life or making big changes in your relationship - after making big changes in yourself.

Infidelity is abuse. Your wife is an abuser. Infidelity is also traumatizing,soul destroying, and wrecks havoc on your self esteem.

I'd bet that her cheating has been a huge factor in your mental health issues.

She's a serial cheater. She won't have sex with you..for FIVE YEARS..yet has no problem laying down with other men.

You say she's had 3 affairs,but I'd bet there are many more that you don't know about.

Do not renovate that bathroom. So what if rent is expensive. She wants to live like she's single,then she can move out and be single. Otherwise she is using you as a paycheck,and having affairs. Stop allowing that.

Use that renovation money on an attorney,and file for divorce. Maybe she will pull her head out of her ass,maybe not. Either way, you're one step closer to freeing yourself from a woman who has abused you terribly.

Does her boyfriend have a wife? Tell the wife.

[This message edited by HellFire at 5:40 PM, Thursday, January 12th]

TLDR: All the time she was looking after me and putting with a jerk and an asshole I was not able to do the same for her while she tried to work through her stuff. So I didn’t hold up my end of our vows either.

Maybe you are a horrible human and an asshole and a bad husband. Maybe you do give clerks panic attacks. Maybe you're the worst husband who has ever said "I Do".

But guess what.

Even if all the above is true (which I don't think it is), YOU DON'T DESERVE TO BE CHEATED ON. Full stop. Nothing you did or didn't do excuses her CHOICE to cheat on her husband and her children. If she was that miserable, she had any number of other choices besides cheating on you.

The cheating is about HER and HER ALONE. It is about her lack of personal integrity and self-respect.

I was in a marriage with a man who never paid me compliments or put effort into our relationship. A man who made me feel small and unimportant. A man who used me for the better part of a decade to be the grown up and care for him and pay the bills and cook and clean and do all the adult things. A man who was a jerk and an asshole. Guess who cheated? Three guesses and your first two don't count. I got hit on and asked out and propositioned and all the things during the time I was with him and regardless of how shitty things were at home, it never, not even for a second, crossed my mind to cheat. That's what integrity looks like.

I have had some bouts of pretty severe depression. I know what it's like to look around and not be able to see anything worthwhile or good or joyful. I know what it's like to feel so ugly inside about myself. It's plumb awful, and I am so sorry you're dealing with that.

But I also remember how much of my personal depression went away when my unremorseful xwh left. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't all rainbows and cupcakes and unicorn farts, but it's amazing how removing a person that made me feel worthless and unseen all of a sudden cleared up a lot of my feelings of worthlessness. He was like a poisoned thorn in my foot; I was just so used to feeling crappy that I didn't realize how feeling more 'normal' felt until the thorn was removed. (Yeah, I'm one of those BS's that D'd and found out my life was pretty awesome without all the ws stuff in there.)

Of course I would encourage you to find a good IC for yourself that is trained in trauma and infidelity and to get on meds if necessary to help get you back on more solid mental footing. It sounds to me like you are maybe biochemically prone to depression, and if so getting on the right medication can make a world of difference. Likewise with sleep - I cannot understate the importance of getting good sleep right now. Take OTC meds or talk to your doctor about it.

But I know also for me that life situations like a horrible boss or, say, a cheating spouse, can really exacerbate my underlying stuff. So how much of your depression is in you and how much of it might just be because you are married to a serial cheater that has been traumatizing you and devaluing you and disrespecting you for years (make NO mistake, infidelity IS traumatic for the BS)? Just food for thought.

Also, just some advice, but I would not waste your time and effort and money on MC right now. If she is not committed to change on her part, she won't be in a headspace to be able to get anything out of it. And I can tell you from first-hand experience that a LOT of MC's do nothing but re-traumatize the BS.

Does she know/care that her affair(s) hurts you?

How did you deal with the affairs in the past?

Do you think her IC suggested her to go for it, when it comes to her affairs? (as you were a jerk all this time)
Do you thin k the kids know about ap and maybe even encouraged it themselves (again as you were the "jerk")

Do you know the ap?

So, she has been living part time in your home and you didn’t expect an affair, although she did have affairs in thew past? I don’t get it you say that you miss her but she has been living part time with ap all this time, shouldn’t you be used to her not being there?

Why do you torcher yourself, I get it you two where forever together but she clearly has moved on and chosen who she wants to be with.

Infidelity is a hell of a thing. It punishes you, strips you of your dignity, humiliates you, and hollows out your insides. I'm a divorce after infidelity advocate. It completely changed my outlook on marriage. Its a rare couple that comes out the other side intact. I stayed in the marriage because of a disabled child, and internally promised myself to stay till he turns 18, and emotionally capable of handling such a thing. It's been a loooong 17 years of waiting. (My dday was in 2006).

I guess we "reconciled", at least externally, but a day doesnt go by when the old fury doesnt rise like the tide in my gut. Not acute dday fury, but fury nonetheless. She was as remorseful as she can be, but in the end, some folks are simply not cut out for the aftermath of infidelity. Don't kill yourself trying to reconcile, you might not like what you wind up with.

I managed to catch a open appointment and see my counsellor today. It was quite a ride.

I had my plan for the appointment all laid out. Questions I needed answers to. And confirmation of the best way forward. I’ll have to confess that by the time I was called in I was a mess. I’m getting better at being aware of what sets me off and drives my mood and reactions. Turning over all the information gleaned in the last six weeks in my mind I was just overwhelmed by the sheer volume of emotions that I had to process.

When I regained my composure we had a very productive appointment. I managed to keep the "black dogs" at bay.

In a nut shell we agreed that I would do nothing as far as the marriage goes. Full on 180 in effect (not going to lie, this will be the hardest thing) and use my improved and stable mood to just work on me. No ruminating over the marriage at all. Find other things and places to bolster my self esteem, always a problem. Regular exercise (should help with sleep). Start taking the glucoid I can never recall the name of to get some weight off and ease the load on my knees. We’ll just see where this goes for now and let let the whole MC etc evolve at its own pace.

I’ve set up my first boundary! No you can’t have your boyfriend over. That’s tacky and gross. If she’s not interested in that then the house goes. A home without love is just a building with your stuff in it. I’m developing my own exit strategy in terms of finding another place to put my stuff and somewhere to live should the need arise. My counsellor feels that I might be poor in the future but I won’t be lonely for long. The idea of being physically held with passion and love again is really appealing. I’ve really missed it. But no dating yet! And yes, she can change her own snow tires!

I’m going to go dark here for a while. I’ll be concentrating on improving myself for a while, building physical and emotional strength. I’m supposed to lay off of thinking about the marriage completely for now. And, well that is (collective)your strength. I’ll pick up in this thread when I come back.

I can’t say enough how grateful I am for the efforts of my fellow internet humans. It’s obvious from your responses that you’ve all read my tedious posts thoroughly and have discerned the important facts.

Your sincere responses have been on point, well thought out and reasoned, and nobody had been too harsh. Really good advice that I have taken to heart. My counsellor chided me for turning to the internet but softened when I pointed out that I really did not have any where else to turn. And your advice has been on point. So, thanks for that.

"But for the kindness of strangers where would we be."

I’ll let you know when, and how things turn as soon as I know.

Keep safe, fellow internet humans.

So glad the counseling went well for you.

From your update, it's clear that you are keeping your head on straight--which is a LOT when you're dealing with all of this.

Even if you don't post here, keep journaling for your own processing and clarity. It will continue to ground you and remind you of what's important, what your goals are, and what is in your realm of control (and what is not).

Keep that focus on staying healthy for yourself--mentally, emotionally, and physically. You deserve this care.

Sending you support as you focus on you!

This isn't exactly "the Internet." This is a group of people who know first hand what you're going through. Collectively, we've experienced it all, heard it all, and read everything about it. We're not professionals. We always recommend professional IC. We're just here to support you as friends who have gone through the same things that you are.

When did you develop such a low opinion of yourself? Did you feel that way about your behavior over all these years, or is this an image of your behavior that you have developed as you heard from your WW about everything that is wrong with you?

None of us are perfect and maybe you're less so than some. But those of us who are codependent or just desperately want to save our M and stay with our spouse are very prone to internalizing all the negativity that our WSs cast on us to shift the blame for their A.

Likewise, your serial cheater W may have been manipulating and tearing you down for many years to enable and justify her As.

In any case, you're headed in the right direction. It's time to focus on you and a happy future for yourself. Whether your WW is worthy of being a part of that is something you can figure out in time.

You're doing great.

A quick update for those still interested. Been searching for a counsellor with out much luck. Im at an age where its tough to take advice from someone younger. They're all younger.

'The purpose of the 180 is to help a BS detach so that the BS can short-circuit their co-dependence.'

That's exactly how it feels. It's lonely as hell. I think she's broken her co-dependence too because I havent heard from her in a week. We'll see how OP likes it. I think she took my 180 attempt as a passive aggresive attack. It's obvious to me she's done with us.

Ive discovered that oddly enough she can't make decisions. She's done nothing until I started my 180. She would have gone on with out changing a thing until I started the 180. Aside from sleeping with other men she's not willing to do any heavy lifting.

As for my future plans. Im still looking for a counsellor. Maybe a marriage counsellor, if things change. I'll finish the bathroom so she can move downstairs. If she cant do without her other man then the house gets sold. Practically speaking it is the worst possible financial decision. Certainly not how I thought we'd be spending our retirement.

The getting on with my life took a hit though, I was ghosted by a group of guys I thought were friends. Mostly the other half of couple friends. That was a body blow. So it's hard to say if she's been busy or our friend group has chosen sides or remaining neutral.

There are a myriad of legal solutions available. The courts dont want to hear from you until all attempts at mediation have been exhausted. Im not interested in putting a lawyers kid through school so mediation it is.

So not alot has changed except for my attitude. Lonely as hell though. Aside from the dogs and the grocery cashier I dont really talk to anyone.

I find myself envioius of couples out together even though the last time WW wanted to go for a walk with me one of us was pushing a stroller.

As for my self esteem issues and depression they've been there as long as I can remember. I think it's called behavioural genetics.

Since dday though I seem to have been reinvigorated. My thinking has been clearer and its easier to keep a handle on the worst of my negative thinking. It's a weird feeling as I'm usually like a couch sloth this time of year. I'm continuing to work on myself,tons of reading, I am able to do longer walks/hikes now that my foot has healed, and am eating better (mostly).

So yeah, not much new here but I'm still hanging on.

I never thought that if I screamed into the void that anyone would answer.

Thanks again fellow humans. I'm grateful

Good morning FHPhilip,

Keep screaming, the void can hear you and will respond =)

Regarding a counsellor, I would urge you to give someone a go and maybe have a chat about your feelings towards them being younger. Counsellors don't tell you what to do so it shouldn't feel awkward in that way. Ultimately you may need a couple of sessions to figure out whether you think any particular counsellor will be right for you/you can open up to them. I actually started by feeling positive with ours and then going through a whole phase of sessions feeling like I actually didn't want to continue with them before having a bit of a rant in one session and things changing again from there. What I'm trying to say is that you don't have to stick with someone if you don't feel it's the right person but it might be beneficial for you to have a couple of sessions and see rather than leaving it for a long time purely due to the age of the counsellors in your area.

Regarding your loneliness, have you thought about joining any groups? You could find a walking group of like-minded and similar age people perhaps, or go try something you've never managed to make time for?

I've spent a lot of my life feeling lonely for one reason or another. What I've come to learn is that my loneliness is actually of my own making. There are plenty of clubs/groups I could join, I just haven't for whatever reason I had at the time ( money, free time/not prioritising ME, kids). I do wonder - if I joined a group for something I'm interested in and spent time regularly with other people being happy away from home, perhaps my WH would have made more effort with me? Perhaps I'd be more interesting? Who knows. What I DO know though is that I do need to do something for ME this year. You should do something for YOU too.

One last thing: people who ghost you aren't remaining neutral. People can still be friends with both of you, be supportive etc and not take sides or disappear. These people are not your friends/weren't proper friends. If you want them back surprise them with a message saying you've not seen/spoken to them in a while and wondered whether you've done something to upset them that they might want to tell you about because if so you'd like to make amends for it? Or, just sack them off and make yourself some cool new friends you can hike interesting mountains with. Personally I'd do the latter

I think it's great that you are willing to take ownership of your bad behavior in the past and are aware of your failings as a husband and father. But info like this...

But she also shrieked until I renovated a bathroom in the middle of a nervous breakdown. Right now I’m renovating another bathroom so she can move in there and not even leave the house and can screw ger boyfriend right underneath my bedroom. She doesn’t see why I would be upset.

...makes me think that a lot of your mental health problems might be exacerbated by the fact that you're in a really unhealthy and toxic relationship with a woman who not only doesn't love you, but doesn't even seem to care about you as a human being.

I know you desperately want to reconcile, but unfortunately, you don't have any foundation from which you can rebuild.

Now to answer your questions...

1) What does anybody do when you see or hear something and the first thing you think of is how your WS would laugh at, or what she would say?

I did exactly what you did... which was take a moment to process the painful feeling, excuse myself if I was around other people, and did my best to maintain composure. After enough time and out of contact, these moments became few and far between.

2)And: In a 180 situation would you change the tires on her car? In another couple of months it’ll be time to change the snow tires for summer. All eight tires are on rims so it takes me and my knees about an hour. The alternative is letting her make an appointment with a shop, Let her get the car and extra tires down there and spending $80 to pay someone else to do it. Why should I do it? Because I’m not a savage and it’s still our eighty bucks. Talk amongst yourselves.

Why can't Lover Boy change her tires? He currently has all the benefits of a husband with none of the responsibility; maybe he should bust up his knees for her.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 3:54 PM, Friday, January 27th]