SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Lost One, one of the things that was talked about on my date this weekend with the man I see that I have known for years is that our EX spouses hid very substantial history including sexual history from us. They flat out lied about things that they perceived would give them the upper hand in the relationship. I guess this is why they did it. Ex WH started, continued, and ended the almost 4 decades long marriage relationship with lies that could have cost me my life. And the truth could have been dealt with no lying needed.

The consequence is that I got STD tested like a grownup with a history—so I would protect his health. He lied to me and did not get tested (and he had engaged in much more risky behavior than I did while claiming to be a "virgin" before marriage).

What concerns me now more than knowing a potential partner’s "body count" is knowing that I am with a partner who cares enough about his (emotional, physical, spiritual) health AND mine. That would preclude them being a lying unrepentant cheater. I would possibly consider a wayward who had worked on themselves. But I have had a bad picker in my previous relationships that ended me up on this forum. So I am working on improving that.

Edit for grammar etc oops

[This message edited by Shehawk at 2:57 AM, Saturday, January 20th]

Isn't asking 'What's your body count?' or 'Are you a lying unrepentant cheater?' getting at the same thing? Who are you, what is your story, are you safe.

If the question is being used in good faith then answering in honestly will do both parties good. If the question is being used as a way to mock or ridicule then why would you want to have a relationship with that person? Both scenarios are informative to the person being asked.

That said 'What's your body count' is sort of a 2x4 approach and would not be a good question over a cup of coffee and a game of cribbage.

@Shehawk

What concerns me now more than knowing a potential partner’s "body count" is knowing that I am with a partner who cares enough about his (emotional, physical, spiritual) health AND mine. That would preclude them being a lying unrepentant cheater. I would possibly consider a wayward who had worked on themselves. But I have had a bad picker in my previous relationships that ended me up on this forum. So I am working on improving that.

Again, I think 'body count' is a fairly useless metric. I would agree with you about the importance of their emotional/physical/spiritual health (and their care for yours). That would definitely be among the things I would care about.

@JasonCh

Isn't asking 'What's your body count?' or 'Are you a lying unrepentant cheater?' getting at the same thing? Who are you, what is your story, are you safe.

Not really in my mind. Personally, if someone cheated - regardless of whether they are repentant or not - I'm going to weigh that more than how many people they slept with. I don't see body count as important. I suppose it could be a factor, regarding other important points. So, for instance, if the cheated with a dozen people, thereby increasing their body count by 12. I think that would be significant to me. Then again, the real significant point would be the cheating, not really the increase in body count.

I dunno. I guess I would also care if they purposely lied about their body count. It's not a question I would really ask anyway, so they'd have to bring it up. To then lie about it would be notable.

"Not really in my mind. Personally, if someone cheated - regardless of whether they are repentant or not - I'm going to weigh that more than how many people they slept with"

I'm the poster that originally sparked this conversation. The truth is that "body count" is a gross simplification of what I was getting at. This thread is slowly finding it's way to my actual point though.

What a person needs to know to vet a potential forever life partner is personal. In the original thread the case was a formally BH in a second marriage. I have a hard time imagining he didn't attempt to vet his new wife for sexual history and morality before becoming vulnerable to cheating once again. That was my point. If she falsely answered or intentionally omitted information to manage his decision she stole his agency. A false front was created to give him a fake sense of security and now it has blown up in his face. Commenters seem to believe this is "his baggage" and that the issue lies with him and I strongly disagree...IF he attempted to vet that stuff and she lied.

I'm the poster that originally sparked this conversation. The truth is that "body count" is a gross simplification of what I was getting at. This thread is slowly finding it's way to my actual point though.

I think I saw the actual thread, but I missed your post. I saw something about sexual history and commented in the thread. From what you've written (quoted below), I think we roughly agree.

What a person needs to know to vet a potential forever life partner is personal.

I completely agree - for example, I wouldn't care whether someone is religious or not, however I would care if someone was intolerant with regard to other religious views. Some people might require their partners to share the same religion as they are.

In the original thread the case was a formally BH in a second marriage. I have a hard time imagining he didn't attempt to vet his new wife for sexual history and morality before becoming vulnerable to cheating once again. That was my point. If she falsely answered or intentionally omitted information to manage his decision she stole his agency. A false front was created to give him a fake sense of security and now it has blown up in his face. Commenters seem to believe this is "his baggage" and that the issue lies with him and I strongly disagree...IF he attempted to vet that stuff and she lied.

I would agree with you here; if she lied to him, then yes, she's stealing his agency. That's one of the big problems with cheating, in my estimation. You always hear someone trying to rationalize; if they never found out that I cheated, then it's okay.

No, it's not. For a start, you're essentially gaslighting your partner by pretending to be someone you're not. Of course, there are a whole host of other issues that come along with cheating as well.

When I wrote my response in the prior thread, the thought occurred to me, what if the person simply lies about cheating? They say they never did. That's a possibility. I think that would be reprehensible as it's keeping significant information from their partner that their partner would use to make a choice about whether to engage in the relationship or not.

Honesty is high on my list of values. I want an honest partner. I'm also not the arbiter of what people should value, WRT their partners. It's not up to me to say that someone should look for the same values that I look for. Personally, I think body count is a stupid metric to use, but if someone wants to use it, then so be it. I would think that their potential partners would just as likely think that this sort of value is a red flag - again, so be it.

[This message edited by TheLostOne2020 at 8:20 PM, Saturday, January 20th]

You BET body count matters! A woman or man who has a history of not keeping their pants on to me denotes someone who, for whatever reason, has an inability to form long lasting bonds with their mates. IMO to think that body count doesnt matter is quite frankly ridiculous.

spouses hid very substantial history including sexual history from us. They flat out lied about things that they perceived would give them the upper hand in the relationship

Shehawk nails this.

My FWS, who had been married very young and divorced after a tumultuous 5 years, followed by 5 tumultuous years before I met her, did lie.

I let her know, up front on our first night together, for her benefit, that I had little experience, that my prior wife had sexual issues (which was not why our relationship ended). I had not had a partner in the three years since, not for lack of interested parties but because I had really loved my ex. She was shocked, she said she'd had "a lot more" (this was true), then she started lying and told me "like 70", and when I asked "why" she said "I really like sex" second lie.

I didn't care about her "number". I wanted to make sure that she was not married. I also did not want to get involved l with someone who had the same problems my ex had.

I also asked her if she was married, separated but not divorced, or currently in a committed relationship but not living with her partner. She told me she was divorced (true) and had recently ended a relationship after 2 years of on again off again episodes.

I also let her know about a problem at my workplace, and two prior workplaces, about a certain "type" of woman, that seemed to have a thing for me (these were all physically very attractive married women of a specific particular cultural background that is common in and around my profession). I had no interest in getting involved with someone who was willing to betray someone else (I had 4 instances in three years where I would meet one of these married or engaged women, who would immediately begin hitting on me, the first time I was flattered, then I eventually realized I was being viewed like a prize bull to be butchered in the end).

I let her know I had recently had to ask for someone to be restricted from working with me because in certain circumstances my work would occur at times when only two of us would be working alone late at night, and this latest married woman had been writing me inappropriate letters and pursuing me.

I let her know this for her benefit, and mine, so that if/when she heard something about it she would know what and why.

The bottom line, I let her know who she was dating, and how I handled my relationships. She lied, and did not truly reciprocate, while giving the appearance of doing so.

Honesty in the relationship is the key issue, from the beginning, to the end. Openness can come later, once trust has been established, but honesty should be up front and center.

It turned out she'd had 200+ partners, that she'd cheated in every single serious relationship, and was very troubled by sexuality but covered it with promiscuity. But what really troubled her was that I had truly loved my ex, despite the fact that we never had any contact again after our last meeting which was 3 years before I met my FWS, and I rarely mentioned her. I did have an old photo album, which I did not hide, but almost never looked at. This troubled her despite the fact that I loved her just as much as I had ever loved my ex, had children with her, and put her first above all else, year after year. She had this retroactive jealousy that she was not my first true love.

Ah, if only Disney would make a movie about our lives!

I’ve never met a man over the age of 30 who cares about "body count," which in itself is a gross term that makes me think about serial killers rather than sex partners. I just think that, among adults— particularly among people who have already been married and divorced— it’s a rather moot point.

More importantly, I think the number of previous sex partners is irrelevant in terms of gaging fidelity in a relationship. There are much more important factors to consider, such as:

-Does the person lie to avoid conflict or to get their way?

-Do they prefer to ask for forgiveness rather than permission?

-Do they make promises that they don’t keep?

-Are they trustworthy in their dealings with others, whether it’s business or personal?

-Do they have a constant, insatiable need for attention and validation,

Etc, etc.

Lastly, there are SO many stories on SI of people who were virgins when they married but still cheated, a frequent excuse being that they "missed out" when they were single.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 1:43 AM, Monday, March 11th]

Lastly, there are SO many stories on SI of people who were virgins when they married but still cheated, a frequent excuse being that they "missed out" when they were single.

Yes! My WW’s body count was zero when we started dating. She had her first affair before our first anniversary (unknown to me but suspected. She lied). Her "why"? She "never got to sow her oats”….

I’ve never met a man over the age of 30 who cares about "body count," which in itself is a gross term that makes me think about serial killers rather than sex partners. I just think that, among adults— particularly among people who have already been married and divorced— it’s a rather moot point.

For this one, I would argue "timing is important”. If (when?) my WW were to get divorced and we discussed "body count" with potential partners, mine would be higher. I have had 15 partners. 14 before I met my wife, then her. My wife has had 12 partners. Me and the 11 she screwed while we were married…..

[This message edited by ImaChump at 1:59 AM, Monday, March 11th]

Her "why"? She "never got to sow her oats”….

My response to this nonsense? Too fucking bad. She’s not entitled to waste precious years of your life to make up for her lost time.

My wife has had 12 partners. Me and the 11 she screwed while we were married…..

That’s precisely my point. If number of sex partners prior to marriage was considered the sole or primary predictor of future fidelity, than you looked worse on paper than her.

And yet you remained faithful and she was the serial cheater.

There are many such cases just like yours, unfortunately.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 2:10 AM, Monday, March 11th]

That’s precisely my point. If number of sex partners prior to marriage was considered the sole or primary predictor of future fidelity, than you looked worse on paper than her.

We agree on the initial marriage. I don’t really agree it’s a "moot point" for all of those "already married and divorced" if the body count was racked up in the previous marriage. Your other data points are great "key indicators". Absent coming out and asking "did your marriage end due to infidelity by you".

But of course, if my wife was honest about her body count with a new partner, she certainly wouldn’t be honest about when they occurred. It’s probably a "moot point" in that liars lie and she would either not disclose the real number, lie about when they occurred or get indignant at the line of questioning…..

Maybe they were onto something with the Scarlet Letter back in the day?

What about people who may have been wild in their teens, but found a higher power and did a total change? I am nowhere near the person I was at 19. People who know me have a hard time believing me when I tell them about my past.

I was upfront and truthful about my body count early in my relationship with XWH. He is a diagnosed covert narc and lied from the get-go. If I'd had the truth from him about his feelings in the beginning, I would not have continued the relationship.

To me, it's dependent on the person's situation.

Leafields, that’s why I said the # of partners is kind of irrelevant. Many people were wild when young and single. You were honest about it to your husband.

A different woman would’ve lied to her future husband if she suspected that telling the truth would mean the end of the relationship.

Idk if it's really that important tbh. I'd say that are vastly more important things I'd wanna know about a woman before knowing how many partners she's had. Stuff like 'have you ever been abducted by an alien?' or 'Can you crush someone's skull with your thighs?'

Not that the two example questions are necessarily mutually exclusive.

There is no single one thing that indicates that someone will cheat.

In MC, our counselor explained a series of things that basically boiled down to:
-willing spouse
-willing affair partner
-meeting at the right place and right time

The background to all that happening is infinitely more complex, it took her over an hour to lay all this out, and it is different for everyone. My wife had cheated before but hated cheaters, hated what she had done in the past, but didn't understand really why she did what she did. It took years to really unravel that aspect. She used sex as a tool, as a weapon, and as an escape from reality.

After she truly engaged in therapy, she found herself sitting in a parking lot reading a book about herself, which she said was like the author had followed her around since the age of 12 and written down everything that she had done. It was about Adult Children of Alcoholics. On top of that, she confessed to the drinking she had been doing in secret, before, during, and after the affair, and her counselor told her "that is alcoholic level".

She carried around hidden but intense resentment about the past.

Her "body count" was a consequence of all the things that would lead her to cheat in her marriage IF they were not dealt with effectively. Yes, they were a sign, but what to make of that sign? Especially if all the other stuff is being hidden.

People can and do change, for better or for worse.

She could have been a virgin who'd never kissed anyone, but with all the other things being the same, and not constructively dealt with, she'd end up cheating.

You can ask anything you want and so can a prospective partner. If it is important to you then ask. She or he doesn't have to tell you if they don't want, but you can also decide if you want to continue under that circumstance.

You can ask anything you want and so can a prospective partner. If it is important to you then ask. She or he doesn't have to tell you if they don't want, but you can also decide if you want to continue under that circumstance.

To be clear, I'm not saying that the question isn't worth asking, if number of partners is important to someone as a means of assessing compatibility. For example, someone who is a virgin might expect the same in a prospective partner. There are also people who are uncomfortable with the prospect of a partner who is less sexually experienced than themselves.

I just think that if the question is motivated by trying to figure out if the person will cheat or not, it's not going to work because (A) there are people who are virgins or with few partners who still cheat and (B) a cheater with tons of partners knows that refusing to answer the question entirely will lie about their number. They also know better than to raise a red flag by refusing to answer the question entirely.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 2:28 PM, Tuesday, March 12th]