SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

As I’ve said to others, to thank me for writing on SI is like thanking a drowning man for clinging to a life preserver. I did it for me. But I am glad that my story was a means by which so much wisdom could be poured out and so help others.

Your wife was unable to, ultimately, find empathy/true remorse. How do imagine the "Virginity Problem" might have asserted itself in the presence of empathy/remorse? Could that "casual disgrace" of something so precious to you still possibly have been too much, even in the face of her being genuine? Again..unfair question I know...and even beyond that, I know I am the only one who can make that determination for myself, but still, I can't resist asking. Men in our position (with the Virginity Problem as it specifically relates to being sexually betrayed) seem so, anectdotally at least, RARE, I just have to ask.

In the grand scheme of things, I think it was a minor factor for me. Like she used a serrated knife instead of a smooth one to stab me in the back. It’s maybe a little more damage. The stabbing is the real problem.

I don’t believe that it would have stood in the way of R if my wife had been remorseful and honest. There were much bigger things in my mind that I was prepared to overcome, and even larger had, in order to R.

I don’t hold the same sacredness view of sex anymore. The affair destroyed it, and I’ve looked back at my views of where it came from in the first place and found my reasons questionable. I still have a high view of it, but not the mystical divinity I once held. From your writing, it sounds like you’ve held onto that conviction. Maybe it’s worth asking if you are making too much of sex. Even the most precious thing can be over-valued.

Thanks for posting, wounded healer. I remember some of your threads and posts distinctly, and you come to mind sometimes and I wonder how you’re doing.

Our stories are different in many ways, but I think we come out of the same or similar culture around sex. I was raised in a conservative religious environment where sex was presented as sacred and where saving yourself and preserving your virginity for your spouse was presented as a very high and important goal. I think there was some good in all of it, because it acknowledges the beauty and importance of sex as an intimate, bonding force between human beings who deeply love and are committed to one another. However, I think the messages I got were entwined with a lot of misogyny, and that no important distinctions were made between a committed, healthy exclusivity and jealous control/ownership over a partner’s sexuality. I also think that over-sacralizing sex can keep people from having the more experimental, playful, casual (but still responsible) approach toward sex that allows an individual to figure out and be comfortable with their own sexuality. This may not be relevant to you at all, but I feel like it’s worth saying, at least, because I think we’re coming from similar backgrounds.

I don’t have the same virginity problem you describe, but I do think you’re onto something in terms of how infidelity impacts people whose sexuality has been exclusively or almost exclusively formed and shaped by a long term relationship that you enter into as a teenager/very young adult. My husband and I were 18/19 when we met. My sexual experience prior to him was 1) long term CS abuse and assault, and 2) non-intercourse sexual activity in two short early college relationships. (As an aside, one of those guys was gay; but we weren’t in a setting where he could admit that even to himself, so our relationship was a desperate attempt on his part to make himself straight. It’s actually heartbreaking to look back on that, and it’s another problem with the view of sexuality I was raised with).

My husband’s sexual experience was limited as well; he had sex with one high school girlfriend. In our super conservative Christian college setting that was something he was encouraged to apologize to me for by our pastor in mandatory premarital counseling sessions. Even then I thought that was silly, because I didn’t see myself as the owner of his sexual past, or he of mine. (CSA will give you a pretty jaded view of people waxing eloquent on the sacredness of sex).

Anyway, any healthy development of my own sexuality has been completely in the context of my 27-year relationship with my husband. It was rough starting out because I had so much baggage from the CSA, but we are (or were? Still figuring it out) deeply compatible in many ways in this area. We had normal ups and downs due to life circumstances, and his desire has always been on the higher side than mine, but our norm was reasonably frequent, good to mind blowing sex.

His infidelity wrecked me in this area, though. We had a long period of intense hysterical bonding after DDay, but once that was over I realized I had lost the sense of safety that had allowed me to be experimental and fun and playful and edgy in our sexual relationship. We have sex regularly, and it ranges from ok to good, but the free/playful/mindblowing stuff hasn’t come back for me, much to his dismay. I don’t really share your need for extreme detail about his sexual encounters with his affair partner. I wanted a lot of detail about the affair in general—I badly needed to get as many of the puzzle pieces together as possible—but five years out, I feel almost indifferent to the sexual details. I believe him when he says the sex wasn’t as good as what we had. But it doesn’t really matter, because the real issue is me and where I’m at in terms of my own sexuality and in our sexual relationship. As I struggle with that, I’m trying to feel the feelings and heal and move forward. I don’t know what the outcome will be. Sometimes I feel ok, and other times it feels depressing, though it helps that overall we have a really great, supportive, satisfying, enjoyable relationship.

This is insanely long. I’m sorry. The TLDR of it is 1) be careful of the line between a healthy, honest, exclusive relationship and owning/controlling another person’s sexuality, 2) focusing on your own healing and sexual relationship feels a lot healthier than dwelling on grand ideas of sexuality or hyper focusing on the details of her affair sex, and 3) there are some strong commonalities in the disorientation, long-term pain, and protracted healing processes among people who have experienced betrayal in a good, long term relationship that began early and has spanned all of their adult life. Also 4) I feel you and am so sorry for your pain.

Hey

I saw your post, and have a couple of thoughts. I am 60, and grew up in a conservative Christian environment where sex was for marriage only. I had 2 one night stands on my way to marriage, but the sex was really just a young man’s release-I used these two women ( and they used me as well).

My WW had a higher body count going into our dating relationship. That was ok, it all happened before we got together. We had sex for a year before marriage, and it was how I connected sex and love.

I think for Christian guys who don’t have a big body count, sex is a little mixed up. Sex is "dirty" outside of marriage is what we are taught. It’s not, sex is Gods gift to mankind. Sex is so much better inside a loving safe relationship. However, I know if I and my FWW divorce or she dies, I will continue to have sex with other women. And I think I will enjoy sex outside of marriage without guilt.

I read your story, and just a couple of things.
1. People get behind a keyboard and think they are F. Scott Fitzgerald and writing the great American novel. It’s mostly bullshit.
2. The second guy was probably lying about his penis. His wife had affairs, so he is building himself up. Your wife talking about your penis not measuring to his is bullshit. I know this hurt you real bad, it would hurt any guy. If your wife was truly unhappy with your penis, she would leave. She has already shown herself to be selfish enough. But she has not left and still accepts you-all of you-when you guys make love! If you have not done so, I would tell her how much this hurt you. As an aside, all guys want to think they have a big dick, but in truth, most guys are within a 1/4 inch of each other.
3. Get no more Mr. Nice Guy and read it. Determine who you are, and your wife can join you. Don’t try to meet her.
4. Masterbate. Yes, that "sin" we Christian guys are so embarrassed we do. Do it for your own pleasure, get to know your body. This is not to deny your wife sex, but to enjoy yourself as a man. God gave you the ability to do this, so enjoy yourself. Don’t use porn, just enjoy the experience. If you know your own body and what pleases it, you can teach your wife to please your body as well.

I know how the sex hurt. It sounds like you are not over that. It takes a while, and I thought about it constantly for years. For men, sex with a woman is the ultimate sign of acceptance, so ergo, so your wife’s sex with another guy is the ultimate form of betrayal.

After you fully process the sex, the emotional attachment she had to him comes next. That is what really hurt me-and still does.

I am 26 years out. The sex no longer matters to me. The fact she could risk everything for nothing bothers me. And she could so easily fire me as a husband when we had a good marriage.

Anyway, even though I was not a virgin, I understand your background and why you feel that way. I have not turned my back on my faith-it’s stronger than ever. I am just more realistic.

PM me. If you want, happy to chat

...isn't NOT feeling the feelings the ultimate goal here?

The metaphor that works best for me is:

Feelings are fleeting. That applies both to pleasant and unpleasant feelings. Emotions are reactions to what goes on in the here and now. An emotion is a bodily sensation, and one feels it and thereby processes it out of the body.

For BSes, then, healing is the process of feeling the emotions that come with being betrayed, which lets the feelings go. It takes a long time to process feelings from being betrayed, though, because they come in great quantity and intensity. Also, virtually all of us meet resistances to feeling and letting go, and often it's hard work to take those resistances down.

The ultimate goal, though, is to feel one's feelings as they come up, because feeling lets the emotions go.

*****

Most of us get tied up in thoughts about feelings, rumination, that keep us recycling emotions. Stephen Karpman saw that some people create 'Drama Triangles' out of their rumination.

Ending the rumination - the constant replaying of the trauma - is the ultimate goal, but ruminating is not feeling. It's a barrier to feeling. In fact, one of the best - if not the best - way out of rumination is to ask yourself and answer, 'What am I feeling right now?'

Keep asking until you get to a real feeling - anger, grief, fear, shame.

That’s amazing advice, Sisoon. Thank you.

Happy Weekend Everyone,

I'm away from a reliable way to fully respond to these very thoughtful replies right now, but am reading, reflecting, and will respond more fully as soon as I can.

Thank you all so very much,

WH

[This message edited by Wounded Healer at 9:05 PM, Sunday, May 25th]

WH,

Some will disagree but you are not out of Infidelity. Your wife's Infidelity is not physical or emotional currently but it lives in your mind and soul. It will always remain there! Currently you are consumed by her betrayals with no end in sight for you!

If you stay with her, be prepared to accept this is your life from now on.

Peace to you

Greetings again SI,

I have been absolutely swamped this post-holiday week and am just now coming up for air, but wanted to acknowledge, again, the help I've recieved in this post.

Hiking - Of course I can't thank you enough for basically going point by point in my ramblings with your compassionate desire to help me. Thank you. I am trying to take to heart your observation that, if we feel like and/or tell ourselves we have unique reasons to be deeply (deeplier?) wounded, or that the unique parameters of our situation will be significantly harder to overcome...that that can become self fulfilling. This is pinging some for me and I am trying to listen to it.
As you note, I probably do hold back some. If I had to venture a guess about some potentials there...I think I actually (weird as this is, because I do think I have been pretty visceral at times in my descriptions here on SI) think I am way more devestated by this than I am able to even describe here. I think I hold back some to kind of protect my wife maybe, too. SI is a collection of (lovely I might add) internet stangers here...and I still think I want to make sure I paint wy wife in a fair and honest/positive light light...but the reality is she behaved like a cheap and easy, low rent, piece of @$$. That's likely the worst thing I have ever stated in "public" about her. Weird, as this comes out as I type this. In terms of what I am still afraid of? Again, there's lots of potentials I think...but the one I'd give the best chance to is that I am afraid that this is a dealbreaker...and I do not want it to be. There. I said it. Also, I don't know if this is quite the same dpeth, but I do fear that I will never feel better about this. That I'll be stuck here until death does it part. So many other helfpul observations in your post...cognitive dissonace and my perhaps overvaluation of the affair sex they had. All helpful considerations of course. Also, thanks for the insights into what role you think your affair might have played in your husband's (destructive & inexcusable) response
of having his own. ALL greatly appreciated

Inkhulk - Thanks so much for the reply. So helpful for me to be able hear from someone somewhat in my shoes. It's interesting for me to consider that it was the betrayal that changed your view of sex. As you correctly note, mine didn't. Just sex in terms of my wife did. Thank you again.

Grieving - So much thanks to you for that sharing. I (possibly due to age/stress/trauma brain...as awesome as all that is) am bothered that I did not know or remember your CSA story. As I read your response, I could totally see how, being that your growth into healthy sexual experiences were completely in the context of your husband...that would be absoultely wrecking. I cannot relate to the CSA dynamic, but my sexual "self" being tied completely to my wife connects here. Wrecked. I am so sorry this has not come back for you.
I have been challenged before here (very respectfully) regarding the potentital hangups present in conservative Christian culture regarding a sense of "ownership" of one's spouses's sexuality as well as the misogynistic slants (at the least) that many corners of that religious culture has inherent in it. I have reflected deeply and intentionally through that specific challnege several times during this "stuckness" in this particular trap I find myself in and I just, humbly and honestly, can't see it. I sort of just barely dodged the "purity culture" bullet being an early Gen X'er. I think that whole thing didn't go full throttle until after I was married. That's not to say I wasn't possibly inflenced by it, but perhaps my saving grace, ironically, was that the church I grew up in...was kind of lame. Sex wasn't railed against...it was ignored. I know it's hard to imagine, but I truly feel like these things were somehow hardwired into me. I honestly just kind of decided my sexual ethic/approach/value system on my own as a very young man. Now, when I got to college it was there...the purity stuff and some of that associated negativity (99.9% of the "accountability" talks in my guys dorm was sex related)...but my general approach to sex (save myself for my wife for numerous reasons, but a big one being to spare her the "imagery" and associated assumed distress of me ever being sexual with another person) was formed way before then. If I am being totally transparent, I feel like I was born with some mate for life gene that I can't veto. It feels...weird.
I know it seems (at the VERY least) that I obesess over the sex...well...I do do that...BUT it doesn't feel to me like JUST that. It just feels like it's connected to semething way deeper that I still can't after all this time, identify. IC's have suggested abandonment, powerlessness, all the way up to almost personal/non consensual violation (which actually resonates some) but seems...idk...disengenous to people who HAVE been actually violated. I think I'm rambling now...but just wanted to thank you again for your very helpful and vulnerable sharing. It's very much appreciated.

Sisoon - I have been spending what little moments I have had since your reply honestly trying to parse the difference between a feeling and an emotion...while also reading (a little at least) about drama triangles. I'm not very far with either of those. I know, rationally, this is likely untrue, but any rumination I do seems virtually involuntary to me. I mean, I know how TRIGGERS work and how to do a decent job at avoiding spiraling from something specific...but this whole thing I have been talking about...the sexual part...just seems to be a fairly constant background track in my life. The trauma certainly DOES kind of repeat on a loop for me, but it doesn't at least FEEL like active rumination. It just seems to be running in the background no matter what else I am doing...even up to literal, intentional distracting myself. I will keep looking into the DT and the processing of feelings vs. emotions though, for sure. Thank you again.

I have run out of time (and functioning grey matter) for now. I thank each and every repsondent here. You are helping me.

Blessings,

WH

Wounded Healer - I have skimmed most of these messages, but I had a similar experience as yours where sex with my WW was pretty exclusive (but I wasn't the first person to her). So after my WW's PA, I decided to take some matters into my own hands: I hired a few very high end (and very expensive) escorts to see what sex with other women is all about. These women arguably have the best bodies in the world. Turns out .... sex is just sex. LOL. Everyone can just tell you that, but you have to experience it to know. And that was same for me. Now the sex part of my WW's A doesn't impact me any longer.

Again, this above is just how I approached this and just want to share here. Please don't judge. :)