SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I do t think k he did it out of revenge. He did it out of sadness. But all it did was end up destabilizing us further and I can’t think of a single way it helped anything.

I do not think a thing so destructive as betrayal can ever help anything.

Not even sadness likely, it can only deepen the hole.
It takes away, does not add anything.

I laughed it all, and she answered "maybe we should see other people", I laughed, told her "It's an excellent idea" sent her a link to tinder, and encouraged to find her next OM there.

She started to freak out. I told her I am done, do not care anymore.

It's funny/not funny how that works, huh? I played the pick me game for a couple of weeks after I discovered my wife's affair and she pretty much just continued to shit all over me. It wasn't until I made phone calls to divorce lawyers right in front of her that she changed her tune big time. Like your wife, my wife "freaked out" too, and started begging me to not leave. That was about 8 months ago and she's not wavered or changed since. Now she lives for transparency and to let me know she loves only me. She never wants to spend time apart now.

I've been wondering if she might be limerant with me now, too. She hangs on my every word and seeks only to please me now. It's actually pretty intense, and a complete change from her baseline behavior.

There's a difference between limerence and hanging on to someone you're about to lose and showing real and reliable love and desire.

I do believe that during her A, my W realized she wanted me a lot more than she wanted ow. After d-day, she showed it in ways that she had never done before.

Limerence was defined by the woman would coined the term as 'the feeling of being in love,' so maybe limerence is part of R.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:09 PM, Saturday, January 17th]

Limerence was defined by the woman would coined the term as 'the feeling of being in love,' so maybe limerence is part of R.

She is repeating how "we are 20 again" and how "I would do anything to turn back time and start fresh".

With stars in her eyes. All the memories, how we are repeating them. (her feeling, not mine anymore)

Is a dopamine flush, I think she might be experiencing it.

I've been wondering if she might be limerant with me now, too. She hangs on my every word and seeks only to please me now. It's actually pretty intense, and a complete change from her baseline behavior.

It's possible. I am happy for you.
For me, it is all I ever wanted, it might be too late.
We'll see

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 5:47 PM, Saturday, January 17th]

It is hard to exclude I might have been a significant cause in her decisions

You are not the cause of anything she did. She had choices. She choose badly. That is 100% on her.

None of us can make another person think, feel, or do anything. We all choose those things for ourselves. We may influence others, but we don't control them.

She has low self-worth and self-esteem. My H had essentially the same feelings about himself. He needed validation from others to feel good about himself. When he felt like he was a failure with me, he chose to get that validation outside our M.

He should've told me how he felt. He should've given me the chance to confirm or deny what he was thinking.

You are not the cause of anything she did. She had choices. She choose badly. That is 100% on her.

None of us can make another person think, feel, or do anything. We all choose those things for ourselves. We may influence others, but we don't control them.

She has low self-worth and self-esteem. My H had essentially the same feelings about himself. He needed validation from others to feel good about himself. When he felt like he was a failure with me, he chose to get that validation outside our M.

He should've told me how he felt. He should've given me the chance to confirm or deny what he was thinking.

Thank you cocoplus.

Please understand I did not say so from a place of insecurity or self blaming: I know my worth, if in the past I was "confident" (to a good extent it was true, I had traumas and insecurities but I was sure of myself) to day I am Confident.

I said that because with OMen, her previous boyfriends she never, ever, not once, gave signs of infidelity.
She was submissive, she was treated in a humiliating way, she was unhappy. But she was loyal.

With me she might have restored her happiness and self esteem, she might have find me exciting etc. But she betrayed and humiliated me and honestly, I did not know her or her previous men before me, but I doubt she received this much 'evil' from those guys as she felt entitled to bestow upon our relationship.

I can see girls and women "appreciating" me as an 'ideal partner', is not so bad, women with secure attachment are out there and I feel I could live a happy and fulfilling life with one.

With my wife, although she calls me her "only safe relationship" I might have had a paradoxically destructive effect on her.
And she does not like what she see in the mirror now.

Tomorrow it will be the first check with MC, I have no idea yet if it will be useful.

Her response is stressful, half hopeful and half not looking forward.
Apparently it should be useful according to her therapist.

First session a bit of introduction.

She minimizes, rewrites the narrative again, I notice her that she did, she admits to it, and she tells has no idea why her brain goes into automatic (she was not denying she immediately realized that it was not the facts, and asked 'why am I doing it?).

But then she crashes into victimhood, tears and how it is unfair for her.

Session ended, MC said there is a very complex issue.

She wants one separate session with each other next.

I am ok with it, let's see. I Asked her to go first to avoid any bias I can introduce.

I imagine it can happen that the first MC session is the betrayer in denial and self commiseration (or not?)'

She was very upset that I told from the start my current stance (as I see the present) is that I will divorce her because I cannot see her as safe or ready for a real R as for today. She asked if I am here just for our child and I said yes.

I only realized that while she can really feel shame and pain for herself she is not at all at the stage to understand the magnitude of the pain I suffered.

And I am not super happy, because to go back, I need to abandon my detachment from her to go through the story again.
And I feel every single emotion again, like it was happening now. I guess the only good thing is they pass immediately, relieving that kind of pain is physical, not a thing I want to go through too often.

Opinion from more experienced BS / WS on MC?

If it can help or makes sense I am committed.

But Fuck it hurts.
I forgot how much it fucking hurts.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 8:44 PM, Tuesday, January 20th]

So now, a second clinically trained professional has been left with the impression your WW's case is complicated, as I understand it. The problem with doing MC is that kind of counselor is not trained or paid to drill deeper into one "partner's" psychological profile. Rather, MC is designed to treat the Marriage as the client, so in cases where a serious psychological problem is flagged by a professional, I don't understand why an ethical MC would want to continue working with both people. Nor why you would "jolly along" with the idea that some "marriage coaching" can exert influence on each of you to fix what is going on inside one of you.

I did that immediately after D-Day 1 in 2002 and it was a big mistake: went to MC for two hour sessions each week with a Master's level intern (at a religious charity so it wasn't expensive) but after his year of internship ended and he had to summarize his work with us, both he and his supervisor strongly recommended in writing that my SAWH seek IC (which he never did; I learned the hard way that he he would only go to any counselling if he thought I was going to go along with him, like a crutch.) It was a waste of my time and emotional energy and my trauma was never adequately addressed even with 120 minute sessions for a year, since the counselor naturally got interested in trying to unravel the messed-up mental gymnastics going on inside my WH. There were times I felt like I was "shadowing" the counselor or even eavesdropping on a complicated, crazy mess, but this is NOT what I needed.

MC in many cases of infidelity places the wrong dynamic on both the helping professional and the client. The therapist often ends up "refereeing" "his" story versus "her" story. Round and round you go.

I wanted to go back to the mention of possible SA in the wayward’s background.

The OP said that his WW has not said this happened to her, but that her FOO was chaotic.

My personal history includes a chaotic FOO. It also includes SA by a family member.

And I never told a soul until last year. 62 years after it began.

I told my husband, after a lot of therapy. He had no idea before that.

So just because someone doesn’t tell, doesn’t mean it’s not a factor.

And today she had her individual session with couple therapy. She wanted to share it with me.

She was asked how many betrayals she did, so she was elusive about telling me and only mentioned about the 2 she admitted (the other I know of she still did not admit, or admitted to some than rolled back to denial instantly).

I only got the curated version from my WW, but still this is interesting:

- She does not feel they are betrayals at all.

What she feels about the first, the biggest one, the one who destroyed me for half my life:

I met this guy, and then she broke up with M (me), so it was something clean and normal.

A month later when we met (an she dumped me like trash), I was feeling powerful because I was, for once, the one ending a relationship and I had someone here to form a family instead of a long distance relationship.

When he dumped me 3 months after, I felt nothing for him, no heartbreak. I started immediately to miss M. (me) and felt that I lost him forever, so I went to him to get him back.

It was innocent because we broke up, I do not feel it was betrayal because I did nothing wrong, and we had sex only few times before breaking up with M. (in her mind with condom is fine).

I did not wanted to tell him or to admit to it because I did not want M to suffer.

When M presents me his version it makes sense logically, but I feel resistance to accept it.

I would like to be able to understand his interpretation of the facts, and I would like to ask you if it is possible that it was the cause of his collapse and PTSD issues the following 17 years.

This is why she feels zero guilt, she has no remorse.

I do not feel like I even want to comment right now. I see it otherwise, am I insane?

p.S>

By insane I do not mean I have any doubts. I KNOW what happened.

I know the lies.

I remember her joy and smiles on my pain.

I remember the hypocrisy and the disgust.

It was the most horrible betrayal I ever heard from other people stories or narratives.

17 years after, even if I am ready to walk away, to leave her for this, even if I am detached, going back to that memory makes me feel all the pain like it is now. It's in my body, is not just a memory.

But she tells it so convincingly, so candidly, like is a daily regular occurrence, that from the outside it sounds believable.

I find it honestly chilling.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 8:26 PM, Wednesday, January 21st]

Honestly, you find it chilling because it IS chilling!

Her "reality contact" is pretty weak. It is no wonder the red flags popped up with the counselors so quickly. This kind of light switch on-off emotional make-up strongly suggests a Borderline Personality Disorder . Do you need further evidence?

Honestly, you find it chilling because it IS chilling!

Her "reality contact" is pretty weak. It is no wonder the red flags popped up with the counselors so quickly. This kind of light switch on-off emotional make-up strongly suggests a Borderline Personality Disorder . Do you need further evidence?

It is the cognitive dissonance between how she is now with "I chose you - I married you - I love you"

and the lack of guilt that makes her apologies feel like "I am sorry that you felt hurt but what you think I did, I never wanted to hurt you"

or

- it was in the past, then I came back (true but then? So would it be ok if I sleep with a girl few months then come back like nothing?)

- We already talked about when I came back (cornered truths, sanitized version, she denied meeting him when we were still toghether, lies)

- I wasn't sure (right before every cheating, I counted 7)

- After marriage I never did (She had an affair right before, plus post marriage EA don't count in her mind)

- I told you everything (I still cannot get a consistent version today, and physical evidences I confront her with [even video] she still denies anything is wrong, meant nothing to her = is innocent)

- It was extremely hard for me to live with your issues (as in Betrayal Trauma, PTSD, panic attacks, physical collapse and depression, getting suicidal. Like I should be sorry I caved in after 15 years of this. I tried with all I had to soldier through.)

- You hate me, you have a lot of anger (this is how she interpret my detachment, silence and 'smiling off' her denial or attacks)

Her tears and pain are genuine as far as I can tell, I feel that. But is like dealing with a split personality.

The moment I open slightly and see this stuff coming from her, I have no other response than being detached, cannot help it, it is natural.

Feel like when a WP thinks she is a different person in a difference place now and a "safe Partner". With no guilt, no remorse, no acknowledgement, just "I need help to see things the same way of your interpretation"

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 7:17 AM, Thursday, January 22nd]

I wanted to go back to the mention of possible SA in the wayward’s background.

The OP said that his WW has not said this happened to her, but that her FOO was chaotic.

My personal history includes a chaotic FOO. It also includes SA by a family member.

And I never told a soul until last year. 62 years after it began.

I told my husband, after a lot of therapy. He had no idea before that.

So just because someone doesn’t tell, doesn’t mean it’s not a factor.

Just following up the new disclosures coming out from her yesterday individual therapy.

She said something that reminded me of what you wrote, it’s unfortunately sexual so it might be uncomfortable to read:

She always felt sex as something she has to do for the man.

She needed to feel used and abused.

She expected the same from me.

I had few times red flags about it because of her reactions when I only focused on her fulfillment and pleasure, like she thought something is wrong and is shameful to be made the exclusive object of attention. Like something is wrong if I wasn’t caring about my pleasure in a selfish way, impossible to make her believe it is not important.

That’s why she told she enjoys rough sex (which was never my thing, intense ok, rough just isn’t for me), and it was weird that I treated her as my equal, she didn’t understand the pleasure she had with me because it was unfamiliar hence wrong.

This completely changed today she feels in another galaxy and loves being treated as equal, so there was a switch at least at the body level.

Now I am not really sure this qualifies as SA, I know her ex boyfriend and the men she betrayed me with were abusive to her and humiliated her in every possible manner.

They are the kind of "man" I can’t stand for to long before having the impulse of planking them on the floor, and I know they can’t even look me in the eye because they are cowards, but that’s my personal disgust with that type of person (let’s forget the betrayals, this just adds a "pray you never cross my path for the rest of your life" factor), no matter how I feel I can’t tell if she got sexually abused by them because she was all in.

It’s unreasonable but still it makes my blood boil

Honestly, you find it chilling because it IS chilling!

Her "reality contact" is pretty weak. It is no wonder the red flags popped up with the counselors so quickly. This kind of light switch on-off emotional make-up strongly suggests a Borderline Personality Disorder . Do you need further evidence?

Thank you for the empathy.
She’s been diagnosed with emotional unavailability, she has this behavior that is very hurtful, but that happens exclusively with me.

In the rest of her life she is consistent, empathetic and very liked by others, you can say she is a people pleaser.

This kind of shit is a privilege reserved only for me (her exes or OMen from betrayals were treated like literal gods, she gave them all).

That’s why I am confused about the possibility of being a trigger for her traumas. I know all her flaws, but the question remains: perhaps without me she will find herself and someone who she can live with as a faithful, fulfilled woman?

In her entire love history I am the only constant when she went into this destructive choices. The doubt remains if it’s me the problem, because if that’s the case I must still do some work on myself

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 10:40 AM, Thursday, January 22nd]

BFTS, somewhere in your posts you described your wife's feelings about people relatively to where they exist in relation to her in a hierarchy. Apprentice - contempt, peer - envy, fear, boss - god.

Her childhood was devoid of genuine, pleasant, warm connection with her parents, so where her romantic relationships. The sexual experiences confirm that.

In your last post you described her as a people pleaser. A people pleaser is often focused on making others like them from a place of fear of abandonment. The people that depend on them in any way are less likely to abandon them, hence the trigger to please them is not present.

On the other hand, you in your fantasy that you described in your initial post projected a completely different persona on her. Diametrically different. If I understand your writing correctly, (sorry if I don't) you stuck to her, placed yourself beneath her, been submissive, needy, miserable, placed requirements on her that just didn't fit who she is, like demanding a chicken to fly and tweet and being very upset that it's not happening.

Lets look in the post where you describe how she can't see your point of view over the magnitude of her misbehaviour. I get her. Yes she cheated, but with the intention to dump you (with delight). Yes, she didn't tell you the full truth, but accepted a lot anyway. Yes, she flirted around, but didn't go in all the way. It could be much worse, so she was controlling herself. Your are a difficult person to be with anyway. She wasn't "that bad".

While you desperately wanted her take your inner child, pull him to her heart and love with the most devoted, warm, tender, passionate puppy love. And you were very upset and miserable to not get it.

Apart from the original lie, there was a big unspoken contract on both sides that the other side could not fulfill. I'm not an MC, but maybe going in the direction of writing down the unspoken expectations would help you to gain more clarity. It really sounds like there was a major mismatch from the start.

[This message edited by Itiswhatitis000 at 1:31 PM, Thursday, January 22nd]

I suppose there could be NPD or BPD, I believe superesse has some background that would recognize it. I have had similiar issues but have no reason to believe there is a personality disorder. I did actually worry I was a narcissist as I was having some tendencies surrounding the timeframe of the affair, but I think the key is whether or not these things have been moral or persist after a reasonable time to heal from the trauma you thrust on yourself in having intimate affair me with men who do not care about you whilst ruining your life and the life of those closest to you.

I think you believe you are detached but you are not. You are doing what many bs do because you are a loving person you are investing a lot in what she is or isn’t doing, is or isn’t saying. And you worry greatly about her and her experiences.

This is normal. I also think it’s super healthy to find a better way to truly detach more while she stabilizes. The reasons are a) it will help you mentally to focus more on you and your healing b) before the ws is more healed they can inflict hurt that causes resentment and disbelief that has a lasting effect into reconciliation if that’s a goal, or at the least a coparenting relationship after a divorce c) she doesn’t know herself yet and until she does she is going to need space to try on different theories as she deeply investigates herself (if she does).

If she is NPD there is no way she will stay with it. No chance space will be made for you. If she is BPD, I see that as a better case scenario.

And last, I fully agree with Sissoon. In an affair there is the layer of fantasy but you still know who the better choice is. It’s a very strange form of cognitive dissonance, and hard for me to understand much less explain. I was putting all this energy and effort in the escapism, but I knew I was married to the better man and the one that I wanted. I just thought I could not deserve him after what I had done.

Hyper bonding and really seeing what you almost lost is maybe not the stable love you want to build yet. You are right to be leary and not trust it, even though I suspect it could be very genuine. That’s on her to show consistent progress and consistency in her dealings with you and showing you that you are who she wants. That is the work of reconciliation. Right now, I think you are still in a recovery stage where nothing will greatly improve in your relationship until the two of you have gotten a little more healing behind you.

Two very good insight a lot to unpack I will try to be brief not to make a hodgepodge as my freeform Just Found Out story:

On the other hand, you in your fantasy that you described in your initial post projected a completely different persona on her. Diametrically different. If I understand your writing correctly, (sorry if I don't) you stuck to her, placed yourself beneath her, been submissive, needy, miserable, placed requirements on her that just didn't fit who she is, like demanding a chicken to fly and tweet and being very upset that it's not happening.

It is true, I had a childhood trauma that made me feel unlovable from birth. I still jumped into "first love" all in, open, accepting, equal, faithful that those feelings are a good thing and she must feel them too. Then she betrayed me in front of my eyes with her pedo ex boyfriend (I was 16, she 14, him 23. that was a real shock).

Emotional embargo for me since then, just dating and physical, no emotional, replacing connection with beauty and 'high value' girls.
I meet a "safe" girl, cute, but average, I allow myself a second relationship --> ends in betrayal ('soft dumping, unspoken' but still you feel and know there is someone else) --> not even "safe" girls can love me --> I should just give up.

That's 2 girlfriend out of 2, my "romantic" life was a disaster. I had a very low opinion about love and mistrust of women in general, I wanted a partner but did not trust they were honest.

Then I meet her and she is "different", I allow myself to connect with a woman again. When I see the red flags due to her insecurity and need for validation, I panic and do what you said. It's stupid in hindsight, but it was an instinctive reaction to what I learned through trauma.

She is insecure about her looks vs my look? I elevate her to goddess. She feels I am too intelligent? No way, you are smarter than me. She feels I am too confident and upfront? I apologize for breathing --> She is afraid I might leave her for another girl? I make myself super available and ensure she can check me any time of day and night.

Yes it is bad, I can see it now. Then it was a secure attachment turning into anxious attachment due to my past traumas. I have my share of responsibility for what happened. Still I was not a doormat, I have quite a strong character and stood my ground any time we had quarrels. She liked that. But also she felt hurt any time I showed my edge, so I was then relapsing into the "safe" boyfriend.

Lets look in the post where you describe how she can't see your point of view over the magnitude of her misbehaviour. I get her. Yes she cheated, but with the intention to dump you (with delight). Yes, she didn't tell you the full truth, but accepted a lot anyway. Yes, she flirted around, but didn't go in all the way. It could be much worse, so she was controlling herself. Your are a difficult person to be with anyway. She wasn't "that bad".

That she wasn't "that bad" is questionable. Maybe it feels that way to you.
What she did was one of the hardest kind of cheating to recover from, is "situational betrayal" intense, short lived, free of remorse. Lasted 3 months then she can back to me. Like in this kind of betrayals happens.
From my perspective not only "it wasn't that bad" it was worst than every betrayal story I heard of before (I am sure there are worse out there, no matter what, my life was destroyed since that day. The pain of that is order of magnitude bigger than the death of my mother, and I loved her incredibly deeply).

And then there were 6 more.... (that I know of)

While you desperately wanted her take your inner child, pull him to her heart and love with the most devoted, warm, tender, passionate puppy love. And you were very upset and miserable to not get it.

I could give them unconditional love. I saw her insecurities, I tried to elevate her, and I did succeed.
Yes my trauma might have longed for that, I can see that. But what I wanted then is way simpler: I wanted a clean relationships, you can have fears, insecurities and always know that I have your back. I wanted a loyal partner since we were planning a future together. This is normal, not trauma bonding (that came after the betrayal), I wanted a safe partner, I wanted to be chosen.

I wasn't.

Apart from the original lie, there was a big unspoken contract on both sides that the other side could not fulfill. I'm not an MC, but maybe going in the direction of writing down the unspoken expectations would help you to gain more clarity. It really sounds like there was a major mismatch from the start.

To the extent that I was having childhood trauma of being "unlovable" and 2 betrayal traumas on my back. and she had low self worth and need of male validation, yes, there were likely a mismatch.
Also true that I was naive (overconfident) in believing I could help her with all the validation and self worth she craved.
But for every other aspects of our relationship we passed to each other incredibly well.

I think you believe you are detached but you are not. You are doing what many bs do because you are a loving person you are investing a lot in what she is or isn’t doing, is or isn’t saying. And you worry greatly about her and her experiences.

Hiking I value your replies a lot because you proved many times to have a very deep insight into psychological and emotional matters.

When I say I am detached I do not mean "dissociated". I am detached, because I do not feel bothered by external events. In other words, will we Reconcile? Is fine for me, if she can put on the work. Will we divorce? Also fine, means she could not change.

These 2 outcomes have the same emotional weight. I have no attachment to any outcome, I live here and now, whatever will happen in the future is fine for me.

This does not mean I do not care about her, or dislike her (I had "the Ick" after the first betrayal, my body was disgusted to merge with her, I both craved physical connection and wanted to vomit after. It is a very weird and frustrating feeling. It went away since my change) I like her as a woman, and there is plenty in her that I like as a person and I admire.

And I do not like to see her to suffer, I want her to feel good, I care for her to feel good, like I care for you people in this forum to feel good.

So if I see her putting effort I am not closed to her. If I see her pulling away, minimizing, shifting blame, denial, etc I just do a natural 180 and stop caring immediately.

I am invested in her recovery and potential R if she is all in, she is the person I loved above any other in my life. I am just never going back to destroy myself to "fix her", first because I cannot do it anyway, she must fix herself.
Second, the peace I reached is rare and it costed me a very high price, nobody helped me, nobody cared about what I went through. I am not risking to lose it again for anyone.

You describe what seems to me to be extreme limerence. If that's accurate, perhaps your limerence is wearing off. I think Love and Limerence by Dorothy Tennov would probably be a good read for you.

What you describe above with respect to the individual session with your MC debriefing looks like 2 people with different views of the same 'event.' What are you seeing that I don't?

If you're going to R, I'd expect empathy, and I'd expect her to honor your point of view. I'm not sure I would expect her to change her view.

You're 2 different people, and each of you has your own experience. In the aftermath of d-day, I learned that my W interpreted many events much differently from me. It was good to get on the same page and to hear each other, even when we continued to disagree about an event.

It’s possible sisoon.

What happened is that after that she opened her emails and found out the exact date of her betrayal (at a party called unironically "sluts and Alfonso " ) and the communication between friends on her wild nights with this OM and her guilty feelings and disconnection from me, her lies to make it look less dirty, even she lied to other people when she was coming back to me rewriting the story to make it look as she never cheated.

She might had a different point of view. Hard to hold it when you have in front the evidence you wrote by your own hand.

Oh and by the way looking at the email another betrayal popped up (on me of course not the OM) so we are at 8 and counting…. Wonder where the number will end up

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 11:09 PM, Thursday, January 22nd]

"That she wasn't "that bad" is questionable. Maybe it feels that way to you."

I know that sarcasm doesn't covey easily through internet forums, so I want to specify that it's not how I feel, but I can see it from a perspective of a person that tries to minimize or has low standards (or likely both). You have definitely different standards.

Something very similar happened to me at a similar age as you, probably in a close time range as you, the difference being that I didn't allow her to hover back after she got dumped, though I was so much in limerance, as sisoon says, that a year after our break up, when I saw her on the other side of the street, I walked into a street light. If I did let her back in, I would experience similar or worse behavior then you did. I know it for sure, because I know her next guy.

I think that maybe certain experiences can be more harmful at certain stages of life then others. During that time I felt things that I never felt later in life with that intensity and some of them got etched into my brain in a way that is hard to fully erase. Maybe this is also a factor for you?

[This message edited by Itiswhatitis000 at 12:18 AM, Friday, January 23rd]