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I don’t see a man who is calm, detached, and planning his next move; I see a man who, after decades of being manipulated, has be become a manipulator himself as a coping mechanism. You are not going to divorce your wife; you’re just swinging the Sword of Damocles over her head because it’s the first time you’ve ever felt any power in your relationship and you know that the second you let up, she will treat you like shit. You enjoy that she off balance and the cycle of love-bombing and fighting; you finally feel like she cares.

You’ve insisted before that your daughter has no idea what’s going on and that this isn’t negatively affecting her. I call bullshit on that and on every other BS in a high-drama, high-conflict relationship with a malignant narcissist who insists they’re doing their kid a favor by raising them in a high-drama, high-conflict environment. Your wife uses up so much of your oxygen it’s a miracle that anyone under that roof can breathe.

Even if I take your word that you have no hope in hell of shared custody of your child, you could still live separately. And as Ink Hulk pointed out, it makes no sense that you would forfeit your legal right to money and assets when you could use those resources to support yourself, your kid, and perhaps any legal fight to remain in her life.

So unless you’re serious about Divorce, then remove that word from your vocabulary. If you’re going to do it, then just do it. Otherwise, make peace with the fact that who she is now is who she will always be and stop trying to delude yourself and other people that this woman is anything other than a lying liar who lies.

Because the truth is, your wife didn’t choose to stop cheating and chose you… she just ran out of other options.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 2:44 AM, Saturday, June 20th]

...unless you’re serious about Divorce, then remove that word from your vocabulary. If you’re going to do it, then just do it. Otherwise, make peace with the fact that who she is now is who she will always be and stop trying to delude yourself and other people that this woman is anything other than a lying liar who lies. Because the truth is, your wife didn’t choose to stop cheating and chose you… she just ran out of other options.

Pretty accurate and I hope you take it these words in the spirit they are given. MAKE PEACE WITH THE REALITY.

In other words, stop deluding yourself that her slow, incremental insights into her own F'd up history and psyche are going to somehow, eventually, if you wait long enough, and are patient enough with her, going to make you feel better about a solid future with her. What you're really expressing is that she failed the wife test. Take a major time out of this living together experiment and please stop taking advantage of the desperation she is showing.

You’ve insisted before that your daughter has no idea what’s going on and that this isn’t negatively affecting her. I call bullshit on that and on every other BS in a high-drama, high-conflict relationship with a malignant narcissist who insists they’re doing their kid a favor by raising them in a high-drama, high-conflict environment. Your wife uses up so much of your oxygen it’s a miracle that anyone under that roof can breathe.

I can see how you picture drama and conflict in our life constantly.

It’s because whenever I write about my betrayals I do bring up the old and today’s emotional landscape, and that’s in stark dissonance with each other.

It’s not something you asked about, but I will tell you why I am writing about my troubles in this way that it does look o be fair kind of psychotic (if I wasn’t the one knowing all the facets and just reading it I might as well see it differently): I never spoke about this before. I knew it, carried it and I kept it compressed inside. There was only one confrontation with her when she came back to "reconcile " with the confession. then I kept both my pain and her shame hidden from the rest of the world.

I use this space to let go of those unspoken things that sat there for 18 years and the unspoken things for the 2 years prior. It took me very long to find empathy for myself. I was convinced from what I saw around that my WS was getting all the empathy and support to quench her shame while I got none, if not the usual attitude that carries the classic 3 points message "1) she had her reasons to betray you even if it was bad. And she regretted it 2) you shouldn’t have taken her back 3) since you took her back you need to forgive her or leave." Possibly I instinctively thought that writing and sharing my own mess and confronting with what is today would get something different than the contempt you fear you get when you decide to stay with a cheater.

Which I am finally getting is not going to happen. I am simply over sharing. My skill in communicating about what I felt then and feel now is seriously lacking, I mix it up with my own processing and it just comes out confusing because I only learned to process it in the silence of loneliness. That brought me emotional peace. But I never learned to give it a voice because I feared nobody would listen, so it was never given words, and I am still not there yet.

Over sharing. I can call it a failed experience and I should probably learn to do it in paper for myself only until I can give it a coherent form, what I am doing is useless.

The free flow and too many words are an indicator that I don’t own it yet, I am trying to define it in language, and this means I am currently incapable of expressing it.

This new understanding is useful. I have something to work with.

Thank you.

With this in mind I will stop the over sharing of what is yet undefined and rethink my communication.

Now about the alleged "drama" :

My daughter had a perfectly good idea that something in her adoptive parents was off. I am conscious just how much kids are perceptive. That was impacting her negatively no matter how well the rest of our love and caring was doing her good. She learned the concept of family, she learned to smile and play and to express some emotions. My wife’s constant disregulation and drama was perceivable by her. My internal depression was also perceivable by her. It wasn’t only that of course, she had a lot of good and joy, but that tension appeared often enough that disregulated her and hindered her healing from her own abandonment trauma.

That went on until September last year. The moment things changed her nervous system relaxed too and she made incredible progress (mind is her therapist judgement because she is under her care since the day we adopted, her assessment not mine). Her panic attacks are almost entirely gone. When she still has them I can regulate her in moments, so much that she is looking for me (her mom when I am the one scolding her) as her safe space when she is distressed instead of closing herself up in a ball.

She learned to speak of her emotions with ease. She is more functional in her own life at school and in contact with other. School psychologist even told us that instead of being the disregulated child of her group as she was she became the one who is often capable of consistently regulate other children, and can far better express her distress when it happens. In short she is not The troubled child of the group.

Even her health improved, she is no longer easily catching a bug or I’ll, possibly because she is no longer in a permanent fight or fight state (and I am confident is because I am no longer in that state, she mirrors that subconsciously)

When I say my daughter is better off I say it with merit from her own therapist.

I inquired also about the hypothetical what if we were to divorce. She told it will equate to shoot her a bullet in the head. It would seriously mess her up in this stage when she is healing her trauma.

She sensed the drama of before, she relaxed now because that drama is gone.

I don’t say this to persuade you, it’s nearly impossible to change someone’s opinion once it’s set by conviction. I say it because it’s simply only reason why I state that my presence now is therapeutic for my child.

There’s the rare situation of drama and conflict between us when stuff like DDays or confrontation happens (you don’t believe it, but it’s one sided, there is no reaction from this end. Confronting? Yes. Drama? No. I don’t care for drama).

And indeed she senses it, because they do. I like that she is able to call it out instead of panicking and she is either giving space if mom is disregulated or even jokingly trying to have us "kiss and make up".

To give you a meter how drama packed this home is. It happened once in the last 6 months. And once more between September and the end of the year.

Before my recovery it was if not daily, a weekly occurrence and yes, that was exhausting.

She is not dragged in because she sees the fallout on my wife if there’s one, the tension fades after the confrontation and we never do it in front of her.

Sometimes wife tried to put drama in her presence (that was her usual pattern "before") and that stops immediately by me just calling her out. She understands that it was wrong and doesn’t want to do it anymore.

She never tries to intentionally "weaponize" the child anymore. That’s also a progress.

Mind that divorce is traumatic but survivable and sometimes beneficial for children. Traumatized children are a different story entirely. Her trauma is abandonment from biological parents.

You sure abandonment from adoptive father before she is fully healed or old enough to understand more of the reasons, is the best course of action for THIS child?

I don’t act in panic or impulsively anymore, I document my self and evaluate the consequences of important decisions.

In her case my current conclusion is that divorce will impact her negatively.

I don’t doubt I will find happier life immediately, I am perfectly confident of that.

I know the cost too, and who will pay what.

- if I stay I pay with still not having received closure

- if I go she pays with trauma

The first is still a question mark, the second is a certainty.

I am not sure this is a trade I will not regret.

About my wife using my oxygen: I am not entirely sure where you do get this impression from. In the past indeed, when I speak of my ptsd it was a daily occurrence, you would be correct.

Today my wife occupies the space she claims in my life. Daily interactions for sure. My life has its own direction. She is not on my mind the rest of the time. Imagine a family member like a sibling, that’s about her position in my world.

This is also what I mean when I say "I love her but I am not in love with her".

I know that when I love a woman she is occupying my thoughts often during the day.

She doesn’t anymore.

It doesn’t mean I hate her either, or she would take up more space.

I spend time with her when we are together because I actually do enjoy her company. You may picture a terrible person and she has been indeed terrible with me. But she is for all other means a very likable and pleasant woman to be around.

Everyone likes her, she has a good side to her.

Is just I am the only one who truly knows her dark side.

Even if I take your word that you have no hope in hell of shared custody of your child, you could still live separately.

I am foreigner here not a citizen. It’s Europe so I can stay based on that up to a period of 6 months for work and what not. I did get a green card that allow me to stay because the marriage. Also I am not employed I am an entrepreneur and it’s definitely not a favorable category when it comes to duty vs rights.

It will carry with a lot of complications, leaving the country is the most rational, practical, economically realistic option.

Isn’t impossible, if I accept to radically change my future plans, and frankly that is not on my radar. I feel I am good with sacrificing my life plans already. Not a fan of doing it again.

I know the additional costs of going through (not just divorce alimony etc) and how to mitigate them. I will have to leave the country if I want to thrive and not just survive.

And as Ink Hulk pointed out, it makes no sense that you would forfeit your legal right to money and assets when you could use those resources to support yourself, your kid, and perhaps any legal fight to remain in her life.

It doesn’t make sense doesn’t it?

I don’t expect others to understand why.

To me two things hold a very important place in my heart:

Respect and dignity

Everything that we built was build on a foundation of deception and lies. I have half of it all. I don’t want any of it.

It has value sure, so it will go to my daughter and she can have it when she turns 18. Of course her legal guardian (mom) will be administrating it until then.

I came here foregoing my previous life and career and future plans, with only my clothes and belongings.

I f I live I live with only those things that I feel they truly and legally belong only to me. My clothes, my companies, few other things.

You may feel like I am stuck in limbo, in reality I am rebuilding my life with or without her.

Considering the risks I am restructuring my companies, working to move them abroad, so I will maintain control over what is rightfully only mine no matter how it ends.

I don’t expect you to understand because I could just take a lot since I’m legally entitled to.

It has a lot of value, but nothing could buy my dignity.

And I do know I will have to fight for my daughter and sustain costs. Even if just to have basics rights covered.

You would never understand how much my sense of internal peace is worthy to me, because you can’t know what I went through to achieve it.

It was my personal hell, i only know how it was, and I am talking no souvenirs even if they are diamonds.

If we are done, then She can keep it all.

You are not going to divorce your wife; you’re just swinging the Sword of Damocles over her head because it’s the first time you’ve ever felt any power in your relationship and you know that the second you let up, she will treat you like shit. You enjoy that she off balance and the cycle of love-bombing and fighting; you finally feel like she cares.

And because I said that I will divorce her if she doesn’t come clean and she plead to give her a chance to get there before taking the step this means I am bluffing right?

I should go through immediately before I am even preparing my own exit, disregarding the consequences that I know it will have, do I get the point?

Why exactly should I rush it for? External validation? I don’t care about that.

It’s the nuclear option and is on the table. Does not mean I am itching to press the button especially since it’s not just us but my daughter who is in the explosion radius.

I also don’t get why is this any different from most issues here. I am not close to reconciliation per we, I do have clear demands. It’s that or divorce. I see effort and in the same time I still work on my exit.

I have zero attachment to outcomes here, besides my daughter best interest.

If a true R can be achieved by a wayward finally putting in the work then is perfect. Best possible scenario.

If it doesn’t or I don’t feel comfortable for whatever reason, then I will press that button.

Hopefully I will have all the fail safes in place by then to minimize the damage.

Make no mistake, there was a long period where I felt powerless, because I allowed myself to become powerless. It wasn’t always like that and it isn’t.

My wife is currently co-dependent. I don’t like it. I told her and I suggested she focus on working on it in therapy.

That’s still a wayward trait.

I want a partner, equal.

I don’t like to manipulate because I have no respect for manipulation when it is replacing honesty among peers.

Manipulation is a tool, it’s easy to use and if you intentionally abuse it or rely on it that’s a marker of weakness.

Among adults has a different meaning than the manipulation you use with kids like "Santa will put you on the naughty list if you misbehave ".

When it trumps honesty is just cowardice and weakness.

Pretty accurate and I hope you take it these words in the spirit they are given. MAKE PEACE WITH THE REALITY.

I do, I even know they are coming from a good place, and I understand that they are loaded because I set up the emotional field to be polarizing.

Again I realize it’s my shortcoming I can’t express what I think I am communicating with the form I am using. I am trying to sew with a hammer. I just don’t use the correct tool because I didn’t master it yet.

I see why I get polar opposite reactions from what message I thought I passed through.

Believe it or not I am at peace, a peace that is hard to stir. Therapist approved not just self declared.
A good place and I would love to show the way there (but I failed in that respect) by sharing my ordeal.

What you're really expressing is that she failed the wife test. Take a major time out of this living together experiment and please stop taking advantage of the desperation she is showing.

She failed the partner test for sure. I am confident if she were ever to post here in the wayward side (I encouraged and encourage her to do it) she would get sympathy and reassurance that since the marriage and the cohabitation she has been a perfectly reformed wayward partner.

You say so because I showed you a slice of my past pain and my current acceptance of what that meant and mean.

I don’t think I am taking advantage of a person because I confronted and told her: this is what I want. This is what I need. What do you want?

And she answered she want me back emotionally, physically, as husband and wife.

I told mynconditions.

She doesn’t meet her right now.

She promised she will put the work to fulfill them, asking to give her time to.

Where do I take advantage of her exactly?

I am not confrontational, I am genuinely curious if I am missing an angle.

Thanks for the input to everyone up to now.
I am not salty or disregarding it even when was a bit inflammatory.
I hope you can see it.

I am trying to break it down and break down my own communication.
I see my shortcomings and I will rethink it.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 9:53 AM, Saturday, June 20th]

Forgive me for assuming something here, BackfromtheStorm, but from everything you have described, I formed the impression that your current living situation includes marital intimacy with your "roommate." If that isn't the case, then I wouldn't say you were taking advantage of the situation. It's just that sharing sex is a powerful bond between people, so if your trust and deep commitment cannot be there, it seems a bit callous to allow her physical intimacy with you. Coming from my position as a BW and possibly having misunderstood what I read here.

You assumed correct Superesse.

We do have sexual intimacy, that never stopped.

The only difference is after her betrayal I wanted to vomit every single time. I had physical disgust, repulsion and just wanted to get over it asap.

I hated myself for it and tortured myself wondering what’s wrong with me.

That’s gone now, I can enjoy it as she enjoys it.

I understand that it might be different to you, but I don’t need emotional connection or love to be intimate with a woman.
There can be passion, intensity free of such gravity. And yes I had shared such intimacy with roommates or friends or just random girls that were never my girlfriends in the past, nor I wanted anything more than what we had.

Different from just physical intimacy is when there is a bond.
That changes everything for me as well.

In that case physical intimacy does reinforces the bond and deepen the connection, I do draw the line between the previous and this one. This one I call making love.

And this one is the kind of intimacy you want in a fulfilling marriage.

I am not taking advantage of a situation here. She desires it I am open to it, this time without repulsion towards her.

If the argument is I should deny it to her because she is not meeting my needs yet, therefore I should either deny myself physical intimacy or share it with another girl, then no. I am not going to indulge in other women right now, nor I am precluding myself a healthy sexual life when it’s consensual.

nor I am precluding myself a healthy sexual life

It’s interesting to me, in a sad way, that you felt the need to vomit every time you had sex with your wife. I’m not going to call it making love because it sounds like there was very little love involved. A conundrum is which came first, genetics or culture. It’s my understanding, and I’m speaking in generalizations, that men get most offended by the actual sex act because their wives are their possessions and it has, in essence, been as if their castles were invaded. I think with most women, like me, the sex act, although very personal, still has very little emotion to it in most of these exchanges. My husband only cheated out of town, and I think it was a situation, or situations, where alcohol and coworkers met. That’s the beginning and ending of what I know because I’ve never asked more than that. If that had been an actual affair, I would’ve fallen apart, and probably our marriage would have as well. I’m so sorry, so very sorry, that your pain is still so evident in your writing.

I can tell you how it was for me Cooley, won’t speak for all men because it’s generalizing.

Sexual intimacy can be either completely separate from emotional involvement or can be a result of emotional attachment.

I can say that in the second case it’s necessary to develop a deeper bond, if physical intimacy is missing then the emotional connection will quickly dissipate in time and will not survive.

This kind of connection means: I choose you as my partner. There is not and there will be no one else. It’s more intense and more like "giving"

That’s what I call "making love".

The other kind is easy going , doesn’t mean exclusivity, doesn’t need emotional engagement. It’s not necessarily selfish or transactional, it can be passionate and caring, but it’s devoid of the deeper meaning of love.

Of course consider it a spectrum, it could be transactional, completely selfish, performative and likely many other variations of the spectrum. Even exploitative, just ask some AP if you know any.

The only ingredient missing is love and commitment. Is only one but it makes all the difference in the world.

I made love to only 4 girls in my life. It overshadows every other partner or encounter. Connection between you and a woman is not be a requirement. But when you have a connection with Your woman is a different story.

It’s my understanding, and I’m speaking in generalizations, that men get most offended by the actual sex act because their wives are their possessions and it has, in essence, been as if their castles were invaded

Yes this is a very popular stereotype painting a very belittling picture of half of the humanity.

Basically it says "men are all abusers". Goes right in hand with every other eugenics, supremacist or collectivist ideology.

It’s not unlike any cult blind belief. You accept a dogma dehumanizing a group without question.

Like any such belief there is a pinch of truth with a ton of loaded exaggeration.

What the stereotype assumes is "I see my partner as a possession thus dehumanize her. An object not a person "

Sounds good enough hence it must be truth. Why bother thinking think might be a bit more complex? If is not me a black/white stereotype just cuts it.

I don’t like stereotypes outside jokes, so let me provoke you with this:

I have a primal biological program, the only thing that guarantees my genetic survival is a loyal partner if I am loyal myself. That’s subconsciously active in me. And until here we fit well in the stereotype.

However my loyalty is not freely given to anyone. I can have dozens or hundred if partners if I want, with zero emotional investment. That’s another biological survival strategy.

If I invest in One partner I am giving her something extremely rare, exclusive and absolute commitment. In other words I believe in this woman so much, so unconditionally that I am willing to bet the entire future of my blood line and I will dedicate my life to her wellbeing and survival and the survival of our offspring.

It’s an all in, if we move from the primitive men language we can call this love.

Doesn’t it sound more like faith, trust and dedication now, rather than the objectification and dehumanization the stereotype claims?

This is not transactional and selfish. This is sacred. I commit my life and existence and heritage to someone else.

I choose to. I invest all I have and pledge my life. To one single woman.

I don’t have to, I could easily go for quantity and invest next to nothing besides few calories for intercourse.

Do these kind of uninvested / selfish guys exist? Yes. Some for a time until they mature, some choose this as A lifestyle.

That’s what your average cheater or affair partner does by the way. Selfishness and objectification does exist. Does not mean that is the rule.

So if I commit to my woman and give her what’s likely the biggest gift I can give to a partner, and then I found out that she betrayed all of this to be used by a random affair partner as a dump. Then I want to vomit.

It truly gets under your skin.

It’s called "the ick" and it happens to many betrayed partners. Men and women alike.

It’s nothing to do with possessiveness or objectification or dehumanization. Your partner get everything you can offer. Your partner chooses to throw it away to be objectified.

Her choice. Your disgust.

Is the betrayal that makes you nauseous. If I have a different arrangement with a woman with no exclusivity, I don’t actually care how many partners she has beyond me. We both respect our arrangement and each other within the framework. I had many friends like that. No vomit no disgust, no jealousy (you obviously take precautions to avoid sti).

So after her betrayal yes, I wanted to vomit every single time, I didn’t wanted to share intimacy, I did because I had to, because we "reconciled " instead of bringing we closer like before, it devoured me inside and humiliated me in the very core of my being.

And in the pain I could only feel shame, not understand why I felt that way.

I am relieved that is gone.

nor I am precluding myself a healthy sexual life

Superesse,

I am not Mother Nature, it’s not my design.

For an adult male it is one of the most important factor for mental and physical health, cancer protection and life expectancy.

When I was in a relationship and I couldn’t be with my girlfriend I did followed total abstinence.

Whenever I was single I did what is natural.

There’s nothing malicious in this.

PA:
I think I missed an important caveat. Iirc about the research, while sexual activity does benefit health and life expectancy, I think I read data showing that committed long term relationships have all those benefits an order of magnitude greater.

So again, definitely love is factually "better" than shallow promiscuity.

I am not advocating for the second if you understand where I come from.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 11:17 PM, Saturday, June 20th]

There is the conundrum. I know women, including me, who feel an actual affair, where love words are used, where long range plans discussed, where money is spent, travel is done, is so painful it alters you. I have seen where men have written that they could handle everything but the sex act. I am no expert. The comment about being nauseated was what made me comment because that was not anything I felt. I never thought then, and not now, did my h have anything but transitory feelings, probably as long as the alcohol was in his body. So I did not have to agonize on any of the behaviors here.