SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I demanded a post nup to even consider reconciling with my H. He willingly signed it b/c he felt if we R then there was no need for it.

It was one of the moves that restored my power in the relationship. My first move at dday2 was to cut off all his power over me & kids. And it was a smart move b/c it restored my self esteem AND put me in complete control over my future.

I also told him I was D him and me & kids were staying in the house and we were not moving out - he was.

You are in a good path it seems. Just remember you make whatever decisions you must — to protect yourself.

Don't be in a hurry to divorce. Things may change for you in time. If you're cordial and concerned you may be able to just " keep on keepin' on." I am concerned about your kids. Not sure how old but kids thrive when in a environment mom and dad love each other. I recall the old saying,"the finest thing a man can do for his children is to love their mother." Sometimes a tall order but your kids are worth trying. By the same token, if it's positively over don't stay for the kids.

The post nup is an excellent course of action, allowing you to retake control and rebuild any self esteem you may have lost, although that doesn’t appear to be the case with you.

For four years you allowed your WW to dictate the terms of your relationship, which allowed her to carry on her affair. You’ve put a screeching halt to this. You’re doing a terrific job!

When the betrayed starts making certain demands or boundaries the balance of power can shift.

You, as the betrayed, hang tough and set the expectations of how things need to change.

You got this!

guvensiz - I agree there is a strong possibility I was being fooled when we were messaging the AP. Although, there were a number of indicators suggesting I was not. I also agree there is a chance the OBS is in the dark still. Not much I can do about that. The OBS does have a history of hiding her head in the sand. I saw evidence of this in communications between my wife and her early on in the story. Remember, the OBS was convinced early on by my wife and the AP that I was just crazy and controlling. She had to hear it from my wife and the voicemail she left for the OBS is the best we will get.

What you said about my wife’s personality has been an ongoing concern for me. As part of her recent disclosures she reported the connection between her and the AP during the last year going stale. Basically she would continue to contact him hoping for the feeling she got before, but never getting it. She said he seemed to have lost interest.

So, her affair blew up and apparently
petered out, now she’s back to plan B (me). I get that, and my biggest concern, and what I feel like is a very real possibility is her replacing him with someone or something else in the future. I don’t want to be a default fallback position.

I’ve never cheated. I’ve been unhappy in my marriage at times before this. I saw opportunities where I knew I probably could have an affair. I just don’t think I ever could have done it. My wife clearly can. I wonder if I’m more likely to cheat on her now since she’s cheated on me.

My attorney is sending me the first draft proposal for the post nup next week. I want to get that in place quickly. My wife keeps thinking things are getting better and I have to keep reminding her I don’t feel any better. Our wedding anniversary is coming up in a few weeks. I told her I didn’t want to acknowledge it this year. She acted really hurt and surprised which kind of pissed me off. We normally at least do an expensive dinner date night. I don’t feel like pretending we have anything to celebrate.

I asked her to stop wearing the wedding band and she did. I know it’s strange, but looking at it was triggering, my mind would jump straight to the images of them having sex.

Basically she would continue to contact him hoping for the feeling she got before, but never getting it. She said he seemed to have lost interest.

So, her affair blew up and apparently
petered out, now she’s back to plan B (me). I get that, and my biggest concern, and what I feel like is a very real possibility is her replacing him with someone or something else in the future. I don’t want to be a default fallback position.

Well her boyfriend "seemed to have lost interest" in your WW and now as you mentioned, she's back to "plan B" (you), this essentially makes you her "default fallback position" and you were just that during her A. If I was in your shoes, after such a huge betrayal and essentially knowing she's now executing her "plan B", I couldn't settle for that, I would file for D and end the M, no need for postnup or anniversary celebrations anymore, and maybe, just maybe leaving open the possibility to date her in the future, that would give her the chance to make you plan A again, but of course it's your life and your decision.

Legatus. You said she is now working hard at rebuilding and fixing herself. Can I ask what she is doing?

Her reaction to the anniversary celebration seems to indicate she is not working hard enough especially at understanding and helping with the pain she’s inflicted on you.

Legatus - did your WW explain to you what her end game was with her A? It doesn’t sound like your typical exit A.

Was this simply a cake eating A? Or, was her goal/dream that both she and the POS divorce their spouses and then get together?

Did you discuss a scenario as in: what if the POS didn’t grow tired of her? In this scenario would she have expected and desired the A to continue as it had for the prior four years?

Brother, there has been years of mistrust, years of disrespect, years of him over you and your family circle.

Do what feels right, get the postnuptial in place that is legally binding, but don’t trust, get a approved separation agreement in place in case the Shit show is too much shit to go through, but don’t trust.
I am not saying rub her nose in her PA every chance you get. You can forgive but fuck never forget.
Can you R without forgetting yes you can. Can you R without forgiving, no as the elephant in the relationship will forever get in the road.
Most of all Do what feels right for you! After four years I don’t understand why she still wants to remain? Financial? Status? Convience? I don’t know. I may have missed her reasoning for staying.
One day at a time and get OBS to understand the truth.
Buffer

Keep standing up for yourself.

She acted really hurt and surprised

Your reaction and statement was honest. You did nothing wrong. If she was hurt, SHE hurt herself. She chose to cheat, and there are consequences. This is one of them. You have been suffering the consequences of her A for quite some time.

I always find that kind of reaction surprising. It shouldn't surprise me, but I know I can't think the way a WS does. She basically showed you how little she cared about your M, now when you tell her that you don't want to celebrate the M she threw away, she doesn't understand why.

Stay strong. Keep fighting for what YOU need.

It's occurred to me that I haven't written a lot about what she is saying these days. Yes, I still get some cards, but they are few and far between and the content has changed. Her basic story is he started out as a friend and co-worker. Nothing inappropriate happened until the months leading up to her trip to go run the race with him. That's when she started hiding and deleting communication. She maintains she did not go that weekend intending to have sex, but concedes looking back it was something she should have realized might happen. I really do think she considered him close friend in her mind leading up to that weekend. I think she fooled herself a bit into ignoring all the signs that it had become something more. She says the morning after the dead they talked about it. He was pushing for an ongoing PA, but she states that she regretted it and told him it can never happen again. She says in her mind if they never did it again they could pretend that it never happened and resume their status as just friends. She now admits and understands how ridiculous that was. There are so many details I'm leaving out. You all know how many moving pieces these things have. That's it in a nut shell. She said her plan was to never leave me. She thought that if he was categorized as a friend she could have me and him. She now talks openly about how ridiculous that sounds. Obviously I have doubts about her story. Was there a plan to continue the PA? Was it really the first and only time they had sex? Was the sex premeditated in a sense where they verbalized having sex when before she came? Did she really say it could never happen again? I know she was pretty drunk when it happened based on how much she reported she drank, and she is a light weight. Alcohol does tear down boundaries. Maybe she drank so much knowing that was the only way she could move forward with sex which she clearly wanted.

I really pushed for a lot of information regarding her thought that if they just did it once and never did it again she could consider the relationship a friendship after they did the dead. It made and makes no logical sense. I do believe that she fooled herself into believing it would resume as a friendship. She claims that she looked at my distress after the trip as me being controlling and she rebelled against that. If she considered the relationship a friendship and discounted my feeling as controlling she could avoid facing her shame. She is still working with her CI. She reported her CI saying that the roles between us have been reversed. Her being the pursuer and me being the withdrawer. When I do ask her questions she responds with complete answers. When I am upset about it she approaches me with compassion and admissions of her blame for causing the pain. I used to receive anger and dismissiveness.

I took her to one of my IC sessions. The only time I had taken her before was in the year after the sex weekend. I have a really good IC who is close to retirement and id pretty intuitive. I like that she smells out my bullshit and calls me out on it. Anyways, my counselor said that she noticed a 180 in my wife's behavior and attitude during the session. My counselor also said to make sure to follow through with the post nup just incase we are both being fooled.

Here's a portion from a recent card my wife gave me. I'm including this because this has been the type of stuff she has been saying. " When you are upset and distant with me, it makes my heart hurt because I know I am the one who caused your pain. I am frustrated and upset with myself because I cannot fix it for you - fix us... This is about me making this better for you in any way I can. This is about your pain and your feelings of being betrayed. No matter how much I want it not to be true, I am the cheating spouse and always will be. But I will continue to do everything in my power to fix this and be the wife and partner you deserve. I fooled myself into thinking I wasn't wrong. I did all I could to make it go away, to make it better in my own mind. But that was selfish and shortsighted. I need to make it better with you and between us. I tried frantically to fix it, not realizing that the truth is what I needed to fix it."

Anyways, I know these words can be taken different ways. I'm still in a place where I pretty much believe nothing. The polygraph will be useful at some point to verify her "truth". Everything she says falls apart if they had sex prior to or after that weekend. Or any physical intimacy before or after that weekend. I keep waiting for the next version of the truth to be delivered. You guys were looking for more context about where she is in all of this. She talks a lot about how she can't forgive herself for putting us in place where we might not make it. She says she wants me and a marriage with me. I have given her many opportunities to exit. I've reassured her there would be financial resources for her to establish a new life without me. I've drilled down and asked her if she is wanted to move forward with me just to avoid the complications and perhaps shame of divorce. Basically her not wanting the marriage to end because of something she did, but still not wanting to be in the marriage. I've told her if she isn't really all in with the marriage moving forward she won't be happy. She talks a lot about how if we can get through this our relationship and marriage has the potential to be better and even amazing. She gets very emotional when I tell her I'm not sure we will ever heal from this. Not mad, just sad. It usually involves crying and her making statements of how it's all her fault and she will never forgive herself.

Just know that not wanting D is the default state of most WSes, remorseful or not, still cheating or faithful. Where exactly would she exit TO? OM is gone. She would have nothing and no one. Of course she wants to stay with you.

I think you're right to not believe her. There are so many things about her story that don't add up. If OM was just a friend all this time, why was she angry that he dropped her for OBS? Why did she believe OM should fight for "just a friend" and risk his marriage for her? This isn't going to start to make any sense until you have a passed polygraph confirming the truth.

I'm still in a place where I pretty much believe nothing. The polygraph will be useful at some point to verify her "truth". Everything she says falls apart if they had sex prior to or after that weekend. Or any physical intimacy before or after that weekend.

Why are you waiting to do a polygraph and get these answers. Until you do you will remain in limbo. It is her job to prove she is telling the truth, not your job to find reasons to believe her.

Legatus, I haven't commented on your story/thread in a while, so forgive me if I get some of the details incorrect. But the gist of it is this was a multi-year relationship she had with this man, under your nose, where she ignored, derided, denied, lied about your concerns and protests about her relationship with this man, correct?

with that in mind, you should take the approach that anything she tells you is lying/minimizing/sugar-coating. If you have this mindset, you will be correct or closer to the truth than if you try to figure out how to accept her explanations and fit them into some puzzle that looks like something anyone would really do in any kind of reasonable real-life scenario.

For example:

I really do think she considered him close friend in her mind leading up to that weekend.

A close friend who she was having a totally boundary-crossing, probably physical, and honestly, probably sexual/sexualized relationship already.

I wouldn't focus on that weekend as "the event", just a highlight really. This thing went on for years.

I think she fooled herself a bit into ignoring all the signs that it had become something more.

I'd be very surprised if she put much thought into it. She didn't care. She was into him. She didn't care about you.

She says the morning after the dead they talked about it. He was pushing for an ongoing PA, but she states that she regretted it and told him it can never happen again.

She may have said it, but it is most likely bullshit. The relationship carried on, did it not? And the denials and gaslighting?

Also, ditch the passive language: "It happened". No, she did it with him. She created the conditions, went to go see him, made sure you weren't there. No it did not "just happen".

She says in her mind if they never did it again they could pretend that it never happened and resume their status as just friends. She now admits and understands how ridiculous that was.

Okay. They did it again. And again. The only reason she is admitting anything is because you are no longer accepting her utter bullshit (Though still accepting some bullshit).

She said her plan was to never leave me. She thought that if he was categorized as a friend she could have me and him. She now talks openly about how ridiculous that sounds. Obviously I have doubts about her story.

Of course she didn't plan to leave you! Her plan was fuck-buddy him, safe provider you, and you just deal with it.

It's ridiculous if you allow it.

Was there a plan to continue the PA?

Not a plan per se. They didn't draw up documents or anything. They just had an years-long ongoing sexual affair.

Was it really the first and only time they had sex?

No.

Was the sex premeditated in a sense where they verbalized having sex when before she came?

Does it matter?

Even if they didn't verbalize it, what else do you need besides they did everything to create the conditions for sex?

And please remind me, wasn't there lingerie she bought that wasn't for you involved?

Did she really say it could never happen again?

Who cares? The relationship continued, and believe me, it happened again.

I know she was pretty drunk when it happened based on how much she reported she drank, and she is a light weight.

She is aware that she is a light weight, correct? The drinking was done purposefully to lower inhibitions.

Think of it like this: What if you had a secret girlfriend who you planned a romantic getaway with, then you fucked her. Then came back to your wife and said - "but I was drinking!" as if the drinking was somehow the linchpin of the activity.

No, the entire event is the problem, the drinking is just a piece of it.

Alcohol does tear down boundaries. Maybe she drank so much knowing that was the only way she could move forward with sex which she clearly wanted.

It's fun to drink and fuck.

***

If you assume less innocence, you'll be a lot closer to the truth.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 3:56 PM, Friday, October 15th]

I do not think she is telling the truth. Her stories do not make sense. She is still in saving her own ass mode and it really is insulting to you that she thinks you will buy her stories or apologies.

There is zero doubt that you were always plan b, she spent years hurting and gaslighting you, literally witnessing you hurt and continuing to do it, right up until you wouldn't put up with it (what a coincidence!) and now she is just so sorry and honest. I do not believe it at all.

Can anyone point me to any threads where a polygraph was done?

There is zero doubt that you were always plan b

To be fair, I think OP recognized (if not acknowledged) this in his post.

My $0.02 only. It seems OP is struggling with 1) if the changes he sees in his WW genuine remorse or not and 2) how to proceed with R knowing/accepting the fact that he was/is plan B. Reading between the lines, there is a desire for OP to R. I guess vets here can lay it out to OP what he can do to protect himself, what to watch out for should he decides to give R a try. I think a post-nup is in the works which is a good start.

Good luck.

Can anyone point me to any threads where a polygraph was done?

Mr Fibbles. (JFO,General threads that are very long) The parking lot confession in that case led him to divorce her. It wasn't an additional betrayal as the continuing lying that did it. You have to realize no matter how much remorse she has, she is still being untruthful. Still minimizes. Still avoiding letting you see the full truth. Waywards always do unless they have really given up the outcome. Yours hasn't. She's still fighting to save the M at all costs. Your waywards behavior reminds me a bit of Mrs Fibbles. Get the post nup in place. If you still want R afterwards, then pursue the poly. Just be aware that worse will come out because of that. More hurt will come your way. Only you can decide how much is enough.

Legates

Can anyone point me to any threads where a polygraph was done?

Go to my profile. It’s all there . Thumus also but with totally different results

Have you asked where her actively discrediting you falls into her story? Why she preemptively told people you were not to be trusted and what she was defending herself against.

Her claim is her relationship with her boyfriend was purely friendship up to the night of the trip where it briefly turned sexually and she immediately regretted it. Ended it and claimed she would (and did) actively return to just friendship. Her claim is she was just his friend before and after.

Ok… why setup such elaborate circumstances that create doubt about your word? Why seed doubt in people about the veracity of what you say? What was she preemptively defending her and her boyfriend against?

Remember she claims in her mind they were just friends before and after. She claims to believe everything was kosher other than the one night. She claims there’s nothing untoward to find outside that night and given you were not there that night what is she discrediting you for? Her presence in his home that night was common knowledge. Discrediting you does precisely nothing to hide what she claims was the extent of the affair.

Discrediting you only makes sense if there’s more to this story. Too much effort has gone into obfuscating to the world what she claims was, in her mind, 99% of the time an honest friendship.