SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Bor9455
Thank you for sharing your story. It sounds like you and your wife worked as a united front. This is a silly and stupid question but How did you get to that point? Did you have an aha moment via counseling? Reading? Common sense?

Not to sound flippant, but really all of the above.

In late 2017, I was convinced that my wife was having at least an EA and I confronted her…I want to say that was October. In late December 2017, I came home from work and she wanted to talk, she had discovered my EA….yeah…I was the guy who called her out on her EA while still maintaining mine. Anywho, from that point in time on, we did everything that SI teaches us not to do.

Neither of us demanded NC, but rather that we pulled back the nature of our relationships with these APs, basically back to being "just friends" with no NC messages, no hard consequences, just mostly rugsweeping all of it, etc.

Fast forward to Sep 2019, I come home from a weekend in which I got blackout drunk and broke my NC with my EA AP, she claims we are done and headed for divorce, even though at this point I’d been NC since April 2019 and while being drunk is no excuse, I didn’t even recall doing it so it was that moment for me that I realized this woman who lived in another country, that I had never met, had this grip over me that I hadn’t considered. I began therapy that fall and started working on my issues, would find SI and I took some 2x4s to the head in the Wayward forum. I’ve read books, I’ve done therapy sessions, I’ve watched videos, I’ve hung around here for nearly 5 years to help both WS and BS, because I’ve walked their paths. I recognize how deeply painful breaking of NC is and how devastating it can be on a BS.

My wife did all that in Sep 2019, knowing full well that in 2018, she took her EA to the PA world and for the better part of a year, has been having an EA and PA all the while she was confronting me about how my EA started up again. It was about the time that I was beginning to accept that I had lost my marriage and there was nothing I could change or do as a person that would convince her to reconsider divorce (although she hadn’t taken a single action towards filing for divorce, so it seems now like it was a tactic)…well it was about that time that she came to her senses and confessed the PA with the EA AP that I had no clue about.

It took her a few weeks, but she eventually listened to a couple of the key books we talk about here on audible. When she listened to Not Just Friends, she finished it and I came home from work that day and she was ready to send off a NC message and she has also packaged up all the love trinkets he got for her, a water bottle, a bracelet, a stuffed animal, a fucking commitment ring (🤢🤮) and all of it went back to his only known mailing address.

I think it as how other posters have said, you truly have to be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it. For you, if you can confirm that your WH is breaking NC over and over, you can tell him that you are divorcing him and mean it. I mean, you really have few options left, you don’t want to spend the rest of your life as marriage police over his day to day interactions. You also cannot force him to see that his continued contact with his AP is like a dagger through your heart ❤️ each time he does it. You can force him to legally no longer be your husband and cohabiting together through a divorce. Let him be free to go be with her if she is so got damn interesting that he has to stay in touch with her so bad. He is telling you through his actions how he really feels, and continued contact with the AP sends a clear message that your needs as a BS are less important to him than whatever ego kibbles he gets from another woman still chasing him. I understand that you may prefer reconciliation with your WH, but you can only control yourself and your actions, you may be best served by implementing the 180 and possibly a separation to help you to detach from this toxic relationship.

My best friend of 35 years dropped me when I decided to reconcile. My other close friends keep distance.

Hi Cedarwood,
I had to read a couple of times this sentence of yours because I cannot believe who you are surrounded by? You have a husband who is not limpid and now your friends are abandoning you because you do not appreciate their advice and have made a different decision? It is YOUR LIFE and as much as they have taken time to give you advice, they are no better than your husband for betraying your friendship.

How can a person only remain "friend" only if ideas are the same? No wonder people learn to lie if they get abandoned for thinking differently... a friend respects other ideas and supports a friend, even if they would have made different decisions.

My sister and my brother did not agree that I wanted to reconcile, they said my husband only deserved to be dumped, but were supportive of my decisions because all they wanted was my happiness even if based on what they would have never chosen (so they say, I thought a betrayal would have been for me immediately the end of my relationship, I thought that until I really found myself there...)

Honestly if this pain is showing you who your real friends are, you are earning more than losing.

I am really sorry your "friends" are adding more pain to your already difficult time. I hope you will find here people who support you for YOUR decisions that you only can make. A warm hug to you.

I have decided either he takes the poly, or provides me with the phone records (which also includes texts), or comes clean (and maybe we can find a way to work through this relapse)

If he refuses, then as many of you said, i don’t have anything to work with.

I must walk away.

I am really sorry if there is no other way for you to reconcile. Unfortunately it tales one person to break a relationship but it always takes two to fix it!

Maybe IT COULD BE useful to say to your WH that everybody stays in a relationship to feel a sense of security and it is clear you REALLY NEED (not wish or desire, but NEED) to see he is willing to DO ALL IT TAKES PROTECT your relationship and to NOT INFLICT PAIN ON YOU. At the moment you feel you are not in a safe relationship and you don't see how you can reconcile with someone who is CHOOSING TO HURT YOU. Love is not just a feeling but a series of CHOICES to make the other partner feel secure, respected and loved.

[This message edited by Fantastic at 7:46 PM, Monday, April 1st]

Cedarwoods

It might be too much TV or something, but we tend to have this tendency to have to prove everything… As if we were trying to convince a jury or a judge. All we need is to convince ourselves. That’s it.
It’s like if you don’t like the looks of a food-van and think they might be breaking a dozen or more health-codes you don’t feel a need to order a greasyburger and risk getting food-poisoning simply to prove your hunch. You simply avoid it. If the owner really wanted your business, it would be on him to convince you that there are neither cockroaches nor rats sharing your food.

You can use a comparable stance on your husband:
"I know you and OW are still in contact. That tells me you place THAT relationship higher than our marriage. The logical deduction therefore is that I start looking at options other than us remaining husband and wife. No rush – this takes time and there is a process that should ensure it’s fair to both of us.
IF you want this marriage it’s your most pressing role right now to convince me I’m wrong OR convince me that you are not in any contact from now on. There are various ways you can do that – hand me your phone/computer NOW, give me access to your phone-logs or even take a poly. You can also add confirmation to what I already know by refusing to convince me."

That’s it. Not your role to prove he is in contact, but his role to convince you he isn’t.

Cedarwood, this taking your power back you are proposing is very liberating. You will see yourself in a new light and enjoy it 😊

Thank you all for your support and words of kindness.

I don’t want to go into much detail but here’s the update.
The AP reached out to WH to profess her love and regret over ending the affair. She said breaking up with him is the biggest regret of her life, which is completely shocking given how she poorly treated him during the affair.
WH told her he had reconciled with me. She cried then said she was glad for him and that she would not bother him again.
I verified the text and phone exchange against the phone carrier log and it checks out. The last exchange was 6 months ago.
As for the content of their convo, i will never know.
And could they be communicating via other means? Possibly. I can’t know that.
Am I angry that he re-engaged with her and lied? Hell yeah. He could have ignored her email (sent from a new address) but instead he unblocked her from his phone so they could talk. WTF.
His "excuse" "reasons" were that he didn’t get to say what he needed to say when she dumped in via text. He asked to speak to resolve some issues and she basically told him to F$^# off. So he wanted a chance to say his peace. And he did. And he said the convo was yet another confirmation in his mind that he’s in the right place (with me) because he had absolutely no interest in getting back with her even when she was promising to have changed and will treat him well, etc. etc. and he didn’t care if she was telling the truth or if she was lonely and calling all of her ex’s. It didn’t matter to him.

I am livid. I feel like I’ve been knocked down again. What little trust he earned in the last 18 months of R is all gone.
I feel like we are starting from point zero.
I had noticed many positive changes in WH during R that I cannot believe he would lie again like this.But would I have lied too if I were in his shoes? Maybe?
Things have been going well in R that this "relapse" has me so confused that I can’t tell which way is up or down.

For the last 6 months,he has been lying to you. Things haven't been going well. He's just been manipulating you into thinking they were.

If he had been doing the actual work to become a safe partner, he never would have responded. He never would have unblocked her. He never would have responded at all, because saying his peace to her wouldn't have mattered at all. And he would have told you immediately when she attempted contact.

That he felt the need to tell her how he felt about her, and the affair,and speak about his side of things says she still holds space in his head, if not his heart.

Having this conversation with her was more important than protecting your heart.

I suggest you pull back from R. Do a hard 180, and detach. I'd also schedule a polygraph. I'd want to know if he's telling the truth about what he said to her. Because it's a little suspicious that he told her how happy he was with you. Almost as if he's telling you what he thinks you want to hear..and what he is hoping will cause him the least amount of trouble.

[This message edited by HellFire at 3:25 PM, Thursday, April 4th]

I am glad that you followed your gut and now have the truth. I am deeply sorry that the truth is what it is.

His "excuse" "reasons" were that he didn’t get to say what he needed to say when she dumped in via text. He asked to speak to resolve some issues and she basically told him to F$^# off. So he wanted a chance to say his peace. And he did.

I find this gut wrenching. Because to me, that means a part of him has still been emotionally engaged with the affair. She hurt him and he wanted acknowledgement of that. So this whole time he has been holding on to feelings and some kind of need of her, even if it was just "closure."

So he has not been all in with you. He couldn't have been if he was still pining for his moment with the AP. It tells me that his emotional attachment to her was strong and remained in your marriage. Then he went and left the door open for more contact with AP by not blocking her on email. He remains attached to her.

It also tells me that in his personal journey he has not taken full accountability. He had the affair. He put himself in that shitshow of a "relationship" and he destroyed his wife and marriage. But he needed her to hear about his pain. As if he was the victim here. His wounds are self inflicted. The only person he should be asking any questions of is himself.

He doesn't value you in the way he should. You can't do much about that. What you can do is start to value yourself. I think you need to find your anger.

Why don't you try listing all of the reasons you deserved this. Detail out all the ways in which his lying, deceiving and manipulating you are because of how horrible you are. List all of your crimes against him that required his total devastation of you, your marriage and your future. I mean really match up your crimes versus total devastation. "I get annoyed with him when he leaves his socks on the floor" is a good reason for "He teamed up with a third party to intimately betray me." Or, "I cried a lot after finding out about his affair" is a great reason for "He needed the enemy to soothe his bruised ego."

I'm being sarcastic of course but the point is, you need to literally see all the ways he has hurt you and realize how cruel it was.

Find your anger. It will come, in part, from remembering your worth. Only then can you be truly appalled at how he has treated you.

And who knows the effect on him. He apparently likes ballsy mean women.

Hi Cedarwoods,

I can understand your dilemma here, because perhaps what he is saying is true, and he was afraid to tell you. I’m not saying that he should’ve held that from you, but I’m saying that he may be telling the truth and that he wants to be with you and not her.

I can also understand why you would be angry for keeping this contact from you and perhaps you should share that with him. You could tell him that you’re unsure if he is being truthful and that he can prove himself by taking a lie detector test to make you feel more secure with him.

If you still love him and want to remain with him you might want to give him this chance. It’s in your hands.

Oh cedarwoods, I'm so so sorry. I've been thinking about you.

Can I ask, do you have all of the messages leading up to their discussion over the phone? Or have they been deleted?

One thing I don't understand, is that from reading your posts, a huge part of your hurt was related to the fact that she dumped him and you've been wondering whether you're Plan B. He must know thats how you have felt. So I'm confused as to why he wouldn't have come to you with this information, and let you know this is now HIS opportunity to tell her to do one, that he loves you only, and to back the hell away. It could have been the best gift to you 😔

I'm quite simply gutted for you x

Whiskeyblues
Texts were deleted and i cannot see the contents of the text. The only thing i have access to are dates of texts and call.
But i do believe that AP must have reached out to see if he would be willing to get back together. In WH’s mind, i was never plan B so he didn’t feel the need to prove that to me. If that makes any sense.
I go back and forth with the bad and the not so bad. I am trying to see if there is any hope in continuing R. Is this something we can recover from? Is this something I SHOULD not recover from? I am very torn. I thought we were making good progress.

Hi Cedarwoods,

Just want to echo what others have said really, really sorry you are hear but in relation to your last point....only you really have that answer and only you can decide if this is too much to handle. Whatever you decide to do moving forward has to be your decision and one you can look back in the future and think "yeah that was the right decision for me". Strangers arent able to answer that for you I'm afraid.

I agree with WBs above....why didnt he see this as a chance to bond with you, have you be the one to send the message if one was needed at all. The number was blocked and it could've just stayed tht way.

My Bs and I havent blocked any of her stuff in the event she does try and reach out but that's only because my BS can then have her say (if she wants) which is only fair....but even if my AP does reach out I would be running to my BS to tell her straight away it just isnt worth risking it all!!!

Hi Cedarwoods,

There is no should or should not in this case. You should not feel the pressure to take any decisions right now with a traumatic mind. You should however, take care of yourself. Take a step back and focus on your healing.

Your WH needs to put in the work at this point. Convince you that he is worth your time and emotions. Also that he realizes what he did and why he did it.

Meanwhile, you should wait and watch.

Take care.

I am so sorry you're here. I can't imagine feeling safe at all after he's chosen to re-engage with AP and lie/hide things again. Something that I remember telling myself when I was in the midst of limbo with my former WS was that if she lied AT ALL, and I mean AT ALLLLLL, then that was only showing me she hadn't changed a bit - she was capable of everything she had already done and shown me before. I would re-ask questions, I would run my "tests" by cross checking her memory and seeing if she was still lying. Pointless honestly, because in the grand scheme of things we deserve better...if they really want to change then we would see it rather than having to play detective and "mommy" to their bullshit. If they were really doing the work, it would be apparent. Anyway, for whatever reason I needed to have the slap in the face repeatedly in my "tests" of her honesty to really see it for what it was...

I would remind myself, "maise...you already knew this about her...why are you hurting yourself more in this false hope that she's changed? She is still a liar, she's always shown you that." Eventually I got it and was able to stop placing myself in that space. I accepted her for exactly who she is.

You truly deserve better. You don't deserve the lies, the secrecy, the manipulation, any of it. I'm so sorry he's re-injured you.

I don’t defend the behavior, it was wayward to communicate with her and to hide it.

I will say this. It doesn’t mean that he did it because he still has feelings about her. I could see myself having done something very similar a year out. Though I do believe I wouldn’t have hid it. I was pretty clear if he caught me in one lie we were going to divorce. At that time I would have told just out of pure fear he would find out. (Not the best reason)

Let me explain. I don’t feel now I would respond. However, I would still be rattled, and I have zero good feelings about the ap. This was a major life event, so even now it would have some impact on my emotions. But back then the scenario popped into my head from time to time what I would do if he broke NC. I have a fairly good idea I would have responded in much the same way your husband reports.

Like your husband, the ap dumped me. I never saw my husband as plan b either. But at a year out I think had he reached out I would have said the same thing. "I am reconciled and it is over. I regret everything and wish I never became involved with you"

My reasoning would have still been wayward thinking, and maybe hard for some to understand. But in having an affair I lost a lot of my feelings of power. It wouldn’t have been about missing him, or even about closure. More a feeling of personal victory that he no longer had power over me. Maybe a morbid curiosity of seeing him through a new lens so that I could see just how delusional I was.

I no longer feel this way. I don’t worry after all this time the ap will turn up anymore. But if he did he would get zero response. He never held my power, I was always the owner even while I politely kept sitting it in everyone else’s lap. But at a year out, with the downfall of my whole life in shambles, I rather think it would have been a relief in some ways to be able to just close it out, myself, because I wanted to. It would have just made it feel definitive that just because he dumped me didn’t mean that I wanted him back.

It would have been wayward thinking. So I am not holding it up as a specimen of good behavior. I am only just saying it doesn’t mean that he was carrying feelings.

I would be most mad about the lying. Another secret he shared with her and not you. The contact must have been the way he said if you can’t find any evidence otherwise. Personally, if you were to poly him and get that you have everything, then I wouldn’t assume this was about carrying a torch. It wasn’t the right move, he tried to restore his pride at your expense and then busted what little hard earned trust he had going.

If he was really still carrying a torch, he would have continued to be in contact with her all this time. It doesn’t sound like to me at this point that’s what has happened. It sounds more like he took the opportunity to close a door he should have long ago. But he took it at clearly the wrong time and not for the right reasons. And then hid it.

Is there an obs? Did you report it to him?

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:50 PM, Thursday, April 4th]

The AP reached out to WH to profess her love and regret over ending the affair. She said breaking up with him is the biggest regret of her life, which is completely shocking given how she poorly treated him during the affair.

Maybe it's completely shocking,because that is not what was said.

WH told her he had reconciled with me. She cried then said she was glad for him and that she would not bother him again.

This sounds like a good story to tell your bs, when you've been caught talking to the ow.

If he was really still carrying a torch, he would have continued to be in contact with her all this time.

Not necessarily. She broke it off with him,not the other way around. She contacted him. And he responded. I carried a torch for a few years, for my first love. But I didn't try to contact him,at all. And when he made contact,I jumped at it.

What you do know..he is a liar. He didn't tell you about the contact. You had to find it yourself. There is no reason to believe that call went as he said it did. None.

Can you continue trying to R? Yes. But you need to have some sort of verification that he's being honest. A polygraph is the best way to do that.

[This message edited by HellFire at 8:08 PM, Thursday, April 4th]

Thank you all for your continued support. I am so so thankful for you all.

Hikingout: hearing a former wayward’s perspective is very helpful. Some of what you said is similar to WH’s story. He said this time, he ended it with her and was glad to have had that chance. He had always said he was angry at himself for having gone back to her multiple times. There was a lot of push and pull from her and she broke up with him many times only to reach out again and get back together for another cycle of toxicity.

The only glimmer of positive light I see is the fact that there has been no contact in the last six months. And those months included xmas, new year’s and the AP’s milestone birthday.

There is no OBS. AP is divorced.

About six months after NC was established, my H came home in a panic because he had stopped to talk with the AP in the parking lot after work. He was walking to his car, she was sitting in hers (maybe waiting for him, IDK), and when he passed her, she said "Hey."

I still have record of it somewhere, but what it boils down to is that he was having a stressful day, she stopped him, and he unloaded on her about work and about all the ramifications of their A, both personal (in general terms) and professional. When she asked about us, he realized how fucked up it was that he was talking with her. He said, "I have to go" and bolted. And then he freaked out the whole way home, thinking I was going to leave him.

I'm definitely not saying that I accepted the broken NC as anything approaching acceptable, but I think I understand it. It's similar to what hikingout said about closing things out.

If my retrospectoscope is calibrated correctly, I recall that event as a turning point in recovery. I think before that, he was where he wanted to be - with me, but he still had a lot of wayward thinking, like the fights we had about him wanting to go back to a normal coworker relationship with her. He missed her. They had talked all day every day for almost a year until NC was established. Something about that parking lot event somehow sort of ended the A era and moved us firmly into the beginning of our solid R era.

I go back and forth with the bad and the not so bad. I am trying to see if there is any hope in continuing R. Is this something we can recover from? Is this something I SHOULD not recover from? I am very torn. I thought we were making good progress.

My thought is that I would tell my H that he should be far more afraid of me finding out that he's hidden something or is lying to me than he should be about telling me when he messes up. Also, NC means NC, and if there is even the slightest hint that she's trying to make contact - or if he has a desire to break NC, he needs to tell me immediately.

Above all, don't play me for a fool.

I want to be clear that I am not saying his breaking NC means he is in love with her or has deep feelings or whatever.

But he unblocked her and made that call to end an affair that had already ended. Doing so risked his marriage. So the need to have that conversation with her was THAT important to him. That's an emotional entanglement. He's given her too much headspace if 18 months out he still wanted/needed to tell her how he felt then and even now. He prioritized his feelings/needs over the marriage.

If he wanted to say "I am reconciling with my wife. Please go away," he wouldn't have had to call her or hide it. He was after something more. His own emotional closure, perhaps, but as I said before, that work is something he needs to do with himself. Opening the henhouse to the fox and lying to his wife is not how you get closure.

Cedar, I'm not writing this to take away hope or tell you to run to a divorce lawyer. Not at all actually. I'm encouraging a self described people pleaser (I should have a life time achievement award in people pleasing so no judgement) and peace maker to recognize when it's ok to be angry. To expect more from your partner. He has a lot of work to do still. Don't rationalize this away.

My practical advice at this point would be to very clear how hurt and angry you are. To accept zero rationalizations. Simply put, Mr. Cedar, you broke NC and lied to me. All the reasons in the world DO NOT MATTER in the end. What matters is: How is he going to regain your trust? How is he going to fix this mess? My questions wouldn't be "help me understand you" at this point.

He's also be out of my bed but that's just me.

TheEnd
It’s good to get input from all sides because when something like this hits, I tend to be tunnel visioned. So thank you for your honesty.
I did and still do worry about the emotional entanglement you talk about. Especially because she ended the affair. It would have been better if he dumped her because he realized XYZ about her and himself. But affair recovery is never neat and tidy, is it? It sucks all around.

Sacredsoul:
It’s so great your WH confessed to having talked to the AP and how that event moved your R in a more positive direction. Thank you for sharing your story!