SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Oh HITR, your references to the craigslist world hit me SO hard. The hosting....omg. They always happened in my house with my son in the other room. The emotionaless sex and your disgust...mirrors my feelings and thoughts. The "who the fuck are you?!"...it all hits way too close to home. My WS admits he must be bi... but I think he's saying that cuz he doesn't know why else he must've done it.

I'm so sorry to hear about your (what I can assume is a) relapse into extreme suspicions and doubt and resentment. I am ohhh so sorry and I am not kidding. I really look at your timeline as if it may be my future... and I am so sad for your pain. Considering that, it really makes me contemplate if I think going through all that you have is worth it to me.

Your FWH sounds like he handled your disbelief and disgust exceptionally well. If I were to say something like that to my WS (which I have to try sooooo hard not to every day) I know he would lose his cool.

Being able to talk about a lot with an IC is good. Maybe it's not all what you like but if its productive that's fuckin great!! And a good sign IMO. I spent half of the last IC appt talking about fucking Camry's and the weather here in Cali. Ugh talk about disappointing.

I know it's extremely cliche,... but consider light exercise to handle your irritations, anger, and everything else. I've recently started waking up an extra hour earlier and going for a walk alone. It was never an option for me before cuz he'd get all pissy when I went for walks without him and we'd have to take my son too and that would just be a big pain in the ass first thing in the morning and there's no other available time in the day...but since he's so committed, I'd say take advantage of it and TAKE some time for yourself doing something good for you. Whether it's exercise or whatever else.

Sending hugs....if that's what you need.

Your FWH sounds like he handled your disbelief and disgust exceptionally well. If I were to say something like that to my WS (which I have to try sooooo hard not to every day) I know he would lose his cool.

I've said SO MUCH WORSE to my FWH, sometimes the way I talk to him borders on verbal assault. (Think along the lines of the f word that rhymes with maggot) , and I'm SO not a bigot like that, I've never even used that word before.

He's taken it all in stride, hangs his head in shame and apologizes.

I mean sometimes I actually wonder why HE stays.

Is the pain worth it? I still don't know, I hope so. I just can't let go for some reason, there's still love for him in my heart, or maybe I'm just not strong enough to let go of our life together. 17 years of memories would be washed away.

I also think of how much it would change my life, I'm now a SAHM, he recently took on more work JUST so that I could be a SAHM because it's what I prefer. Even before that though, I've only had to work PT since my oldest was born, so I haven't worked FT in over 10 years.

He does anything he can to make things easy for me in daily life, he doesn't ask much of me, even with being a SAHM now.

And he's always been a hands on dad who helped with the kids, helped with housework, with laundry, chores, etc.

I mean, I've seen people who's non-cheating husbands don't help with any of that, they've never changed a diaper or been to a dr appointment.

So what would I be giving up in exchange for a "new model" who maybe wouldn't, OR maybe would cheat in the future? (because we all know there are no guarantees)

He's working on things for our future, working towards buying a house, etc.

He's never been this focused on bettering our life, I mean he was always a decent provider, always had good work ethic, but he always was OK with kind of floating by financially. When I was always desperate to fix our credit and buy a house years ago, he was just "eh" about it. Now he's all for it.

I just wish I could get over the grossness of it all. It all seems so dark and dirty and skeevy and disgusting, and I'm horrified that he was a part of it, especially when I think of the details, or the mind movies hit.

Then the shock, it still hits me hard some days. How is this my life? How did my happy life, happy family and happy marriage turn into THIS? How could he let this happen!?

But he's working HARD and he's putting up with everything that I throw at him due to my pain and agony.

So do I walk away from that, lose time/holidays/etc with my children, have them come from a "broken home" (which I know wouldn't be MY fault)...or do I push onward and hope I can someday overcome the pain and be left with a husband who scrubbed the shitty, disgusting, outside layer off of himself and is a polished and cleaner version of what he was?

[This message edited by HowIsThisReal at 11:35 AM, January 19th (Thursday)]

They always happened in my house with my son in the other room.

That would definitely hit me hard as well. The decisions made by waywards, while going down this dark path are sometimes so shocking.

My WS admits he must be bi... but I think he's saying that cuz he doesn't know why else he must've done it.

On d-day I asked mine, in disbelief "are you gay!?" and he said no. I said "are you bi!?" and he said "I guess I must be..."

When we had our deep, post-dday talks, he would say that even though he must be bi due to his actions, deep down, he didn't truly feel bisexual. He was confused for a little while.

Upon further introspection with & without his therapist, and after kind of defining what being bi actually means, he says he definitely isn't.

Being bi (or gay) doesn't just = fucking men, (though that's what most of society thinks).

Being bi (or gay) = being attracted, romantically, physically and emotionally to men (and women for bi). My FWH doesn't look at men on the street and think "oh he's hot/cute/attractive", he says he doesn't even really notice men, he still notices attractive women, but he will immediately turn his head & look away now.

He went with men because they were available & emotionless just like he was. 'Get off and get out'. Even the women he replied to weren't looking for 'emotional', most were also married, & looking for emotionless sex just like he was.

Basically they were all, just chasing the high of drug induced, emotionless sex.

A psychology article I read, was by a IC who often saw men similar to ours. The IC would start by asking if the man could imagine hugging, snuggling on the couch watching a movie, date nights, holding hands, creating a LTR and possibly marriage down the line, etc with a man. (that was a big nope for my FWH)

Another question was, did they notice or have crushes/sexual feelings towards boys their age or male teachers, male role models, etc when they were younger. (another big nope for my FWH, he was girl crazy as a teen)

Most said no, meaning they likely weren't bi/gay, but had deep seated issues that needed to be worked out.

There is also something called The Kinsey Test which kind of gives you an idea of whether you're mainly hetero or homosexual.

I swear on anything my FWH has "daddy issues", his dad is one of the most inappropriate, blunt & sexually offensive people I've ever met. He's offered to "take care of me sexually" if my FWH ever dies. He's talked about fucking my MIL's sister (who is lesbian) in front of me and FWH, he tells us about girls he has fucked, their boob size, how "wet" they were, etc.

FIL (<-father in law) had sex with men for $ when my FWH was younger, he also had revolving door GFs coming and going, he gave my FWH poppers and porn mags at age 13 and said sniff this while you jerk off and you'll love it!

I mean his mom isn't the shining example of healthy either, 3 marriages, all 3 were full of infidelity on both sides, none of them were healthy including the one she's in now. My FWH has had to sleep with a knife under his pillow as a teen, and was beaten up by one of his step dads, then bribed to keep quiet about it. Just so many FOO issues.

[This message edited by HowIsThisReal at 11:50 AM, January 19th (Thursday)]

Isn’t it scary how “similar” our situations are? We’re all here thinking that our Hs are these unique people but their cheating behaviors are so SIMILAR it is actually scary AF to me.

HITR, I would look into the test my H took and revealed he was supersexual (I think it on the flexuality website or something like that). That described my H to a T.

I’m trying to stay away from name calling because I have always hated it when he would call me “crazy” even before the A and I don’t want to become that person (not saying you are). And also because, quite frankly, I don’t want to be blamed for ANYTHING or any resentment in the future and distract us from what he did, which is CHEAT. You don’t want to give a cheater a diversion because he could run with it. I want him to look at me and think damn she handled it like a FUCKING CHAMP. That doesn’t mean I don’t lose my cool and don’t flip out and turn angry and swear like a sailor (as you can tell ha!).

I’m getting his timeline tonight and this will definitely be DDay4 since the main point was for him to sign a contract that says “As of this date, if anything new comes out, HurtandStuck will bounce the fuck out of this marriage”. But yeah, lots of craiglists anon hand jobs, I’m discovering he went to their cars (like WTF is wrong with you!!), there was some HJ at the gym to, and that’s where it all started. There’s apparently this whole “Secret hookup spots map” in my city for this. The extend of my “insults” is saying that yeah I’m grossed out by it, this uncontrollable heathen-like need for sex that turned into a rampage. I tell him I find it truly sick, and I’m disgusted with him and all these guys that have no concerns for the hurt they can inflict to their families. I’m thinking about all the wives that are ignorant of all of this. The behavior is absolutely SICK!

I've been married for 13 years to a great man who through our ups and downs I've loved "For better or worse". The night we purchased our vacation home for our perfect family of four I stumbled on some craigslist emails in his email account with another man. This was 4 days ago. Actually 4 years ago I found similar CL ads with women and had confronted him and it was denied and I chose to stay and believe. I had an infant and toddler. I hated him after the first time for over a year. I hated him so much I figured out how to get on CL and solicited men several different times and had encounters. I didn't feel better. The past two years we had healed and had been in a really really good place. Feeling so confident and sure of us I sat there reading that email like a lost puppy. I've told

Only my bf who is amazing and supportive. I cannot share with anyone else so looked here. He and I have had it out the past few days. He says these were just emails, that it made him fantasize when I was away. He denies being gay, says that it disgusts him, and it was more about being able to manipulate someone and email back and forth stuff. I'm so fucking confused! I'm so angry. I'm not perfect, and I have messed up too. Obviously I will get tested, actually already have it scheduled. I do not believe he is gay. It helps to know others have had this happen. I will say I love my kids and I will not turn their world upside down. He has given over every password and login. He has removed CL form all devices. He says he is 100% committed to me and our family as he does not want to lose us. He has genuinely apologized. We deeply love each other. Any thoughts?

The men on there are not there to talk dirty and exchange pics. They are looking for NSA sex...period.

I'd tell him a passed polygraph is a requirement for you to consider reconciliation.

Does he know about your cheating?

I admit,my first thought when reading your post was to wonder how many of the men you met on CL were married. I just don't understand how a BS can do that to another spouse.

My problem is that, i feel I can't give her what she wants. She says she is not bisexual and that she could never love another woman and would never want a relationship with another woman, she just says it's a sex thing. Not only does that sound incredibly shallow to me, but how am I supposed to know what she's into on any given day? Does she want me? Or a woman?

It's so confusing.

HowIsThisReal....my WH is the exact same way. The thought of cuddling,or kissing another man is repulsive to him. The only thing that interests him about another man is the penis. He said the same thing as yours...that he must be bisexual,because he cheated with a man. But, when asked about attraction,whether he notices other men,etc, he emphatically says no. And I believe him..But still...I wondered..You know?

But your post has healed me in ways I didn't even know still needed to be healed.

Thank you.

I'm curious...did you read the things your WH said to the men on CL? That's been a big stumbling block for me.

[This message edited by confused615 at 7:48 PM, January 27th (Friday)]

PS4FTW...how long have you been married? How often did you have sex? How often did she initiate? Did she seem to enjoy having sex with you?

I've read your other posts. I think she is probably not a lesbian. If she IS bisexual, then you can have a good marriage. Fidelity is a choice. And, while she may be attracted to other women, she can find fulfillment, and be happy with a man..with you.

I look at it like this...You are heterosexual. You're attracted to women. But you choose to be faithful to your wife. Do you feel you're missing out because she's not a different woman every time you have sex? I would guess that's a "no." You're choosing to give up having sex with other women. Do you feel that's a huge sacrifice? If she chooses to commit to you, a man, then there's no reason she can't be happy and satisfied with you.

Now...I will say...I see a bigger issue in your situation than whether she is bisexual or not. The OW is HIV positive. And your ww chose to.have sex with her anyway. Unless they used a dental dam, it was unprotected. And,even if they did, there's a huge risk involved. And your ww chose to not tell you, for five months, and she knowingly exposed you to a deadly std. That's so incredibly dangerous, disrespectful, and shows a complete lack of care for your well being. I don't know if you can...or should...get passed that.

I'm curious...did you read the things your WH said to the men on CL? That's been a big stumbling block for me.

I didn't read many email interactions. Only one really, it was for him getting oral and he had already been at one place and still wanted to keep the night going. He said "put on straight porn and go nice and slow with lots of tongue" or something to that effect.

I mean I also kind of read one when I found this secret email but we were at a public event with the kids and I was so in shock that when my FWH walked into the room, I closed all the apps on his phone. I wish I had told him I was looking up something, and changed his password so I'd be able to go back and look later.

But I DID see all of his ads. What he was looking for in an encounter, lines like "poppers and molly to the front of the line" or "2 bottoms looking for a top" or him describing the things he wanted to do to a woman until she begged him to fuck her, "and he would...gladly".

Ugh it's giving me anxiety just thinking of it.

Then I think WTF am I even doing? Who stays with a husband who had sex with men?

But all too often now, I can see the real him, the man I loved.

I can see how hard he's trying.

I can see that he never thought this would hurt us so much, he knew it was "taboo" but he didn't know JUST how fucking painful it would be.

I can see the father who's ashamed and terrified of breaking up his kids' family because he promised himself that he would never do that, like his parents did to him.

So then I'm like, what do I even DO? I'm constantly in conflict constantly torn. I live with pain but I see him doing the work. And then it's like, I walk away from this to what? Being a single mom of 3? No help with bedtimes, no help with dinner times, no help with daily life, being forced to go back to work FT (I'm a SAHM), dealing with custody stuff, sharing holidays, etc. It's pretty bleak in that direction. So my only hope is to try to repair he damage here.

[This message edited by HowIsThisReal at 11:32 AM, January 28th (Saturday)]

LostSK, my WS "said" it was only emails too. Then I found proof it wasn't. Then he "said" it was only the one...then I found proof it wasn't. Get my drift? It probably was not just emails and even if it was that's only because you caught it soon enough for it to not escalate. The intentions were there. He intended to cheat with the gender he was talking to. He can go ahead and say it disgusted him but that's just him not being honest with you or himself. He's flat out lying.

PS4FTW, I'm going to call you PS4 for short. Let me tell you this. I am bisexual. I have absolutely no problem dedicating my life to one man and one man only. Not having sex or intimacy with women is no different than not having it with men. Confused put it perfectly spot on.

But I do know what it is like to be in your shoes. As we all do here. It's just such a shock. This man who has always seemed almost homophobic in a way and balked at the idea of gay sex and gagged at homosexuality every twist and turn...is having sex with men? I know the shock. But really, it's not the potential bisexuality that upsets me (probably cuz I'm bi myself, but also cuz I'm extremely accepting about things like that) what bothered me were the millions of lies while he did it. How he would keep up that anti gay facade all the while seeking out men to fuck. The lies and the cheating hurt soooo much less than the discovery of his sexuality.

HITR, I read the emails. I read all the ones that were available to me to read. They're burned into my head. I can tell you firsthand that the things they posted on cl were hardly even the tip of the iceberg when it came to the nasty talk in the emails. I'm glad you don't have them to dwell on though. I'm sorry if this is getting too personal but the "two bottoms looking for a top" has me wondering, was your H a bottom? That really does not sound to me like someone who is not bi. I'm not one to judge and I don't mean to make it worse. It just has me wondering. My WS had said several times to people emailing him that there's no way he'd be open to being in bottom and he was a "top guy" which leads me to even wonder if he is bi. But that's why I ask I guess. Sorry to intrude.

I'm sorry if this is getting too personal but the "two bottoms looking for a top" has me wondering, was your H a bottom? That really does not sound to me like someone who is not bi. I'm not one to judge and I don't mean to make it worse. It just has me wondering.

It's not too personal, this is the stuff I don't tell ANYONE in real life so it's good to vent about it sometimes. So just a warning, major VENT ahead (if I come across as angry, it's because I can feel myself getting angry thinking about all this, it's not because you asked)...

He was a bottom 2 or 3 times, because he was always looking to expand his sexual experience. He said it hurt, he didn't like it, and he would stop after a few minutes, no one ever got to finish with him that way, it hurt too much.

He also was on the giving side of oral, with men sometimes too. He was high and just got caught up in whatever was going on, he never intended to ever give oral, but it all just happened, they put it in front of him and he went with it in that moment. It all was a blur of sexual deviance...no thought, no questioning, the world was gone at that time and it didn't matter what he did or didn't do, it was "anything goes", man or woman...he had no fucking boundaries or self respect while in this state of mind.

He was always looking to make the "high of sex" greater, to "broaden his horizons" and have more "sexual variety".

Apparently the more open you were to anything, the more people would reply. He said that particular ad never got answered anyway...as if that matters.

And I mean, it wasn't always men. He was in a 3'some with a married couple, both he and the husband fucked the wife, did nothing with each other. Then he was in a 4'some with two women and one other man, no M4M sex during that one either, just 2 dudes taking turns fucking 2 women.

He was also looking for BBW to "broaden his variety", and was also looking to be a "dom" who would not only control his sub sexually when they met in person, but control the daily life of his "sub" via text; tell her what color underwear to wear that day, tell her when to masturbate, etc. (this one was posted right before d-day and never came to fruition, thankfully)

I know, I know, like how can he NOT be bi? I just don't get it. But the whole romantic or physical attraction to men, and/or emotional thoughts or feelings for men...he says ABSOLUTELY NOT.

I don't get ANYTHING about this disgusting dark world of CL.

I've had 3 therapists tell me they don't think he's gay/bi & I've had 2 tell me they don't think he is a SA.

My own therapist says she thinks he may have been "addicted" to the sex as an escape, especially because it escalated from having sex with one woman from a CL ad years ago, to what it ended up as.

But it's "mild" in that he seems he hit rock bottom, and can walk away without looking back. She doesn't think we would have worry about a "relapse", or worry about battling it his whole life like a typical SA.

She says he isn't a full out sex addict. His actions in the past year+ have separated him from a typical SA.

So it's like, IDK what to even think. And he can't really lie about anything, because my therapist and his therapist are within the same office/group practice, and we allow them to share all info.

Some days I feel my head will explode from the confusion. I have such conflict some days about staying, but then I think about leaving and that sounds horrible.

Can you ask if someone thinks they're bi or gay on a poly because I've seriously debated it.

As for the e-mails he says they rarely talked dirty. It was mainly just setting up a place/time to meet. The two I saw didn't really talk dirty at all like that, it was more like...

(In reply to FWH's ad, which was along the line of 'looking for a BJ after fucking some other dude, still have MDMA in my system, still high from it, don't want the high to go to waste, blah blah blah...)

OM: "I'll suck it, I have poppers, here's my address"

FWH: "I'm on my way, in this color car, where should I park?"

OM: "Park in driveway, my house is this color."

FWH:"Ok, when I get there, put on straight porn and go slow with lots of tongue"

And that was about it.

FWH sniffed the poppers during orgasm. He was also always on MDMA during M4M encounters and would only reply to men who had MDMA available.

[This message edited by HowIsThisReal at 2:03 PM, January 29th (Sunday)]

My god, reading my last post though...like who the FUCK did he become during all this!? He was a fucking disgusting slime-ball!

So HOW is he also this caring, sweet man who would think of me while the store, and get me "treats" or my favorite kind of ice cream or whatever?

How was he this sweet man who would play-wrestle with me on our bed, and we'd laugh until it hurt?

How is he the awesome dad who LOVES taking his kids fishing or to the movies?

How is he the awesome family man who loved family day trips?

How is he this awesome husband who has always helped with the housework, laundry, dishes, etc?

(while the moms in the groups I was in would be complaining that their H's did nothing to help out around the house)

How is he this awesome dad who has slept on the living room floor with sick, puking children? Gone to almost every parent/teacher meeting and/or Dr appointment, changed every baby's first diaper in the hospital so that I could rest, etc.

(while the moms in the groups I was in would be complaining that their H's had never changed a diaper, never been to a single dr appointment, never given their child a bath, etc.)

How can these 2 people even be the same person?

Why did he, and our M have to be so great in all these other aspects? Making it almost impossible for me to want to walk away?

[This message edited by HowIsThisReal at 2:11 PM, January 29th (Sunday)]

Bonnie has a free monthly newsletter each month and has lived over 20 yrs of the agony in this thread.

BonKaye@aol.com

Really helped me out.

Is it for husbands who have come out as gay? I googled it but it seems more for people who have since D'd due to husbands coming out.

OK I just went down the checklist of "signs" and NONE of them describe FWH, other than the obvious that he slept with men.

What a mind fuck this all is.

[This message edited by HowIsThisReal at 6:48 PM, January 29th (Sunday)]

HITR- my WH does dishes, laundry, takes kids to swimming and gymnastics, fishes, camps, bike rides. Reads stories, rubs my back constantly... And had sexual encounters with so many random people. He was the bottom once.... But apparently liked to swing and gang fuck married women.... It's so gross... He put himself into a bdsm train with men (he was the last one).... He says that was the lowest point, while a bunch of the women laughed at them all...

There is such a dichotomy from the man I know and the acts he did... It's like they are two separate people (mental illness is rampant in his family)

Most the time I just feel sad that he degraded himself that way- what a meaningless life...

I decided to support him while he actively works on being healthy. One slip and he's gone- and I told him I will NEVER lie for him. Hopefully, the thought of ruining his babies lives is enough to keep me safe until they leave the nest... I'll keep you posted.

I'm not sure what a BDSM train is, I don't think my FWH had ventured into BDSM yet, other than that one ad where he was looking to be a woman's "Dom" by text. I'm sure he would have gotten more into it, if he kept going down the path he was on.

It sounds like our husbands are similar. It's so fucked up isn't it? They're good husbands and fathers and then in secret they do these disgusting things.

They're good husbands and fathers yet they risked their family's stability and rocked the family foundation with their own selfish actions.

I either want to stay because we can work, or go if we can't. We worked so well for so long, we had chemistry and romance, so I'd like to think we can work, obviously as long as he's not gay, which MOST signs point to no on that. But the biggest one, fucking men, is hard to ignore.

I may really look into asking about it on a poly. Couldn't it be worded as "do you feel/think that you are anything other than heterosexual?" Or "do you feel/think that you could be bisexual or homosexual?"

How about "do you truly believe you are completely heterosexual?"

I'm so sorry to read about all of that HITR. I have soooo much to respond but I don't have the time at this moment. I will come back to this after today. I cannot even imagine how you must feel I thankgod sometimes that I caught on so early in his wayward tendencies. Though also, like yours, he was sweet and thoughtful and a good person outside of these actions (aside from the lies) and we had such good times. All of which are tainted by the thought of his long term infidelity.

Part of me wonders...where they extra kind and compassionate and patient just because they knew how much wrong they were doing? Was it sort of a hidden apology for their actions?... actually a lot of me wonders these and many more to come...

My FWH was sweet and kind before the cheating ever started, so I want to believe that's who he really is. We have 7+ years of "clean" memories before he started all this in 2008.

It's like Jekyll and Hyde when I think of the choices he made.

I asked him about being gay again last night. He says nope. I asked how he knows, he said he just knows, the same way that I know that I'm straight.

[This message edited by HowIsThisReal at 1:30 PM, January 30th (Monday)]

Back to this...

HITR, did he show any difference in behavior or attitude? Was he really able to just act zero percent different while suddenly changing who he was to the core? I struggle with this myself. I cannot pinpoint any difference in his behavior just my responses to things he'd say. I remember one day I wanted him to back up and give me space and it never went away. And looking back I feel like t was around the same time.

I cannot even touch on how bad their actions are. My heart aches for every word that is spilled about this awful act that these men have done. It really makes me want to cry.

It really disturbs me how many people there are in this exact situation. How can they cover this behavior so well? How does it not affect them?

Can I ask you all who've been dealing with this so much longer than I, how did they SHOW remorse. I just don't understand how to pinpoint what it looks like. Maybe chalk it up to me being young and naive...maybe it's my inexperience with this whole thing. I don't know. I wish I had something better to say.

I feel like I had better things to say earlier when I first commented but they all left my head. Typical of my spacey brain lately.

I'm sorry I ask so many questions. I just feel like I need help and I need to understand. I feel like an annoying preteen who knows nothing about puberty but knows it's coming and asks a million uncomfortable questions that everyone gets annoyed by but knows I need to know so tells me anyways. Is it like that?

And yeah you know you're straight... but I can guess you haven't gone off and fucked a hundred women and give them oral as well as received... that's a terrible comparison to make. And to be honest about this claim that just because he's not emotionally engaged with men that he's "not bi" I think it's bull. I do not desire a relationship with women. I don't want to get emotional and be like a couple. I am only sexually attracted to women so I consider myself bi. I know I am. But it's only because of my attraction to the sexes. However with men I have the whole desire for emotional attachment as well as sexual attraction. My two cents on the straight or bi topic.