SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I have never been able to get behind the mentality that the WS should happily eat a shit sandwich for life after an affair, especially those who have done the work and have tried to save their marriages but continue to get abused, talked down to, vilified, and given a scarlet letter. I read things here that completely baffle my mind on both sides, things written by BS and WS.

I agree, but speaking for myself, what I have read on SI, there seem to be very few instances of this. Yes, there is the once in a while gross person who things they can abuse their spouse, but I would say this is pretty unusual.

Most of us just want our partners to become honest people that we can trust again, and will no longer settle for anything less. That's not the same as expecting them to eat a shit sandwich for the rest of their days.

I agree, but speaking for myself, what I have read on SI, there seem to be very few instances of this. Yes, there is the once in a while gross person who things they can abuse their spouse, but I would say this is pretty unusual.

I can think of several including some active people that post over in Reconciliation now. I remember a WS man here (won't share his name) whose wife was absolutely awful to him for years because he wasn't living up to what she wanted him to do.

I think there has to be a point where if your WS isn't doing what you want them to, isn't becoming the person you need them to be, then you need to leave. Staying is just punishing you both. I know its on the WS to do the work, and heal the BS and heal themselves. Sometimes its just not an option.

Godheals,

First, I think it's always good to reevaluate how helpful we are being with each other, so I think it's a worthwhile topic.

When I post to fellow WS, I try and do so with their healing in mind. Because if they heal, they are going to be better for themselves and better for those around them.

Like you, I confessed on my own, therefore I know how hard it is to blindside your spouse. The reason I place a lot of emphasis on confessing is because I am of the belief that we are as sick as our darkest secrets. In order to fully heal, we have to eliminate to whatever extent possible the shame we are carrying around. The feelings of inherent worthlessness. Our confession is not just for the BS, it's for ourselves.

I am of the belief that one of the things that heals shame is moving forward with dignity and integrity and honor. Doing our best. When we carry our secret of infidelity, we can't fully escape that lack of integrity because we are still harboring a big lie.

I think some can convince themselves they are taking the higher road by not telling their spouse. Sparing them the pain of it. Not having that experience, maybe you can heal if you believe your justification enough. I personally feel like for me it would have been choosing to harbor shame. And, that means continuing to cope with unhealthy feelings rather than just eradicating them.

I don't agree with all the posts on this site. Especially the BTW ones. I think sometimes this site can be dealing with cross purposes because the WS who heal have to come to a place of acceptance, self-compassion, and let go of things to a certain extent. So, I understand what you mean with keeping that feeling fresh when you are already remorseful. I can relate to what you are saying there.

I will say after some time I can finally read BS pain and realize that it has nothing to do with me. I don't mean that my BS's pain has nothing to do with me, but that we are all at different stages of healing. If a BS is venting, their vent is because of something that just has nothing to do with me. It's about their pain, their experience, and their WS. Do some use sweeping language that make it sound like it includes me because it's about all WS? Sure. But, I can still read it and know that it doesn't have to condemn me with it. I will never think I made a good decision to cheat or that it wasn't the worst decision of my life, I have just come to understand that it doesn't have to define my life moving forward. In fact, if it does it means that I have not found a way to heal, that I do not have compassion or love for myself.

This kind of language is confusing to some BS because it sounds selfish and non-caring. It isn't. It is the actual result you want for the work for your spouse to be safe. It's very counter-intuitive. Many of us have had to work our ways out of co-dependency, being yes people, etc. So my saying NO to more things could look more selfish to some. To me it means I respect myself enough to have boundaries I didn't before. Healing from infidelity is an entire shift of self. Reconciling requires the shift of the relationship with both people having a shifting of self. It's not for everyone. And, I personally think the "template" approach worked okay for me. I just had to take the parts that worked and leave the rest. It's hard to know sometimes the difference. Noone on this site is an authority, but the ones that have been successful have a lot in common that means some of that "group logic" has some fairly reliable truths.

I don't mean that my BS's pain has nothing to do with me, but that we are all at different stages of healing. If a BS is venting, their vent is because of something that just has nothing to do with me. It's about their pain, their experience, and their WS. Do some use sweeping language that make it sound like it includes me because it's about all WS? Sure. But, I can still read it and know that it doesn't have to condemn me with it. I will never think I made a good decision to cheat or that it wasn't the worst decision of my life, I have just come to understand that it doesn't have to define my life moving forward. In fact, if it does it means that I have not found a way to heal, that I do not have compassion or love for myself.

This is exactly right. 100% how I feel. Everyone (friends and family) in my life knows about my affair, my marriage and my separation. And no one judges me. That is what matters to me. I have forgiven myself and gotten myself out of infidelity. It just doesn't look like what is the "script" here. I think many posters here do think there is a one size fits all to WS and that's just not the case.

Healing, reconciliation and marriage are a range of values. Honesty is binary.

Exactly. For me, there is no R w/o honesty (and that's why I'm not in R)

Most of us just want our partners to become honest people that we can trust again, and will no longer settle for anything less. That's not the same as expecting them to eat a shit sandwich for the rest of their days.

Put me in this camp.

then you need to leave

Funny how a BS giving "advice" about being honest (esp WRT a WS who never give their BS the basic, binary, decent, "gift" of honesty), is met with "you need to leave". It's a heckuva lot easier said than done. For folks who are in situations where that was the path of least resistance, good for them. I wish them all peace and strength in their next chapters. Others may not have (or "see" ) that particular path, and what I "hear" in the oft-repeated anthem of "just leave" is, IMHO, lacking in empathy for whatever speedbumps may be in that path. Sometimes it's the practical (kids, or money - hell, I don't have a fucking job, in the midst of a pandemic), sometimes its the emotional (PTSD from the A, FOO, etc), and sometimes its a combination of both, or other factors. In any event, there's a difference between offering empathy and support to someone struggling with these things and saying: then you should leave.

I never cheated. But I have plenty to be accountable for. The easiest example in my life is my shitty parenting. I can assign a ton of blame to a lot of it to my WH's As, distancing, etc., as it was EXACTLY when his EA turned PA when I pretty well fell apart. Even though I was gaslight for YEARS and did get into counseling, I am still responsible for my own behavior, for my own sometimes shitty parenting. That will NEVER go away. Never. No matter how much of a wonderful parent I can be today and in the future, the fact is, there were times in my kids' lives when I just was not emotionally available for them, where I did not have the emotional "space" to help them in the ways THEY needed help. And my behavior caused some pretty huge fucking damage.

Does that mean I spend the rest of my life eating the parental version of shit sandwich? No. Does it mean I can never experience joy WRT my kids or have a healthy relationship with them? Of course not (tho it can also mean that my kids will never want to have that kind of relationship with me - that they will need to distance to preserve their emotional health). But it does mean that I spend the rest of my life being conscious of my role in the ways in which my kids were damaged as a direct result of MY choices. Not living in shame, but living in CONSCIOUSNESS and EMPATHY, even when one of my kids is reading me the riot act about the shitty things they experienced because of me.

I always thought THAT is what healing is supposed to look like. The strength and courage to "hear" the pain we've caused, to provide support to the person(s) harmed and their healing journey, and the wherewithal and coping skills to tend to our own wounds from "hearing" and empathizing with that other's pain on our own damn time & to share whatever the harmed person seeks (IOW, my kids don't get unsolicited "whys" from me - but when solicited, I'm happy to discuss & explore anything & everything THEY wish to). To me, it matters not if that place is due to cheating or crummy parenting.... when our own shitty choices or behavior harm another and (in many cases) permanently change the trajectory of another's life, I think it's the least we can do, particularly for those we profess to "love".

And isn't that view of "healing" what SI aspires to? Isn't that what the "template" seeks to achieve?

[This message edited by gmc94 at 10:51 AM, December 14th, 2020 (Monday)]

As far as ff is concerned, he is not in R and never will be as long as he does not confess. He should not have posted in that thread.

I have seen multiple instances on the site where the BS ended the marriage after discovery of a long ended affair. One particularly tragic outcome that I don't need to restate. So, yes, there is a risk to WS in confessing, if saving THEIR OWN marriage (at the expense of the BS) is their primary goal.

My goal for ff's relationship is that this site be open to his BS should she ever uncover his A. She has the priority over ff. If there are people here who stump for ff, point to all the work he's done and that he should get credit for time served, I do not view that within the scope of the site and will fight it.

It never fails to amaze me at how continually selfish and manipulative people can be about topics as "rights" and "choices" and "decisions", but in particular, those people who voice their anger and frustrations the loudest and most fervently are the very people who took those very same things away from others in the first place, and still are in some cases. And now we are here, arguing over why those same people feel so unfairly treated when THEIR rights, choices and decisions are suddenly threatened by others, and how we, the people trying to help them, are somehow the "real" bad people for suggesting to them that they cannot heal or grow while continuing to hurt others. "See how unfair we are to them? How cruel? How we are just seeking power and control over others? How their feelings don't matter? How dare we tell them what works!" They are here, screaming "Help me! What should I do?" after failing, after destroying their own lives and the lives of the spouses, families and friends around them, here they came running for help from us, and when it is given. freely and with great hope... suddenly, that can't possibly be right? "You mean, I have actually confront my feelings? I have to do and feel difficult things such as being vulnerable and having empathy for others? I have to hurt? My BS has to hurt? I have to suffer consequences for my actions? What kind of bullshit is that? Can't I just say sorry and move on with this? Where are the ruby red slippers and the bippity-boppity-boo? Why do I have to be an asshole and hurt my spouse more by telling them? (Which is weird because they didn't seem to have a problem with hurting their spouses plenty when it was to their advantage to do so?)"

Let me break this down to its most simple form for people.

Someone who cheated, is, by their very definition, someone who lied, misled, betrayed, manipulated and gas-lit others. Period.

For the sake of brevity, let's just stick with the term "liar" which is really the heart of it all.

"There seems to be an SI 'playbook' and there is only one way for everyone to proceed. Why can't there be another way? Is it because you guys are selfish and just want everything done your own way? You just like to hear yourselves talk and feel superior about yourselves?" (A summarized quote)

The WS'nish is this statement is staggering. Yes, that is correct, there is only one playbook, and only one way. In its simplest form, this is the truth...

THE ONLY WAY TO NOT BE A LIAR IS TO NOT LIE, AND TELL THE TRUTH INSTEAD.

Now in fairness, since some are arguing here that there should be a second playbook for those whom playbook #1 doesn't fit, I ask you, please, what is the other option here? Please explain to me how a liar can continue to lie and yet "experience a lot of personal growth in that area"? How can they continue to lie and yet claim they are not because "they don't lie anymore" while still not confessing (which is called lying) to their spouses? How do they claim to now be better spouses, simply because they stopped having an affair and are trying to assuage their guilt by being nice to their spouses who are still in the dark? What has changed? How are they now safer people for their partners? We can talk all day long about how they saw an IC, and how they cried, and how they feed puppies in the park now, but at the end of the day, they lied. They did, they lied. And the end result of that lie was that it was covered up, remains covered up and always will, which in most crimes is known as "getting away with it, covering up the evidence and acting as if it nothing happened", and there is nothing noble or good or kind or truthful in that. That, is a criminal, being a criminal. Nothing has changed. Nothing.

"YOU DON"T HAVE THE RIGHT TO MAKE THE DECISION TO TELL ME WHAT'S RIGHT FOR ME AND MY FAMILY. I KNOW MY LIFE, YOU DON'T, SO F--- OFF"

I hear that one all the time, from the people that did, and still are, making those very same decisions for the spouses and families om a daily basis, and yet, can't bear to see that in themselves. THEY are the victims, the cheaters and liars, THEY are the victims here in their own eyes, and they'll be damned if anyone else is going to do to them what they did and still are doing to others. And then they give you such a guilt trip over it that we, the people trying to help, end up feeling as if somehow we're the assholes for having to take time out of our day, and the work on our own relationships, to help them instead, and not doing so in a way that doesn't get their panties in a bunch. They are still gas-lighting themselves and us. And some of us still fall for it.

Sorry, but I won't pretend to be nice for the sake of another wayward's hurt feelings. I won't pet your little head and tell you what a special person you really are deep down. And I sure as hell don't give a damn how you feel about me in the least, so don't bother.

My wife and I were discussing things the other day, and we noted that human nature is as follows... "We all expect others to think, feel and act as we do. If we are loving, caring, giving people, we expect others to treat us the same way, and are shocked when they do not. If we are deceitful, manipulative, selfish people, then we expect others to lie to and manipulate us, and are shocked when they do not". What we are dealing with here is the latter. They literally look at telling the truth as harmful, and continued lying and covering up as "moral and considerate" to their victims. The thought that this is self-serving is to them, just rediculous, just more of an attempt to "control them" somehow.

After D-Day, in my full wayward fog, I was confident my wife was corrupt as I was. I figured she was cheating already or would. I assumed she was lying to me, controlling me, just trying to get her own way. I thought she was incredibly selfish and uncaring. She seemed to have no empathy at all for me and my pain! I saw her as a bad wife, a bad mom, a bad everything really, and slept with one eye open, always wondering why she was over-reacting with so much hate towards me. I thought these things because that's how MY spineless, selfish brain worked at the time. And you could not have told me differently... or more accurately stated, I was simply incapable of hearing it, or accepting it and owning it. I was scared, afraid, hurt, lost, and lashing out, looking for anyone to put the rug back under my feet that I myself had yanked out. It was all about me for several years aftward. So when I give others shit about this, please understand, I do not do some from the position of feeling "superior" or "successful" in any way. I come from the position of, "I AM THAT person, I have been there, made those same mistakes, and I did SO MUCH MORE FUCKING DAMAGE to myself, my spouse, kids, family, friends, coworkers, community... I am not here to preach to others to "be like me". I am sharing my experiences, and more than anything, I am sharing what time and time again turns out to be a universal truth... you cannot continue to do the wrong thing and yet heal or grow from it, and you sure as hell don't get to brag to other about how great you are doing and how they should feel free to do the same. You don't get to brand others, who have successfully (so far) done the hard work and had the hard conversations and point fingers at us for daring to offer solid advice, even when that advice comes out in a way you don't like. We're stern because you're in the middle of having a temper tantrum until you get your way, and guess what? You ain't gonna get it.

More than anything, IMO, no one, not a WS, not even another BS, has the right to advise anyone else to continue to take the decision, the choice and the knowledge away from another BS. If it worked out for you somehow, fine, you can share that story! What we cannot do however is remove the right from other BS's to know the truth about their own lives and sometimes even their own health. We do not get to place the WS's "rights and feelings" above the betrayed spouse's rights and feelings, or the BS ends up being raped and betrayed over and over again. And we sure as hell don't get too smug about it.

I am going to leave you with two quotes from Brene Brown that I feel sum things up nicely:

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”

And this one:

“If you are not in the arena also getting your ass kicked, I’m not interested in your feedback”

I have never been able to get behind the mentality that the WS should happily eat a shit sandwich for life after an affair, especially those who have done the work and have tried to save their marriages but continue to get abused, talked down to, vilified, and given a scarlet letter. I read things here that completely baffle my mind on both sides, things written by BS and WS.

I think that if a WS is here in good faith trying their damndest to untangle their shit, be open and honest, and get help with doing their work, then they should be commended for it. I can only imagine it is a very daunting thing to commit to doing.

I think there has to be a point where if your WS isn't doing what you want them to, isn't becoming the person you need them to be, then you need to leave. Staying is just punishing you both. I know its on the WS to do the work, and heal the BS and heal themselves. Sometimes its just not an option.

Mostly agree, except I don't necessarily think it is on the WS to heal their BS. Give them the truth? Yes. No further lying? Check. But just MHO as a BS, but I think a lot of BS's expect their WS to heal them, and I think that's not quite right. A BS has to drive their own healing. The WS assists with that by being open and honest, communicating with their BS, working to become a safe partner so their BS can feel more secure, but ultimately it is up to the BS to manage their own healing.

I think it does a disservice to both BS and WS to put the BS's healing on the WS. Just my 0.02.

I think it does a disservice to both BS and WS to put the BS's healing on the WS. Just my 0.02.

So just curious, if you break a vase, do you help to fix it, or do you leave it up to somebody else to do?

Mostly agree, except I don't necessarily think it is on the WS to heal their BS. Give them the truth? Yes. No further lying? Check. But just MHO as a BS, but I think a lot of BS's expect their WS to heal them, and I think that's not quite right. A BS has to drive their own healing. The WS assists with that by being open and honest, communicating with their BS, working to become a safe partner so their BS can feel more secure, but ultimately it is up to the BS to manage their own healing.

I agree that each party needs to do some work to survive infidelity. I don't think the work looks exactly the same between BS and W. The W helps the BS's healing in the ways you mention. That IS helping them to heal. Can they do all of it? No, but they certainly have the power to make it easier or even worse.

However, it's up to BOTH people to heal the marriage/relationship. The W does often take the majority share of that effort because they're the ones who broke it in the first place. They smashed the vase. They need to fix it. The BS can offer the glue.

[This message edited by landclark at 11:20 AM, December 14th (Monday)]

Daddydom..that was a post worthy of being pinned on the top of this forum page.

***standing ovation**

So just curious, if you break a vase, do you help to fix it, or do you leave it up to somebody else to do?

If I break my vase? Then I fix it. If someone else breaks my vase? Then they fix it, and I decide if I can live with it being repaired and looking different than it was before it got broken.

I'm just saying that I think it's misguided (tho understandable) for a BS to say "it's my WS's responsibility to heal me". Just IMHO, it's the BS's work to heal themselves and decide if they can deal with their new reality. The WS can certainly (and should) help in that healing by working to become a safe partner, but the BS's healing process is something each BS should be managing. Not saying it's fair, mind you.

First of all I am very grateful for the FWW who are able to continue to post and help new WW here. I know that I have not been around much to help. It seems hard for me because it puts me back. Some are able to separate that better then me. I hope I get to that point in my life. I don’t know how they are able to do it but they can.

Thank you all for posting and it’s ok we get off topic because there are always things we need to talk about.

Maybe instead of saying throwing stones where I feel like people do maybe it’s more of people trying to Challenge the person in their thinking. Maybe get them to think about it in a different way. Yes I am team tell the truth. New WW come on here who not told the truth yes we all need to be team tell the truth.

There are certain people who been here for a while and we have repeated over and over again what they need to do but can’t come to terms with doing it for whatever reason. They need to be able to see this first in order for any of us to help them. I don’t think backing off is saying we are ok with it. It’s learning that they need to continue to work on themselves first and better then we are able to help.

I don’t think it’s ok to keep this from your spouse and have express this to this person before. I also don’t think I am helping them by bring it up non stop to them either. I have called this person out in a different way and get a great feedback. I think deep down this person knows what is right and just can’t do it. So at this point this person needs to be able to get themselves on their own and see that for themselves.

I think someone said I might feel better then and that is why o put myself out there. I feel like I do know better because I have been there and done that. But by all mean I don’t better then people because I told my H the truth. I do know better when it comes to that feeling of telling the truth on your own and how hard it is. Sorry most WW don’t know that feeling. Just like I said before I don’t know the feelings a BS has because I have never experience that. I can tell a person a new WS what my H and I story. Tell them what my H felt and this how he reacted. But at the end of day there will be a part of this I can’t drive home hard on how he really felt because there is a physical part to this he felt that I will never know about.

That is where I am coming from with all this. I have always been there is two sides of every story (in general not talking about infidelity) and a person who can give advice about certain things but if I have never experience there situation before I feel like there is so much I can say to help them but they need to be willing to help themselves first before my words matter.

Backing off someone don’t mean we are saying this is ok. Sometimes backing off a person just means we need to wait for them to come around in their own. It don’t mean we are giving up either. It comes to a point where we have given our voice and express our opinion about what is right and wrong over and over again where I do think they know but just needs to get there themselves. I hope this person is able to get there one day.

hikingout Thank you for your words. You seem to have a gift of knowing what to say and how to say who has helped a lot of people.

pinkpggy- There is a lot things said on here that really shock me. Things I don’t see in my H and he acts differently. I am not saying it’s right or wrong but my H seems to act and think different. There are things we do know I think some might freak out but it’s what my H needs from me that maybe a lot disagrees with. There was a time before my A that I didn’t speak up and let my H say and do whatever. He loves the fact that I now speak up and stand up for myself. My silence is a trigger for him. If his being a jerk he wants me to call him out on that. I do. He thanks me for it a lot. He knows he can be a jerk. We have learned a lot and what we need to do to make this M work now. He knows what he needs to do and how he treated me before BUT it’s still no excuse for what I did and we can separate that. Same goes for me. It didn’t matter how he treated me it was no excuse for my choices. Are we always on the same page. No not always when it comes to certain typical marriage issues but we are on the same page on what we need to do in order to make this M work.

There might be some people here that disagree with what I said and that’s ok. There will always be some handbook rules that every WS needs to follow in order to become a person. I will always stick by that. We all think and feel different also. I maybe think different from other FWW on here and maybe did it a little different. That’s ok. I just know at the end of the day my H and I got there together.

“It's a heckuva lot easier said than done”

Yes a million times! Thank you. It is always easier said then done!

Nicely done, Daddydom.

And if anyone would like to get outraged about this part:

We do not get to place the WS's "rights and feelings" above the betrayed spouse's rights and feelings, or the BS ends up being raped and betrayed over and over again.

I will gladly defend it alongside him.

If you cheated and are hiding it whether it has been 3 hours, 3 days, 3 years, 30 years, you have removed your BSs consent to being in a sexual relationship with you. I can assure you that I did not consent to having sex with my XWH while he was having sex with others. That is not something I would have agreed to or exposed my body to. No one who respects me would put me in the position to have sex under false pretenses.

The problem isn't "oh how sad this WS will be if he/she has to tell". The problem is that we are in the audience watching you lie to your BS. We are watching ongoing infidelity and being asked to accept that "sometimes it's okay". We are being asked to accept that it's okay to disrespect your BS. It's okay to patronize her with the fiction that she knows what her marriage was. It's okay to mislead her and make a fool of her. And hey, if we can't agree that it's okay, we should just STFU because it's not in our control anyway, it's in your control. That's nice, watching you control someone else's reality as if you have any more right to than anyone else.

Can you imagine landing here after finding out that infidelity happened years ago in your marriage and seeing that your spouse has been given support about not telling you? This place would become less than worthless to you immediately and that is a loss. That is like a betrayal from the site itself. One more slap in the face. Like it or not, with infidelity there is a perpetrator and a victim. The victim doesn't deserve to be disregarded in favor of making the perpetrator feel good about lying to them.

For the record I don’t support that it is ok for someone to hide the truth about their A.

I have given my voice to this person over and over again in what’s right. I see this person not there yet. Just because I don’t throw stones at this person don’t mean I support it.

And yes I will say throwing stones because that’s how I see it. Sorry. But again that JMO....

I do talk to him about it without throwing stones. I

For the record I don’t support that it is ok for someone to hide the truth about their A.

I have given my voice to this person over and over again in what’s right. I see this person not there yet. Just because I don’t throw stones at this person don’t mean I support it.

And yes I will say throwing stones because that’s how I see it. Sorry. But again that JMO....

I do talk to him about it without throwing stones.

I kinda get what you're driving at but I respectfully disagree. Telling someone that their thinking in a certain aspect is fundamentally flawed because of the thousands upon thousands of stories on SI that prove how flawed it is isn't 'throwing stones'. It is sharing truth. Sure the person might not be in a place to embrace said truth just yet, but I still think reiterating it is important. Even if it doesn't help that particular person, it might help others.

BS's have similar struggles too. Seeing a struggling BS that is dealing with an unremorseful WS... I get it - I was there. I didn't want to believe that about my ws either. I didn't want to face that truth. But SIers kept telling me. And telling me. And telling me some more. And I argued and stomped my feet and said they didn't know wtf they were talking about. But they did because of allllll those thousands of stories and experiences just like mine. And thank god they kept telling me over and over again. Did I appreciate it at the time? No. Do I appreciate it now? You betcha.

Just because a truth is hard or worded sternly or isn't received well doesn't mean it's not worth speaking it.

Sometimes backing off a person just means we need to wait for them to come around in their own. It don’t mean we are giving up either. It comes to a point where we have given our voice and express our opinion about what is right and wrong over and over again where I do think they know but just needs to get there themselves. I hope this person is able to get there one day.

Let's stop tip toeing around it. You started this thread because of what people say to FF.

You think we should wait until he eventually realizes he has no right to keep his wife in the dark,and tells her the truth.

He's been a member for over FOUR YEARS. He refuses any advice that he should tell his wife. As he has said in this thread, he skips over that advice because he is tired of being told to do the right thing. He is CLEARLY never going to tell her. That doesn't mean we won't keep telling him its ok.

You used a drug addict as an example earlier. Someone I love is an addict(clean now for 5 years). After awhile, we realized we couldn't make her get clean,she had to do it on her own. But,at no point, did we ever look the other way,and say it was ok to use heroin.

As I said earlier,i will continue to tell FF he should confess. I know its pointless. But I will not allow a lurking WS to think that it is ok to not confess. I will never disrespect another BS by telling her it is ok that they were kept in the dark, simply because their WS stopped cheating and they were sorry.

Sorry, but I won't pretend to be nice for the sake of another wayward's hurt feelings. I won't pet your little head and tell you what a special person you really are deep down. And I sure as hell don't give a damn how you feel about me in the least, so don't bother.

For the record, I didn't know this was all fallout from something specific that happened here when I posted earlier. I haven't been on as much and haven't followed everything as closely as I once did. If I understand correctly this is about a post FF made in positive reconciliation stories?

I highlighted here what daddy dom said because while I understand what he is saying it depends on how it's applied.

FF in my mind is welcome in the WS forum. I have seen him grow and evolve over the four years and I have seen some true work and genuine struggle. I have compassion for him in the way that we have all been where he is even if it was for a shorter period of time. So, if he's posting things he is working on and wants feedback, that seems appropriate to me because to me that might mean one step closer to addressing all the areas, including a confession. So, in that way I understand Godheals and her compassion. The wayward forum has to maintain that atmosphere as much as possible. I don't feel like I have to punctuate all his posts with "now confess" when it comes to this forum. Though I have tried to make a strong case for it to him from time to time since I got here 3.5 years ago.

But, when we are talking about this being a positive reconciliation story, that's where it falls apart for me. Reconciliation means that both people are choosing to move forward with all the information. Furthermore, It means the WS has healed, and to me FF can't heal his shame while holding this secret. In my opinion, he will always feel "less than" what he could if he eradicated the sources of his shame as fully as he can. Simply put, this is not a "template" this site would hold up as a valid choice and for many good reasons.

And to be fair, even when I thought H and I were getting there I would not have considered posting our story in that forum. It would have been greeted with "well I bet that's not the way he sees it". And, to be fair, in my case that probably would be right. The WS who could post in that forum and be taken seriously would be a rare one if I am being honest.

At the end of the day, it's a mis-step that probably should not have occurred (if this is what happened), people are going to understandably feel a bit outraged about it. Had I seen it, I know I would have felt it was not appropriate.

Context of what is being posted and where matters a lot. I feel like as far as WS go and posting in the WS forum then compassion and constructive feedback do not have to be mutually exclusive. It's actually kind of hypocritical I feel like as a WS to be too condemning of behavior I am obviously capable of.

All WS have played to our victim role at some time or another. Most who arrive here or are actively posting here are in enough pain that I don't feel like we have to say the truth without compassion. In that way, I will do some "head petting" and then outline/encourage of the next step.

None of what I said apply to BS really. If the post has no stop sign then I feel they post whatever they see fit as long as it's within the guidelines of the forum. Someone who doesn't want that has a stop sign.

Edited to add: I just went over to the R stories, I also didn't know Daddy Dom posted over there as well, so please do not take my comments about not posting over there and it being a "rare" WS who could to be about you, Daddy Dom. Your wife is on here, I think you would be one of the "rare ones". Anyway, I didn't want my comment to be misconstrued as some sort of jab at you. I have just been behind the 8 ball in knowing what the heck is going on! Thanks!

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:10 PM, December 14th (Monday)]

It's actually kind of hypocritical I feel like as a WS to be too condemning of behavior I am obviously capable of.

I feel the same. Had I not been caught cheating, I probably would have either never confessed and taken it to the grave, whether or not I worked on my side of the marriage, or I would have divorced my H without confessing and, had I chosen to re-start the previous legitimate relationship with OM, presented it to family and friends as something that “just happened” after the divorce.

I admire those of y’all wayward spouses who confess on their own. I understand the self-preservation instinct of those who don’t. I respect those of y’all who work your butts off on your marriages after being caught—that’s something I never had to deal with as my H divorced me right away. I also empathize with y’all whose spouses divorced you or who chose divorce yourselves.

We all have our own stories and circumstances here. Some of us will choose to change those circumstances; some of us won’t; some of us will have them changed for us by our spouse. I respect all points of view and I can’t see into anyone else’s mind or heart and therefore can’t speak to their decisions.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 3:11 PM, December 14th (Monday)]

I think what strikes me is when people are kind and try to help, some folks are still mean and lash out when the comments don't fit their narrative. That brings me back to WOES comments. What to do then? Ignore if the comments could damage other folks who could have some of their pain (current and future) ameliorated? And by their pain I mean WS and BS alike.