SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

That wasn't "look at this excel spreadsheet" on a Wednesday.

That didn't happen for YOU Dear Lady...but from what I have seen on here...something very similar HAS happened to someone on this site.

I've not yet been tempted to destroy or complicate my job over sex.

My H has always felt that way as well. He said it more crudely though. HIS fantasy though was to use a woman who was a stranger. Fuck her and leave her .

I on the other hand didn't CARE when I sought to have an RA after I caught my XWH in his A for the first time. My only criteria was a warm single male body. I knew one guy who was single and who I could get to that night...and I set out to have my own A. A red light...I call it Divine Intervention ...caused me to stop long enough to come to my senses...and I didn't go through with it. This particular guy was someone my XWH worked with. THAT would have been a MESS...but I didn't think ahead that far. I can imagine MANY people in a situation like I was in also have this frame of mind at one time or another.

Dee, can I please ask - you say you would assume he cheated or had some weird views on women. Would it enter your mind at all that he may have been propositioned or falsely accused when in that situation before?

I'm curious about this idea of what people would assume based on observing someone saying no to a car ride. In this case, it was about 20 people and it was part of what caused my panic. I was concerned about the assumptions people would draw and that as someone else said - it would sexualise a non-sexual situation through people's assumptions. And in so doing, potentially out my wife as a betrayed spouse which is something she has chosen never to do except with members of my immediate family to whom we agreed I would out myself in the early days of R.

Ironically, in my case I DID cheat so they would be right. My instinct in that moment wasn't about protecting me though. I'm very successful at work and have nothing to prove except to myself. It was about keeping my wife's confidence.

I guess what I'm asking is, do you think that panic was coming from a good place or a self interested place? Was my lack of red flag that should have stopped me saying yes regardless of the consequences, based on something intrinsically broken in myself, or was my thought process acceptable and I simply came to the wrong conclusion at the end of it? Sort of like getting the working out right but still having the wrong answer in a maths test.

My view so far is there is a deeper brokenness that needs exploring. I'll be re-entering IC as this has just added to an already established issue of work/life balance that is costing me a healthy relationship with my family. This was last straw though for sure.

Everyone's insights are so valuable. Thank you!

Dee, can I please ask - you say you would assume he cheated or had some weird views on women. Would it enter your mind at all that he may have been propositioned or falsely accused when in that situation before?

No, it wouldn't. Fair or not. I've known tons of women who have been sexually harassed in such situations and tons of men in my religious family who have weird ideas about women. Billy Graham is quite popular amongst them and they seem to take from his teachings that women are temptresses to be avoided because men lack proper self control. I know that men are falsely accused sometimes, but that seems to be astoundingly rare in comparison.

I guess what I'm asking is, do you think that panic was coming from a good place or a self interested place? Was my lack of red flag that should have stopped me saying yes regardless of the consequences, based on something intrinsically broken in myself, or was my thought process acceptable and I simply came to the wrong conclusion at the end of it? Sort of like getting the working out right but still having the wrong answer in a maths test.

I think the whole situation is just a mess, honestly. There's no way to refuse without it being weird. To not refuse is a violation of your boundaries and hurtful to your wife. It's one of those consequences of infidelity that isn't ever going to be easy. I can't think of a non-weird way out that doesn't involve a lie, which is another thing to avoid. Like "I would give you a ride, but my nephew was just in the car last night and I think he's sick because he sneezed all over it" or something crazy like that. Anything honest you'd say would make it very weird for that woman, make you look creepy, or make your wife sound jealous and controlling. There's no good answer. I've given men rides and been given rides by men to work lunches or functions and it hasn't been weird, but I haven't been in R with someone after cheating so it isn't easy to say how I'd have handled this. I was never in anything like a real R. My XWH was a serial cheater, so I just assumed if he were around anyone who would sleep with him in any circumstance, he'd have gone for it. Trust was never going to be rebuilt in my situation and I was too appalled by who he was to give a damn about how I conducted myself after my RA.

As a BW whose H cheated with a co-worker and has similar boundaries with H now, here is my take...

Work is not just 9-5 in the office work in most companies. Coworkers become friends BECAUSE the personal stuff gets mixed in. There are happy hours, business trips, dinners, conferences, etc - and they are part in parcel these days of building "culture" and "team". I had zero problems with all of the above pre DDay because I thought my H had BOUNDARIES (not to mention integrity, respect and a whole host of other character traits).

Now that he has proven he has a shaky history with boundaries, we've made provisions to keep ME comfortable. I retain the right to change and adapt as he shows me he HAS boundaries, but for now, he doesn't have solo car trips/rides, text threads, or meals with females.

Any meeting IN OFFICE meeting would obviously be ok. But let's be honest. A meeting in an office is business, purposeful. A "lunch" with someone you are comfortable with would be less so - it's just the nature of the beast. A car ride, same story. You don't keep to business. It allows for a slippery slope - and it's exactly how my H's affair started. Took two years to go from friendly banter in office, to texts, to suggestive emails, to hugs, to her kissing him on a work trip, but it happened (and obviously boundaries are more easy to ignore with alcohol and out of town spouses).

Now I'm not saying that all relationships would be this way, bc boundaried people wouldn't have an A, but I think we ALL have a little wayward in us. It feels good when someone compliments you, flirts with you, or validates you. Given the right situation, and lowered or shitty boundaries and POOF - bad things can happen. Especially when the situations are with the same person over and over again.

Anyways, this is my long winded way of saying that your reaction is normal. The panic at what to say in that situation. Your wife's reaction is also normal IMO. As BSes we wonder how our WS will react in certain situations to honor us, and hope that they'll choose us. When they don't, it's upsetting. Each data point from here on out will either build trust or take it two steps back.

We've actually had this happen since DDay. A few months after DDay 1, WH was stuck giving a female co-worker a ride to the airport. His boss asked him to do it because he was the one with the rental car. He panicked but didn't know how to say no. So what he did was text me right then and told me what was happening. Obviously I said that's fine. Him being proactive and thinking about me and boundaries is what I need. Extenuating circumstances happen! The moment he got through security, he called me and we talked until he boarded. (He also said he kept any personal convo to a minimum and steered things back to work every time she veered off.)

I think it helps to practice these situations too. Have an answer ready. I agree with Dee that lying is not a good alternative, but you could always say that you have some calls to make and could she ride with someone else? Not a lie if you call your wife?

I also think communicating BEFORE things happen is the best defense. I literally had no angst about my WH's giving his co-worker a ride that day. Now, had I found out he did it later? Or if he hid it? THAT is wayward behavior. (In fact he DID do this with a meeting later after DDay 2 - a superior asked him to meet for coffee/business in the lobby of a hotel and he didn't tell me. I knew the meeting happened but she had switched locations and he didn't divulge that info, which is basically lying by omission in my book. He KNEW that I wouldn't like it and didn't want to admit that he'd broken a boundary on the first international trip since DDay 2. (Even though again, I would have understood extenuating circumstance - THAT one set back my trust level.).

I think it's great that you are aware and still working after 7.5 years. That is a great sign for your commitment to being a better husband and partner.

[This message edited by TX1995 at 10:45 AM, July 8th (Thursday)]

You had maybe three seconds to compose a firm refusal to what most people would consider an innocuous request. You don't sound too comfortable to me, but you do sound unprepared. If you have significant restrictions on your interactions with half the world's population, you need to practice how to deflect various casual situations. Otherwise, your panic instinct is likely to kick in and default you to the easiest answer instead of the smartest one.

What does your wife think about this fear of outing her? Does she believe that's what caused your hesitation, or does she think that was just an excuse?

I mean it's practically the most common affair on SI. We'd be whistling past the graveyard to pretend otherwise.

Straw man argument. No one here claimed that workplace affairs don't happen.

Sorry it doesn't work that way, BSR. I was just making an observation, not trying to cast someone else’s position.

Interesting conversation. Lack of preparation was the key here imo, but you should have called your spouse before the ride commenced not later. It is the lack of transparency that is the damaging factor here.

Billy Graham also would not enter a hotel room first. He would always have one of his companions go in and ensure the room was empty before entering. He feared that he could be set up for a salacious photograph, so it was more about protecting the name of Christ by not giving the Lord's enemies a reason to blaspheme, than it was a fear of women or his supposed lack of self control.

There is another saying that looks at these situations a little differently, "If you take care of the way things look, you've taken care of the way things are." If we look at this from a perspective of someone who works with minors instead of potential affair partners, these boundaries can be viewed more clearly, perhaps? When working with minors, I have to undergo background check every year. I cannot be alone with a minor, even giving a ride home without active phone communication with a parent or third party during the ride. All rooms must have windows in the doors or the door must be left open. I must read, sign and agree to written procedures governing all interactions with minors, including no one on one texting. Oppressive? No, just overly cautious.

There are lots of ways to be professional and careful without being ridiculous. For instance, business offices have windows or should have. Transparency with your partner before the activity in question should always happen, not after. Each person or relationship should identify for them what those activities are, in advance.

But cheaters will cheat regardless of precautions. Predators like to hide in plain sight. I have personally known 4 pedophiles during my life, 1 at work, 3 in the church (church in general, not the same one). Those 3 went to jail, the coworker killed himself before he could be charged - his victims were his grandchildren - plain sight, after all. In my 20s I had a very close friend in his 30s, my pastor's son, our choir director, our wives too, were great friends and went to women's retreats together and we would stay at his place and watch our kids together for the weekend and we even slept in their King bed. We hiked and camped together. It took about 3 years for me to finally wake up and realize (it became obvious, btw) that he was a closeted homosexual who was very, very carefully grooming me. So it is not just the male/female dynamic in play, albeit it is the more common dynamic.

W2BHA - yes, I've worked alone with men (married, single, attractive, not so much... etc) MANY MANY MANY times. Sometimes til the wee hours of the morning. I'm an office worker - always have been, and always will be. I've been sexually harassed in just about every office I've ever worked in (including being -literally - spanked by my boss in front of a client). Today I probably had a man alone in my office at least 2x, with the door closed. Happens every damn day. And, I've never broken my vows... or filed a sexual harassment lawsuit, for that matter.

As to the Graham Rule, it's misogynistic bc it ONLY applies to one gender. IOW, if Pastor Graham refused to be alone with ANYONE other than his spouse, then I don't think I'd have much issue with it. But, as a professional woman, I would NEVER have had the ability to say no to being alone with a man, w/o losing my job or seriously sacrificing any opportunity for advancement (mostly bc in 90% of the jobs I've held, my boss was a MAN).

So what he did was text me right then and told me what was happening. Obviously I said that's fine. Him being proactive and thinking about me and boundaries is what I need. Extenuating circumstances happen!

Amen! That's kind of my take - or was in the aftermath of Dday... IOW, our "deal" was that WH wouldn't do things alone with another woman w/o letting me know beforehand. I don't think I ever said "no, I'm not OK with that" I guess bc as a BW AND as a woman working in a man's world, I wanted my WH to have an awareness and build communication, etc., but I was not willing to jeopardize another woman's career bc of my WH's poor choices or my need for safety w/in my M. It's not some female office underling's fault that MY trust and safety were destroyed by my WH's inability to keep it zipped!

I'd characterize that boundary as pretty permeable in that it was not a "never be alone with a woman", but fill me in, become AWARE of the slippery slope, etc. I cannot put the man in jail and expect him to learn to make good choices, which is really the point, isn't it?

If someone wants to have an A with a co-worker, they will have an A with a co-worker. The flirting and sharing of personal information usually starts in GROUP settings (or even the "team building" exercises when co-workers are expected to "share" personal stuff). IOW, if I go with the office gang to lunch and sit next "Bob", to whom I am attracted, I can absolutely begin to make those emotionally intimate connections, the private jokes, etc. despite not being "alone" . If the boundaries are "don't be alone" then I've not - technically - broken that boundary. But on an emotional level, I have absolutely begun the path down the slippery slope. I don't have to EVER be alone with "Bob" to have an EA with him... I just need to be willing to open my "windows" (to use Glass' analogy) to him - even if we are standing at the water cooler in full view of 20 other co-workers.

And I think we all know how easy it is to go from EA to PA....

gmc94...this shows YOU are a woman of honor and integrity . It also shows that you were put in difficult situations that would not have happened if you were among other people who had honor and integrity. My H was NOT a man of honor and integrity...even though he portrayed himself to be. Although...he abhorred the cheaters he saw at work...both the men and women. He often said how they shouldn't shit where they ate. He had absolutely NO problem though with having sex with a stranger while overseas.

There was a WW on this site who posted how she succumbed to the words of her coworker and the way he made her feel. When their A was over...she saw him going after his next conquest...using the SAME words he used with her. It made her SICK to see how she fell for it. YOU haven't...and YOU say you won't...and I have no reason to doubt you. But office affairs are rampant when left unchecked.

My H has checked off that box . He has never been tempted to have an office A...but he knows that he is capable of having an A...and he is setting boundaries in that regard. I never told him to do this...in fact...I didn't even know about the Billy Graham Rule until he told me about the encounter with the woman in the elevator. He handled the situation well...and then told me about it...and we went on about our day...with me smiling both inside and out .

I respectfully disagree with you about the Billy Graham Rule being misogynistic. He wasn't prejudiced AGAINST women...he was honoring his vows. He was very respectful to EVERYONE...but there was no doubt who he was going to be respectful of the MOST. Women can follow that rule as well...and I realized I was doing just that...I just didn't know there was a name for it .

My H WANTS to be a man of God...who has honor and integrity. He has put that rule in place...not because I asked him to...but because HE wants to show me that I come FIRST. I LOVE it...and I am not ashamed for feeling that way . The women at his work have no idea he even implements that rule...and they are treated respectfully. I would also venture to guess that this makes them feel more comfortable as well because they are not being put in situations where you were.

I can't imagine the humiliation you felt when you were spanked...that is HORRIBLE to be treated that way (((HUGS))). That was very brazen of your boss...and it shows ME that this wasn't his first time doing something like this. People don't just start sexually harassing people. They get away with a little bit...then keep pushing the envelope until they put people into a situation where you found yourself in. I wonder how MANY women let him get away with this type of treatment before he got to you? What did you do to make sure he didn't carry on with this treatment to other women?

Amen! That's kind of my take - or was in the aftermath of Dday... IOW, our "deal" was that WH wouldn't do things alone with another woman w/o letting me know beforehand. I don't think I ever said "no, I'm not OK with that" I guess bc as a BW AND as a woman working in a man's world, I wanted my WH to have an awareness and build communication, etc., but I was not willing to jeopardize another woman's career bc of my WH's poor choices or my need for safety w/in my M. It's not some female office underling's fault that MY trust and safety were destroyed by my WH's inability to keep it zipped!

I'd characterize that boundary as pretty permeable in that it was not a "never be alone with a woman", but fill me in, become AWARE of the slippery slope, etc. I cannot put the man in jail and expect him to learn to make good choices, which is really the point, isn't it?

If someone wants to have an A with a co-worker, they will have an A with a co-worker. The flirting and sharing of personal information usually starts in GROUP settings (or even the "team building" exercises when co-workers are expected to "share" personal stuff). IOW, if I go with the office gang to lunch and sit next "Bob", to whom I am attracted, I can absolutely begin to make those emotionally intimate connections, the private jokes, etc. despite not being "alone" . If the boundaries are "don't be alone" then I've not - technically - broken that boundary. But on an emotional level, I have absolutely begun the path down the slippery slope. I don't have to EVER be alone with "Bob" to have an EA with him... I just need to be willing to open my "windows" (to use Glass' analogy) to him - even if we are standing at the water cooler in full view of 20 other co-workers.

That right there. All that. Rules aren't what keeps cheating from occurring. Character is what stops it. Rules just keep you in the role of marriage police. They're a false comfort.

For this whole Billy Graham rule...let's say for him it was something not misogynistic (which I still disagree with). But let's say it is. I grew up in a culture that held this man in highest regard. The adoption of his philosophies by many men I've known in my life IS 100% based on this whole "men can't be expected to control themselves without rules" and "women are temptresses just waiting to make you slip up". Maybe you have to have been female growing up in that environment to see the damage it does. It sexualizes you young to be learning these things when the intent is to have you abhor sexual thoughts. This rule in the workplace is similar. If I know that Bob isn't able to meet with me one -on-one about the budget because of this rule, I'm going to think "Oh ew, I had no idea Bob wanted to fuck me". Suddenly things are sexual and creepy. This rule brings sex into non-sexual situations.

DevastatedDee...that is YOUR definition of the Billy Graham Rule...and you are certainly entitled to think that...given your upbringing. My H's definition of it is different...and falls in line with how Mr. Graham put his wife FIRST. The men in the group my H was in were thinking of it THIS way...and my H thought it was a great idea. I CONCUR .

Rules aren't what keeps cheating from occurring. Character is what stops it. Rules just keep you in the role of marriage police. They're a false comfort.

Totally agree with this except that I was NOT going to be in the role of marriage police. Like I said before...I didn't even know about the Billy Graham Rule until my H brought it up.

My H WANTS to be a man of God...and knows he has to change the mindset HE grew up with in order to do that. He has the Billy Graham Rule as a guide to what will help BOTH of us. I am very HAPPY he saw this as something that will HONOR ME...and I have absolutely NO qualms about it .

I guess it's a good thing he's not a therapist. I get that it works for you. I just haven't seen it implemented in a way that doesn't feel creepy to me as a woman.

It makes me sad that we have to use constant qualifiers with some waywards because of their shitty boundaries.

It should be sufficient to state, “Don’t fuck or be inappropriate with anyone else.”

Instead it becomes, “Here is my definition of flirting. Here is what inappropriate looks like. Here is what a normal business friendship looks like.” Definition and nit picking because there have shitty boundaries and poor insight.

Smh.

[This message edited by 3yrsout at 1:58 PM, July 9th (Friday)]

I just haven't seen it implemented in a way that doesn't feel creepy to me as a woman.

You must not have a male doctor or dentist . They never come into the room without a nurse...and I have NO issue with that at all . In fact...I find it comforting to know that they show this respect...even though it just may be for them to avoid a sexual harassment or assault accusation.

Even the last lawyer I went to had someone in the room when we were talking. Although...that was back when a lawyer made national news when he was found to be making women strip while he videoed them. These poor souls were going to him for a divorce...and he USED their vulnerability in order to satisfy his disgusting desires. There are truly some SICK and EVIL people in this world.

What YOU find creepy...I find respectful...and I am OK with that . This world would be pretty boring if we were ALL the same !

BTW...theseseatsRtaken asked you a question in his last post further up on this page. I am afraid my statement about the Billy Graham Rule has threadjacked his post...sorry Seats!!!

Dee, can I please ask - you say you would assume he cheated or had some weird views on women. Would it enter your mind at all that he may have been propositioned or falsely accused when in that situation before?

I'm curious about this idea of what people would assume based on observing someone saying no to a car ride. In this case, it was about 20 people and it was part of what caused my panic. I was concerned about the assumptions people would draw and that as someone else said - it would sexualise a non-sexual situation through people's assumptions. And in so doing, potentially out my wife as a betrayed spouse which is something she has chosen never to do except with members of my immediate family to whom we agreed I would out myself in the early days of R.

Ironically, in my case I DID cheat so they would be right. My instinct in that moment wasn't about protecting me though. I'm very successful at work and have nothing to prove except to myself. It was about keeping my wife's confidence.

I guess what I'm asking is, do you think that panic was coming from a good place or a self interested place? Was my lack of red flag that should have stopped me saying yes regardless of the consequences, based on something intrinsically broken in myself, or was my thought process acceptable and I simply came to the wrong conclusion at the end of it? Sort of like getting the working out right but still having the wrong answer in a maths test.

My view so far is there is a deeper brokenness that needs exploring. I'll be re-entering IC as this has just added to an already established issue of work/life balance that is costing me a healthy relationship with my family. This was last straw though for sure.

Everyone's insights are so valuable. Thank you!

Theseseats, there's a very small circle of people whose opinion I value on topics like this. I truly don't give a shit if someone at work is offended or not if I don't want to give them a ride. You are allowed to have boundaries and you damn sure don't need to justify them to coworkers. No is an acceptable answer. There really is no need to explain it any further. Let people think whatever they want. Conduct yourself according otherwise and I guarantee there won't be any issues. I also think we worry far more what people think about us without realizing that most folks don't give two shits about us and they give us very little thought at all. If my boundaries make them uncomfortable, that is not my problem.

To your second question, it seems to me that you care too much about pleasing other people and you want them to "like" you. You were willing to break your agreement with your wife to further this end. You worried what your coworkers would think of you. You didn't act with integrity because you didn't do what you told your wife you would do.

I'm in the camp where I would prefer to be respected versus liked. Most people like fools and clowns; however, respect is something that can be commanded by consistently acting with integrity. I've found that most people will come to admire and respect you of their own volition if I conduct myself with honor and integrity.

Kudos to you for being self aware enough to recognize the issue.

You must not have a male doctor or dentist . They never come into the room without a nurse...and I have NO issue with that at all . In fact...I find it comforting to know that they show this respect...even though it just may be for them to avoid a sexual harassment or assault accusation.

My doctor and dentist are both female but the doctor before this one was a lesbian and it didn't feel weird to have her examine me, so...I don't know what followers of the rule would make of that. Women may be exempt, I guess. I did have a male therapist for a time and it was just he and I in the room. I get that male doctors have done creepy things and male dentists have done creepy things and gotten busted and insurance companies now require this, but it sounds like that particular application of the rule tells men that they can't be trusted with a woman in a vulnerable situation. Some male doctors have been predators and now I suppose all male doctors must be treated as such.

I've had male internists my entire life. NEVER - and I mean NEVER - have they had a nurse (or anyone else) with them during my exam (and that includes a pelvic). The nurse takes my blood pressure, etc and then leaves LONG before the dr ever enters the exam room.

I've had male OB/GYNs as well (tho all women for the last 25+years) ... same thing.

And all of my dentists have been male - NEVER had anyone with them unless needed (eg -hand me the whatchamacalit it, or suction, etc).

Not only do I find requiring a third party to be present during an exam to not be respectful, I find it wholly DISrespectful.... just as any male co-worker or supervisor saying he could not be alone with me.

TBH, if any doc/IC/etc required another party in the room because my possession of a vagina is somehow problematic, I would find someone else. If some insurance company required it, then that dr has ALREADY done something sketchy. I see inability to be alone with a woman as a THEM problem and not a ME problem.... same as refusal to give a female colleague a ride.

Again, it's not the woman colleague's fault the OP had an A. If the OP refused rides to ANYONE, then so be it. The bottom line is refusing to things with a colleague or underling SOLELY bc of their gender is straight up DISCRIMINATION. If OP was her supervisor, OP could have a lawsuit on his hands (think about it - if the person were older, or of a certain ethnicity, religion, or race - would that somehow be OK? Gender is in the same category).

IMHO, this is an opportunity for OP and his BW to grow and communicate. If the BS still cannot tolerate OP being alone with a woman, it seems to me there are some larger trust / candor issues that need to be addressed. Discriminating against unwitting third parties, solely due to their gender, doesn't strike me as a healthy path, at least not in the long run.

Seems like I hit a nerve...especially when people on here won't answer questions posed specifically TO them...but instead decide to push their agenda. I respect MY male doctor and dentist...and THEY respect ME. To be so judgemental about these wonderful people I KNOW...well...it is NOT respectful at all. To not be banned from this Forum...I will leave it at that .

theseseatsRtaken ...as a BW who is very HAPPILY in R with my H...my advice to you is to put your lovely wife FIRST. Whatever SHE feels will help her have PEACE...DO IT . NO other woman MATTERS compared to your wife. What anyone else THINKS doesn't MATTER either. NO is a complete sentence .

There has been some great advice on here...and I am sure this setback will only propel y'all further into learning what will make you BOTH feel good about your decisions moving forward. IC is a great start !!

Since this is getting to be too much of a threadjack I will respectfully back away. I have no agenda except to HELP people on this site with what has worked for ME. Like I have often said before...take what you need and leave the rest .

Now it is time to go and watch "The Chosen" with the LOVE of my life . YES...I am talking about my H !!! Tomorrow is the Finale for Season 2...so we are binge watching some of the other episodes tonight...TOGETHER. That is our favorite place to be !!! MORE sage advice from a BW who is HAPPILY in R with my H .

If the men I worked with in ALL my careers followed that rule I would not have been able to work. I have in 98 percent of all my career interactions been the only woman, travelled with men, went on calls with men, etc so on. And have been the boss in those circumstances.

I get the intent but there is something that rubs me the wrong way, and if a man said he wouldn’t give me a ride because he was afraid to be #metooed that would be incredibly insulting.

OP. I understand you feel like you have failed and that your BS is upset but the extent of your distress is an indicator that your mindset has changed. You have indicated in your post that your BS is perhaps the one who wants this kept a secret. Perhaps a frank discussion with her on exactly how to handle the situation in the future without going against her wishes would be productive. It is unrealistic to assume this will never happen again.