SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Don’t get me wrong. If I met the AP begging for water in the desert I wouldn’t even bother spitting in his direction, but I would definitely not be in said desert looking for him.

This exactly. I've said many times tongue in cheek that if every OW who had interfered in my marriage simultaneously burst into flames I wouldn't lose a minute's sleep over it, but by the same token, I'm not losing sleep if they don't. The goal is indifference, so that people who don't matter in your life aren't living rent free in you brain space.

SI DOES NOT CONDONE VIOLENCE IN ANY WAY.

As of 2016, there were 39 states in which encouraging a person to commit suicide is a crime, and SI doesn't condone encouraging another member to commit a crime, either, even a non-violent crime. Doing so is an ethical violation where it isn't a criminal one.

I framed my first response to you solely in regards to your current decision, whether/how to respond to AP's apology letter. But I do think the comments you've received pointing to the bigger picture are important to consider as well.

You are hurting a lot. That's what is underneath all of this. You wanted to show AP how much you are hurting by causing him pain as well. As far as endeavors go, you did come out pretty well in that regard, at least so far. His wife (I don't think we can call her BW because he was a single OM at the time of the affair, right?) reached out to you respectfully. He reached out to you with as good of an apology as he could write. They both showed some compassion and understanding in their response to you when they could have said, look it's been 17 years, we're divorcing, no one forced you to reconcile with your WW, we're going to take legal action . . . You did open yourself up to a variety of adverse outcomes and are lucky that so far this seems to be going OK.

There is no shame in continuing to hurt, but publicly embarrassing the OM is a choice you need to own. You could impact his professional life and income, you could hurt his relationship with his kids . . . And what it sounds like you really wanted was just to be heard and to receive an apology. Do you see a disconnect between what you wanted (closure, attention, apology) and how you went about getting it?

Really, it's OK just to say, "I'm hurt and I'd like an apology." If you had done this and received one, it would have been less suspect than one obtained in the hopes that you would take down your website. I'm pointing this out to encourage you to skip the complicated misdirections in the future and simply look at whatever primal emotion is underneath it. And often the answer is that there is no salve for feeling vulnerable. The key is to accept that loving other humans who can harm us leaves us vulnerable. We trust in our ability to recover from the hurts we encounter along the way.

It's OK that you aren't indifferent to the OM. That's not a straightforward place for me either. But I still need to engage with others according to my values, including the OW. If you are feeling such angst that spending however much time and money it took to make that website was worth it, then I would get myself into therapy for that angst. This isn't a DIY situation. There are tools that therapists have such as EMDR to help us deal with deep wounds.

As for next steps, I would take down the website. I did have the last word in my brief exchange with OW, and I'm glad she had the instinct to give that to me. But we can't control how others respond (though I think that's what this website may have been for you . . . an attempt to control) and given how much the OM likes to hear himself talk, you may find he responds no matter what you say. So given his verbosity I'd probably just take down the website and call it a day. You have your proof that his life hasn't been grand and you can put that to rest.

Remember that closure doesn't come from enough grand gestures from your WW or apologies from OM. That's not to say that they are worthless . . . we are all connected to one another and knowing that someone regrets the harm they caused helps us. But ultimately you will never get enough of them to feel better. Feeling better comes from doing the emotional work to heal.

Thanks for all the replies. Im seeing some misunderstandings that I should clarify.

* The site was taken down as soon as I received his apology. I should have clarified this in my original post.

* He was not married to his current wife at the time he had the affair with my wife, so there is no OBS.

* None of what I've done here falls afoul of criminal or civil law. You cant be sued for saying or publishing things that are factually true or are opinions, and everything on the site was carefully written considering this. Even then, he would have had to prove that the site actually resulted in some kind of financial damages to win in civil court. Publishing a website is also not stalking or harassment as no unwanted contact was ever made and the site contained no threats. As far as him going psycho, I know him to be a coward. He is not a hard man whatsoever and I will not live in fear nor cower to him. If he wants to come for me and get himself killed or imprisoned for a long time, so be it.

Obviously I'm not healed, and I never said I was, but you know what? I'm doing things about it. I do feel that APs apology took the edge off of my toxic feelings towards him and I feel I may now be able to let his part in all of this fade away into the past, so in that sense I consider it a win. To those that think it was a bad idea to begin with, thats your opinion and you're entitled to it. But I think someone had mentioned that this is why victims have a chance to address their offender in court. It facilitates healing. It obviously doesn't fix what happened and I'd of course love to get to that magical place, but you cant just will yourself healed or not to care about something. Or at least not me anyway. Those urging me to seek counseling - I've seen four different ICs over the last 17 years and my WW and I have seen 3 different MCs. While I wouldn't say it's all been a waste, things still don't feel fully resolved for me.

As far as anyone suggesting that my WW may have been the dominant player in this, I know her character quite well at this point and she was not the dominant player. The AP did in fact manipulate and groom her and I can cite several specific examples of exactly how he did so but this is besides the point of this post.

I’ll be honest, I don’t know what you are looking for. I do not think there is in any way possible for the AP in my case to ever apologise for the destruction she caused by her mere existence in my marriage.

We can analyse the type of apology the OM sent you forever, the truth is, and please dig deep to honestly answer this question, is there anything he could ever say or do in way of apology to make you believe it is genuine and you’ve got closure?

17 years is a very long time to live holding a grudge against any human being. Don’t get me wrong, I’m no saint and I can’t say I am here praying for good things to happen to the ow, but I also don’t spend my time focusing on how I want her to burn in hell.

I am also saddened to read that a parent asked you to take the website down to protect their kids and you decided your personal interests are above those kids. You see, we pronounce ourselves outraged by the lack of consideration to OUR kids when these affairs happen and yet your case is proof that you wouldn’t care about other kids out there either.

I had several opportunities to confront and embarrass OW in front of her kids, I even considered doing it in a way that only she’d understand what I’m referring to. And yet I do believe I’m the better person and whilst she did not give a damn about my kids, I demonstrably did protect hers (including promising her once I will not out her to HR so she can keep her job to keep feeding her kids). I’m not a saint. But I do believe values cannot be bent to suit us (otherwise we’re no better than our cheating spouses).

ETA: we must have posted at the same time. I’m glad to hear the website was taken down.

[This message edited by Luna10 at 5:34 PM, Tuesday, November 1st]

I'm glad to hear it was already taken down and that you received an apology and are feeling lighter.

I think it's important for us to point out the pitfalls because a lot of people read here and might create their own revenge website without thinking through the potential consequences.

Just because we are BS doesn't mean we are perfect people. I've always imagined this as being one of the huge reasons not to have an affair . . . you just never know how someone will react to you threatening the continuation of their family unit. But from our end, it's important we don't encourage BS to do things that have a chance of causing them more drama and harm.

I'm glad that yours has been a positive experience and I hope the volume stays turned down on your feelings for OM. I'm not surprised that his life turned out to be a disappointment . . . someone with his qualities is going to have a lot of things blow up in his face unless he does some serious self-work, and it sounds like he hasn't. I do encourage all BS to know this deep down in their bones . . . someone who thought, "You know what would be a good idea that is probably going to turn out well for all involved? . . . an affair" is not somebody who makes good choices. And people who can't figure out how to make good choices create a lot of mess that they then have to live in. We don't have to see the evidence of the mess to know that it's surely happening.

First and foremost, I'm glad you took the website down after you got his apology, which was the right thing to do.

Second, you know your wife and your situation better than I do, so I'm not going to further argue the point about how proactive she was in the pursuit of her affair. But I will reiterate what others have said--particularly Bigger-- that your minimization of her culpability and your intense focus on the OM has been a huge impediment to your ability to move forward and heal.

Think of it this way: as long as you see your wife as a hapless victim then how do you rebuild your sense of trust and security in the marriage? The AP might be gone, but the person who betrayed you is still there... and what happens the next time another silver-tongued guy comes along?

How can you have any confidence in her ability to grow and change if you think she's devoid of agency in the first place? What incentive does she have to become a better, safer partner if she's not shouldering 100% of the burden of her choice to betray you?

Third, and lastly, now that you extracted your pound of flesh and your burning hatred has been somewhat salved, you have an opportunity to look inward at yourself and your marriage. What do you and your wife need to repair your marriage? Do you think you can ever be happy in your marriage or is it time for you to accept that it's broken and move on?

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 6:25 PM, Tuesday, November 1st]

your minimization of her culpability and your intense focus on the OM has been a huge impediment to your ability to move forward and heal.

I don't really feel that I've minimized her culpability or that Im treating her like a child without agency, although I can see how my intense focus on the AP here would lead one to believe that. I think there are varying degrees of proactivity and conscious thought that that one may engage in when entering into an affair and I believe there was relatively little of that compared to AP at least in terms of getting the ball rolling. You have to also realize that my wife had never been in any relationship other than with me when the affair happened, and AP was a pick-up artist, so I tend to believe her when she says she wasn't aware of the initial danger signs or how her brain was slowly becoming primed for an affair. She cluelessly engaged in flirting, gossiping, and sharing personal information, thinking it was harmless, and all of it felt completely innocent to her, until it wasn't.

What do you and your wife need to repair your marriage?

The main issue now in our recovery, at least what I feel anyway, is the tendency for my wife to become avoidant or defensive whenever I bring something thats bothering me about her affair up. Recovery to her means we don't talk about it - or to be more fair, that I don't feel the need to talk about it because Ive fully processed it and am at peace. When she hears about how her affair has affected me, and how difficult it's been for me, and how Im still not fully over it, it makes her feel so uncomfortable and helpless that she many times turns to anger in order to regain a sense of control and avoid more uncomfortable feelings of guilt and shame.

it also must be said that she is just not great at being comforting - and thats just a by product from the way she was raised, in a tough love sort of family. "STFU and get over it" is the name of the game in their family, whereas my Mom is literally the opposite and is an LMFT. When I point this out to her and tell her what I *wished* she'd have said to me, she gets frustrated and hopeless at her inability to say the right things to me and out comes the anger again. But this is also tempered by a very forgiving, loving and optimistic personality. She has a way of backing off from her and coming back into an "us" mindset, and fortunately I am not bad at making repairs when needed.

What usually happens next is we make up and get back to this normal state in which we aren't arguing, but if I get hung up on some internal thought again, she will pick up on that and probe at me until I tell her whats on my mind. its crazy really how she can just tell. Then when she feels inevitably upset, the anger and frustration will come out again, and it's like she ends up being the victim and telling me that I'm emotionally abusing her. I wont say she is completely without merit there though. I have threatened to leave her several times, demanded she take unreasonable actions and issue "tests" as my therapist calls them, go through mood swings, and just unpleasant stuff that a person with PTSD will do.

One of our past therapists told her once to just let me be whenever she senses that I might be having an internal episode, but its like she cant not ask and I always am honest and tell her whats on my mind.

This is our current cycle.

Well, that just sounds exhausting to me. But you must be getting something out of it, otherwise, you'd opt for healing instead. Maybe the pertinent question is 'what's the payoff which keeps you in this cycle'?

I'll be frank with you, I'm not quite as sanguine in my estimation of the risks you posed to your family by deliberately escalating an almost two decade's old grievance, and in your shoes, I wouldn't find much solace in an apology that was clearly extorted. And I'm not saying that to be mean or to be disagreeable, because the one who suffers the most here is YOU. It can't be a comfortable position to be in when you're seething in impotent rage for seventeen years and brooding on ways to get even with the least amount of splash-back. No one would choose to live like that. I remember the first few years of the JFO stage when I was living with that rage and it's a really, really unhappy place to be.

So, that's one idea. Try delving in to what you gain by continuing to hold onto your grievances. Maybe that will shake something loose. I dunno. Worth a try at this point, I would think. 🤷

It’s been close to 2 decades since the affair ended. Either you need to come to terms with your wife’s limitations in terms of what she will or won’t do in terms of your healing, or you decide the marriage isn’t working and you get out of it.

I have threatened to leave her several times, demanded she take unreasonable actions and issue "tests" as my therapist calls them, go through mood swings, and just unpleasant stuff that a person with PTSD will do.

This needs to stop. You have damaged your credibility by making empty threats with which you have failed to follow through. It’s also cruel and manipulative to continually make demands you know your wife can’t meet and that serve no purpose in healing your relationship or fixing yourself.

If you have PTSD, then you need to manage that illness. You may need to accept the fact that you need to end the continued exposure to the source of your trauma, which is your wife. That might be best the course of action for both your sakes, in fact.

When I read your description of the pattern you two are stuck in, I couldn't pinpoint exactly what your wife is doing. Being avoidant and defensive . . . those are tones, or moods, perhaps. You didn't mention specific actions other than not saying the exact words you wanted to hear (so that was an inaction, not an action).

You do mention your own actions, though.

Then when she feels inevitably upset, the anger and frustration will come out again, and it's like she ends up being the victim and telling me that I'm emotionally abusing her. I wont say she is completely without merit there though. I have threatened to leave her several times, demanded she take unreasonable actions and issue "tests" as my therapist calls them, go through mood swings, and just unpleasant stuff that a person with PTSD will do.

I really can relate to the things that you feel. I remember this summer my husband and I were spending a night away and we saw this stupid sign in a shop that OW had hanging in her home and which she posted publicly to justify the affair. Hilariously, this quote is mis-attributed to Mark Twain. "Life is short, break the rules, forgive quickly, kiss slowly, love truly, laugh uncontrollably, and never regret anything that made you smile." Seeing this stupid quote triggered me and tanked my mood.

Here's the thing, though. It's one thing to be triggered, and that can involve wishing your spouse would respond in a certain way . . . move towards you, be reassuring, be curious about your feelings, etc. My husband had trouble switching from happy vacation mode to explaining how he could fall for someone dumb enough to think Mark Twain would say that drivel. But I was able to say, "Hey, I know. I just want you to listen and express curiosity about/empathy for how I feel. That's all." And then I was able to move on. Where you are spiraling is that you haven't figured out how to self-soothe. And that's a tricky thing when you are in a relationship with the person who caused your trauma, but you have to understand that your partner can't heal you. That famous book is called "How to HELP Heal Your Spouse" because that's all a wayward can do . . . help the betrayed heal themselves.

And that's why no email to MM's mother or interaction with his soon-to-be-ex-wife who didn't even know him when the affair happened or website or apology will heal you. Gestures can be an important part of the, let's say, courting process in the early days when the wayward really needs to prove their intentions. But the goal is to recommit to the marriage, a marriage of equals. You can't be in a perpetual cycle of tests and hoops. That's not a marriage, that's purgatory.

So what are you getting out of it? Reassurance that you are wanted? Attention? An excuse to maintain an imbalance in your marriage? You say, "it's like she ends up being the victim and telling me that I'm emotionally abusing her." I think you need to take that "like" out. It's possible and fairly common (since we are imperfect beings hurting immensely) for a betrayed spouse to react in an emotionally abusive way. I yelled, "You SUCK at 'forsaking all others' and 'in sickness and in health'!" in an airport once. It's not ideal to act in ways that are beneath us but I think we all understand that a little lashing out is just going to be part of it in the early days. But you are very, very stuck in this place. Being cheated on is not carte blanche to be a bad partner. If your spouse is pushing back against emotional abuse and a therapist is backing her up, then you need to take serious stock.

…we saw this stupid sign in a shop that OW had hanging in her home and which she posted publicly to justify the affair. Hilariously, this quote is mis-attributed to Mark Twain. "Life is short, break the rules, forgive quickly, kiss slowly, love truly, laugh uncontrollably, and never regret anything that made you smile."

I wonder if all OWs out there have some sort of online forum where they learn which quotes they can use to justify their shitty behaviour because they all seem to recycle the same misinterpreted ones, this one that you mentioned and the "love, live, laugh" are my two triggers too.

Where you are spiraling is that you haven't figured out how to self-soothe. And that's a tricky thing when you are in a relationship with the person who caused your trauma, but you have to understand that your partner can't heal you.

Totally agree with this. One of the hardest things for me was to learn how to self soothe without causing another long conversation about a trigger I experienced. That’s not because I wanted to rug sweep the affair but because there came a point where I started wondering what I was trying to achieve by going over the same ground again. If the conversation brings nothing new then perhaps a simple "I’m a bit triggered and I need a cuddle and some reassurance that we are in a different place" would give a positive outcome.

For me 9 times out of 10 I would go into assessment mode, I look at where we are now, I remind myself of the man he is today, and that seems to work to manage a trigger.

I also think there’s a primal instinct in BSes to keep the affair and the trauma inflicted by it alive long term as a preventative measure. If we keep it alive and constantly bring the trauma in focus, then the WS would be reminded how devastating it is and not do it again. They’ll also feel the imbalance in all other aspects of the marriage.

But if we really act on this instinct what does that mean for us? What kind of life does it bring us? One of constant pain, constant reminders, vigilance, unhappiness, being dissatisfied with our spouse and the list can go on. Do we really want to live like that?

I don’t know about you but I knew I couldn’t live that way pretty soon post dday. I gave myself a deadline by which point I would choose to divorce if I didn’t feel healed and happy in my marriage.

Marriage dynamics do change post affairs in many ways. I’m not saying an affair should be buried and forgotten, this forum and close friends know very well that my husband and I did not do that, in fact we still mention it at points in a variety of different contexts, it’s part of our history now, but new dynamics can be positive showing a huge amount of growth for both partners and the marriage.

There is this old adage about revenge being a double-edged sword.

In this instance the reply was an excuse. We can dispute how sincere and what made the OM send it after all this time. Maybe from the heart, maybe an attempt to get this off the net.

But… Human nature or instinct or whatever it is you want to call it is to flee threats OR defend against them – very often by going on the attack. We see this all the time and chances are we behave this way too. Like if our spouse grumbles about something that might even be justified, we get defensive, explain how we too do all sorts of stuff and maybe move the argument on to another subject – rather than just pick up our empty cups and place them in the washer, the cause of the original grumbling.

I’m guessing the OM ignored the site hoping it would go away (flee the problem). I guess the apology was the first attempt to get rid of this pesky problem (defensive). Doesn’t seem to have given you the satisfaction expected.

But the OM could just as well have gone offensive – attacked the issue.
The offensive – the aggression – could have been legal action. I doubt it – the site could be carefully worded and not given direct info or only held truths that are provable. But often legal action of this variety is more based on the depth of the parties’ pockets rather than "correct". Had he been willing to spend 10k on this issue then the only defense might have been to spend 11k to make this go away.

Or the offensive – the aggression – could have been more personal. Like instead of an apology what if you got a letter sharing how your wife participated in the affair, how she compared you to him negatively, explicit descriptions of how she behaved having sex with him, how he was only one of many lovers, what acts she participated in, how she idolized his body, how she was the initiator and how she tried to keep it going for years…
What if that aggression hadn’t been as private as an e-mail, but posted on the site? Or a counter-site that whoever found your site would inevitably find and read too. Now your wife – the person you are trying to reconcile – is being displayed to his family and your family.

This has the potential of setting back whatever gains have been made in reconciliation. Seeds of doubts are cast. Even if every single statement is false. Your wife is on the defensive, is hurt, your level of trust has been ripped again, the fear of trickle-truth, lies, pain… For the OM it was only half an hour spent sending the reply, or maybe a day or two getting someone to set up the site and do the work to connect them or whatever. He’s already lost his wife of the time, his kids are grown… for him this is just plain old masculine payback. You spilt my beer? Here is a knuckle-sandwich sort of mentality.

Revenge is a double-edged sword.
There is very little come-back from the message "you are so irrelevant that I don’t even bother about you". The AP has really so little invested in YOUR marriage that they have little to gain by being truly remorseful or constructive in any way for YOU and YOUR marriage or YOUR personal recovery. There is little chance that there is anything to gain from them.

Yes, Luna, I totally agree with what you say here:

I also think there’s a primal instinct in BSes to keep the affair and the trauma inflicted by it alive long term as a preventative measure. If we keep it alive and constantly bring the trauma in focus, then the WS would be reminded how devastating it is and not do it again. They’ll also feel the imbalance in all other aspects of the marriage.

I try to ask myself "What do I lose if I let go of this?" when I'm struggling. The answer might be . . . the right to special treatment, the right to demand reassurance or altered behavior whenever I want (i.e. control). It's a misguided attempt to protect myself from future hurt when the truth is that we can't, and there's an opportunity cost to trying to do so.

gainingclosure, I've always taken comfort from this stanza of Anne Sexton's "Courage."

Later,
if you have endured a great despair,
then you did it alone,
getting a transfusion from the fire,
picking the scabs off your heart,
then wringing it out like a sock.
Next, my kinsman, you powdered your sorrow,
you gave it a back rub
and then you covered it with a blanket
and after it had slept a while
it woke to the wings of the roses
and was transformed.

I like the imagery of treating your sorrow like a cherished child whom you pamper and allow time to recuperate. It reminds me that I must be an active participant in transforming my sorrow.

Specifically, I built and ranked a website to the #1 spot in Google for his name. On the site, it outlined all of the sleazy things he had done and generally just what I thought of him and his actions. This was therapeutic and allowed me to feel heard, but also it was done because he never had any meaningful consequences happen to him, or so it would seem from the outside. I wanted to expose him to his wife, kids, family, potential future employers or lovers.

Gotta say, I lived vicariously through your post for a few tics. I used to dream of ways to rain down hell on my wifes POS, but it turned out that life rained hell down on him without any help from me.

As to his "apology email/letter", what a load of bullhockey. Good lord, what is he, three? Id toss that in the digital round file as soon as I skimmmed it. Pathetic, but its probably as good as it gets with him, shallow end of the gene pool and all that.....

Moving forward, seeing as you've outted him to all parties important to him, maybe stop making the site top of page and letting it slide. Keep it as a static site until the flames of retribution die down in the fire circle of your soul. Again, I understand the primal need to exact a pound of flesh for every wound but at some point you'll have to ask, when is enough, enough? Only you know. I would encourage giving strong consideration for the OBS and for her children.

Be well sir.

ETA: Just read your story. This douche certainly put the "low" in lowlife. I do now certainly understand the digital brass knuckles approach to him, my prior remarks notwithstanding.

On another note, how is your M now?

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 5:44 PM, Wednesday, November 2nd]

gainingclosure, kudos to you for taking ACTION. You did something to help yourself deal with being wronged.

Also, keep in mind there is a certain segment of posters here who make it their mission to criticize BS’s who take ACTION. They talk about getting out of infidelity, until a BS takes proactive actions to help themselves.

Personally, the only opinion that counts is the guy in the mirror. If your comfortable looking in the mirror, it’s all good.

Google … "The Guy in the Glass" … I think it’ll ring true with you.

Also, keep in mind there is a certain segment of posters here who make it their mission to criticize BS’s who take ACTION. They talk about getting out of infidelity, until a BS takes proactive actions to help themselves.

How to interact, or not, with a former AP and their relations is often a hot topic here. But gainingclosure's posts admit to being emotionally abusive toward his wife, and it's important to address that. It's also relevant to look at exactly how the OP has considered interacting with the AP . . . by having his wife write AP's mother 17 years later to tell her she meant nothing, by involving AP's wife who wasn't in the picture during the affair, by exhorting an apology rather than just asking for one, etc. This is important context beyond "rah rah, you did something and I bet it feels good!"

I also find your generalization about critics really odd because the people you claim are criticizing BS who take action are all . . . BS who have successfully taken action and moved on one way or another, something the OP is clearly struggling to do. So it stands to reason that people sharing how they did that would be useful. Of course some tacks will resonate more than others.

Personally, I think the lack of communal schadenfreude in this case is a clue that OP should consider the lengths he has gone to. Generally revenge posts get a little more enthusiasm and congratulations, however emotionally immature that might be.

Also, keep in mind there is a certain segment of posters here who make it their mission to criticize BS’s who take ACTION. They talk about getting out of infidelity, until a BS takes proactive actions to help themselves.

Rather than some cryptic innuendo do you have the quotes or references to call those "certain" posters out? I would greatly want to see what posters are discouraging others from taking positive and constructive action to get out of infidelity. If you do then send the mods a PM so they can take action.

Walking into a wall and bumping your head is an action.
Standing back up and repeating the process is an action.
Doesn’t make it any wiser or more likely to produce any positive result.

The Japanese resorted to suicidal Banzai charges late in WW2. That was an action but was it smart or sensible?

Action in itself isn’t what people should be aiming for.

This post was placed in the RECONCILIATION form by the OP, therefore indicating his aim was to reconcile. Lot’s of us are pointing out that keeping a grudge and actively feeding it for all these years might not be constructive to reconciliation. We might even be considered encouraging the OP to take constructive ACTIONS towards his personal healing.

Seems like I struck a nerve … not surprising.

Anyway, my purpose was to support the OP and my message was that if he was content looking at himself in the mirror, then let the criticisms roll off his back.

Not so much nerve as concern.
If you - with not really many posts or time on this site - have found a number of other posters encouraging inaction then - as a semi-mod-slash-attache I wold be interested to know who they are. While we try to discourage stupidity and counter-productive actions then we definitely do not support inaction of the type you claim to witness here on this site.