SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

EVEN IF all he said was true, he still chose a PA.

And....he felt okay to insert himself into someone else's marriage. Even if he had some sort of 'consent' from you, where was the consent from the AP's spouse?

[This message edited by jb3199 at 9:21 PM, Saturday, December 2nd]

I think he's gaslit you.

You would have remembered telling him he could have sex with other women.

Just how did he know this woman was "in a similar situation with her BS?" Because he crossed lines,and was flirting with her,and supposedly this is what she told him??

If he thought he had your permission, why didn't he tell you? Why delete the texts?

You need to call her husband and tell him. She knows you know..you can trust that he has told her..so she will intercept any messages you send him. Call him.

It's obvious he's lying. If he thought it was ok,he wouldn't have hidden it.

Since he's saying he's remorseful..he's quitting this hobby,right?

[This message edited by HellFire at 10:07 PM, Saturday, December 2nd]

You have gotten good advice. I’m another one who went through a 2nd affair 15 years later. I too had my head in the sand for 2 years. I didn’t want to deal with it. After the first betrayal, I specifically said if this ever happens again, I will divorce you. So that is what I did after a 27 year marriage. I’m in a much better place.

I’m going to be direct- he is gaslighting you. He’s lying big time. It’s more than 1-2xa year. The fact that he stated you gave him permission to do this is infuriating! And you are contemplating it as if that would make it okay. It was done in secret and therefore he knows it’s wrong. He did this again after seeing all the devastation caused last time.

You have one precious life to live. What is your line in the sand?

For me, I believe in a first chance, but a second chance- hell no. It’s so disrespectful and traumatizing. He is showing you who he is- please believe him. There is so much more going on then he is alluding to.

Listen to your gut, get in IC. Do not believe anything he says.

Hi folks- just wanted to let you know I've reach every post here several times, as my frame of mind keeps changing so I get a bit more out of each of your posts each time I read it. It's as if I can only process the words I'm ready to process and ignore the rest until I come back ready to process another bite.

Since he is away for another week or so, I find I'm running segments of conversations around and wanting to yell at him! My poor dog doesn't know what to think of me. It may be time to start journaling my thoughts to organize what I want to say to him.

But here is where I am.

Although I haven't made any decision on D yet, I do love the guy. We have similar sense of humor, we enjoy a lot of the same things, are good travel-buddies, blah blah. Love just isn't enough, I think. I can't see myself staying with someone who has so little disregard about what hurts me. He knows how devastated I was first time- he held me while I cried. He knows what was said in MC about communication.

Yet, he takes a vague comment of "do what you have to do" 2 years ago (that may or may not have happened), and uses that as a basis to do something he knows will gut me AGAIN. If he needed a 'release' 2x a year, don't you think he should have reached out A YEAR after such a vague statement, to see if I was in the same space? To make triple sure an affair was a condoned solution? [I know you all saw this immediately-- it has taken me a while...]

The other thing that doesn't add up-- how he turned a platonic friendship from his hobby into a PA. He swears it wasn't an EA-- just a PA. Someone had to cross that line first. If it was him- fuck him. If it was her, he should have backed away like she was plutonium. Instead, he went for it and made sure that all the ways I found out last time weren't used again. And since I found out last time, why was he so sure I wouldn't find out this time?-- I can only think it was confidence because he did it before successfully (meaning, there must have been more As I don't know about.)

Last thoughts. First DDay, I reached out to a 2 very old friends for support. I deliberately did not tell my family or certain friends because I knew they would never forgive him and I wasn't sure what I was going to do. This time, I loathe the idea of telling my 2 old friends, because I can't justify the thought of taking him back again. If my friend shared with ME this story, I would be appalled if she took him back a second time. While I have no shame in the first E/PA and R, I have shame this time surrounding my reluctance to D on the spot. It's like my head knows the right answer, but my heart isn't there yet (and I feel it should be.) I truly try to live my life making decisions that I can proudly own. My reluctance to share with my closest people tells me taking him back is not living life authentically to my own values. I don't hang out with known criminals, I stand up for the little guy, I give to folks less fortunate, I try to be a good person. But living with a cheater, means I'm accepting this treatment and accepting of these actions.

As I type this out- it is clearer to me I need to schedule some IC.

I’m so sorry this is happening to you. This is honestly one of the reasons I am still on the fence about reconciling at two years from d day.
I have had the same dilemma about staying in the marriage, I feel some cognitive dissonance. I have a hard time thinking I can accept this behavior from someone that supposedly loves me. I try to live my life in integrity. What you see is who I am. Yet I’m married to someone that was deceitful for ten years. It’s so hard to make sense of that.
I would give yourself some grace and time to process what you want to do. If I had another d day in 10 years I would be 58 and will likely be retired at that point. I do think if I have a second d day I will absolutely be done. But I don’t think any of us know what we will do until it happens. And at 58 and not working will I want to go back to work and start over. I really don’t know. It’s Really shit choices that our spouses give us.

@Saltishealing- Exactly this. The cognitive dissonance is real.

I'm reading through the Divorce folder and found the pinned post: Fear vs Reality very calming. Much of my reluctance is due to fear. Thankfully, I'm working at a great job and we have saved well over the years, so 1/2 leaves me in decent shape.

I'm wondering how to find posts from anyone who has done 2 Rs. Is that even possible? What does it look like? I feel like I need to "try it on" in my head to see if it fits. Doesn't change the discomfort for feeling like a schmuck for even thinking of R.

Don’t be ashamed to consider R. When you are presented with a bunch of terrifying options you consider all the potential paths—if only to rule them out. Also, as you said the options may seem terrifying partially because they are unknown, maybe they wont be so bad. I just re-read Cheating in a Nutshell. If you remember it…it is fully in the camp of cheating can’t be forgiven. I wanted to see if my desire to R could stand up to their arguments. It was a sobering experience.

Someone close to me found out today that her husband had cheated again after a one time incident 10 years ago. She seems to be heading straight to D but we will see as the shock wears off.

It has made me think of what one other person who responded to your post said: something about your husband having known what you went through the first time. Could you share that? Were you stuck in bed for months or did you rally quickly. Did you cry yourself to sleep for years. Were there physical effects? What did you go though?

I would like to know what your husband was willing to put you through a second time. I feel I have nearly died from my husband’s second d-day (all from the first and only affair). I think I would be too embarrassed to write here of the depths of my misery. Perhaps you are more open. But that issue, the fact that my husband saw that utter and complete destruction of my soul, and chose to do a repeat, would make living with him even one more day after re-cheating excruciating.

For my friend who is going through this, all I want to do is hug her and hold her. You deserve every form of comfort right now. I think that was part of what drove me to keep my husband around. I needed a warm body to hold me while I unraveled. I wish I had been strong enough to find another way.

I wish you courage, strength and self-compassion. And virtual hugs! Please keep sharing.

SI is much less searchable than most other 'net forums in order to help members retain anonymity. My reco is to check out more pages of JFO and look for 'again' in titles. That's a far from perfect technique, though; it'll miss a lot, and it'll turn up a lot that won't answer your questions.

On a 2nd R: If you did much rug-sweeping 10 years ago, I would bet R is eminently doable if you do no rug-sweeping now. If he's talking about trips and not about his cheating, though, I suspect he rug-swept a lot and will continue to want to rug-sweep. That's a recipe for a lousy R.

What did he do besides MC 10 years ago? Here's the thing: MC treats the M, but the M didn't cheat - he did. What did he change about himself?

I think you're right to consider R, but ... what makes you think he's different now? Getting along, traveling together well, appreciation for the other's sense of humor ... I don't think it's enough to maintain a strong partnership, either.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:23 PM, Wednesday, December 6th]

I'm wondering how to find posts from anyone who has done 2 Rs. Is that even possible? What does it look like? I feel like I need to "try it on" in my head to see if it fits. Doesn't change the discomfort for feeling like a schmuck for even thinking of R.

If you read my profile, yeah, I had some experience about ten years before I caught my WH out in a Craigslist binge. IME, it felt very much like real R the first time we went through it. I bought into all the typical pop-psy of "unmet needs" which was, and still is, popular with therapists. The problem is that marriages don't cheat. People do. So, while we were super busy making sure the marital problems were corrected, we failed to see the need for my WH to make the internal corrections he needed to make.

Once you reject the "unmet needs" fallacy and start looking at cheating and lying as a character problem, you can't look at it any other way. It's so easy to fall under the spell of a WS who is desperately trying to save his home deal. The tears and snot-bubbled promises to change look real because they are real... at the moment. Only time and hard work will tell if he really means it. Most don't, at least not at first, because underlying it all they don't really see the need for change.

In the cheater's actual values system (not the one they claim in public), there IS a legitimate reason why a person might cheat, and this is what has to change. Your WH is capable of saying 'yes' to betrayal, 'yes' to adultery, 'yes' to the lies and perfidy which goes with those things. No matter what he has told himself, his personal values and the boundaries which surround those values, did not reflect fidelity, honesty, loyalty, or care. He is demonstrably NOT the person he has portrayed himself to be, and until he actually is that person, he is not worthy of partnership with someone like you who does value those qualities.

We protect what we value. If your WH valued fidelity, he would have been faithful. His personal boundaries would have sprung up around that belief like a fence, and his actions would have been determined by those boundaries. It's not even a big, well-planned thing. It happens organically. You value fidelity, so you don't put yourself in situations where you're on the slippery slope. Your hobby friend hits on you, you shut it down and only talk about hobby, and if that doesn't work, you stop talking to that person. It's reflex, a response to a boundary you didn't even know you had until it was tested.

I think, in a lot of cases, WS's aren't ready to admit that they aren't who they thought they were, that their stated values aren't their actual values, that their boundaries are weak, permeable, maybe even non-existent. They look to blame the relationship because it's easier than facing the truth about their own character. Even when they're prostrate on the floor and condemning themselves in fits of weeping and apologies, you can't tell for sure that they're really going to accept this hard truth about themselves. It's not until they pull out all the stops in self-examination and are doing the very difficult, very humbling, work that they are likely to achieve meaningful and lasting change. It's not as simple as saying, "yeah, I get it now". The WS needs to understand how they got that way and then be willing to tackle whatever demons they've carried around that made it okay.

Anyway, long post shorter, I do believe in second R. I think the trick though is knowing what you need to see from the WS and then settling for nothing less. It can take time to achieve and it's not a perfect process, but once you understand that it's about character, values, and boundaries, you're in a better position to insist on real change.

Stillconfused: You asked:

what you went through the first time. Could you share that?

I've never been one to take to my bed, so that was not how it presented for me. It was a whole lot of crying, crying in inappropriate settings, anger." I couldn't sleep, still needed to work, but I yelled a lot of conversations in my head. I dialed the OP's number (she was my neighbor), but ended up hanging up and never did call her back. I got really cold with H- no dressing up any statements. But we had a live to lead-- a Halloween party coming we were hosting (H invited OW!! OMG! I made him tell her not to come.) He slept in the spare room for about 4 months. I made him watch me as we changed all the passwords to something I knew. Changed all the bank passwords to something he didn't know. I told him I wasn't going to promise anything- at any point I could change my mind and we were done. However, it was a good thing we were together, because 4 months later my 14yo attempted suicide, and I don't think I could have handled THAT without him. [she is a wonderful 23 yo Engineer now with a fantastic job and living a great life, thank God.]

What did he do besides MC 10 years ago?

I actually thought, up until a few weeks ago, we had a good R. We did not rug sweep. I remember telling him there was a hole in his soul because that was the only way he could possibly be someone who could betray someone else so deeply. I think I referred to Judas (we aren't exactly Bible people, either.) This wasn't cheating at a game, this was hurting someone fundamentally-- in some ways worse and more insidious than physical abuse. (I don't exactly agree with this now, but I remember thinking it then.) He did the promises, he allowed me access to all his world-- and I snooped. He put up with my random rantings that would pop up after monthly of seeming like I got over it. He always took accountability. He always owned it.

This time I see more rug-sweeping. BUT, we are apart and communicating daily by phone/facetime so I've not talked about the hard stuff that is running through my head. I'm not sure if he is also waiting until we are back together to see where we are.

ChamomileTea- what there is a lot of good stuff in your post. I'm going to have to reread it a few times.

once you understand that it's about character, values, and boundaries, you're in a better position to insist on real change.

Yes. I am fully aware now, this is about character. I think I knew it before, but didn't quite understand HOW to get real change. I think I asked for and got window-dressing change. He did all the things, but didn't change.

Oy- so much to think about.

From what you have shared it sounds like you thoroughly dealt with the first affair and he seemed to really get it. I wonder if repeat cheaters tend to forget the damage. Or possibly they just think there’s no way I’ll get caught. I completely agree this is a matter of character and I think that people that cheat come up with excuses that they start to believe. My WH did. And even though he seems extremely remorseful and is doing everything right I can’t say that he wouldn’t some time down the line come up with some narrative in his head to justify the selfishness and betrayal.

I am in a support group for betrayed wives and there are a handful there that are on d day two many years after reconciling. Did everything right and thought they were reconciled. Did so many things. Counseling, couples retreats. Everything. And she felt like their marriage was really good.

I also really feel for you because I think it tends to be even harder when you are generally happy in the marriage. It’s such a mind fuck to think man I felt really loved and like we were good and then find out they’re betraying you. As opposed to the marriage just being generally unhappy and the wayward spouse just generally being a jerk all around. I know it’s painful regardless but I see where you would struggle when you’re generally in a happy relationship. I tend to agree with Sisoons ever present wisdom in his thoughts though. is getting along and traveling well together enough if your spouse is dishonest and betraying you sexually? That statement he made really hit home for me.

[This message edited by Saltishealing at 11:14 PM, Wednesday, December 6th]

Hi Holly,
This is my 2nd round of R. You can read my bio for context. My fWH first A was 2012, started off as an EA with an old HS classmate who reconnected with him on FB 23 yrs after they had graduated HS. It was about 3 months EA, 1 month PA. On Dday he asked me for a D, was fully prepared to ride off into the sunset with this horrible woman. Leave all the kids (ours, hers), jobs, marriage, homes and go live off the grid with each other. Total irrational fantasy-land nonsense. Anyway, the whole thing blew up in their faces 2 weeks to the day he asked me for the D. He came to me begging for a second chance, he was apologetic, remorseful, he told me he saw the error of his ways and was prepared and ready to do all the work. So I offered the gift of reconciliation. We were living in separate homes - I was in our marital home, he had moved into his parent’s basement apartment. We did all the things right - went NC immediately with the AP, I notified OBS, we both went to IC and held off MC, we changed our phone numbers, we cut out ppl who had knowledge and helped facilitate his A - these were ppl (friends, family) who knew about his A and had helped him lie and deceive me to cover it up. We stuck around the town we lived in at that time for 12-13 months. But the AP had gone absolutely psycho - she was infuriated that my H had gone NC, blocked, deleted her from SM, changed his #, OBS had dumped her, took their 2 little girls and filed for D, she started to stalk us, drove by our home multiple times, all hours. That was too much for my own mental health - so we sold our home and moved all the way across the country to CA. We continued to do the work - we both continued our IC. We did marriage retreats, seminars, we read books. We did NOT rug sweep. We confronted every issue & problem head-on. Whatever came up we dealt with it. We started MC about 2 yrs after dday. We did MC for years. We did IC for years. (he’s military retired, has issues w combat PTSD and is STILL in IC!!) For 10 years we had what I thought was a healthy full relationship. Sex was great, we communicated. We both weren’t working. He was military retired and I went back to school so we spent a lot of time together doing what we wanted. Traveling, no jobs, healthy bank account, the youngest had gone off to college. Life was so good. And then we stoped doing the work. We got lazy. We didn’t put us first. We drifted. Life got in the way. He was still doin IC with his trauma therapist - but the focus shifted and I don’t believe he was honest in his therapy. I stopped IC because I felt I didn’t need it anymore. We stopped MC. His mom died, then his step dad; things like illnesses, surgeries, kids moving on/out, our middle daughter got married, another move across the country and then an in-state move. Life happened. He decided to pursue a 2nd career - a lifelong dream to become a paramedic. I had graduated with my 2nd degree; he went back to college. I got a new job, he did too. His career took off, so did mine. For the last part of 2021 I noticed changes - new friends, a little more protective of his phone, just some potential red flags. I started to pay attention more - I am an IT professional, I set up my own home network, I set up all the accounts and passwords, I had access to everything. We share the same apple account! His phone messages were going to every device we had on that account - iPads, iMac, MacBooks. That had been set up years earlier - total transparency. So I stared to snoop. I didn’t find anything related to any affair, EA or otherwise. But I was vigilant. 2022 was a year we fought a lot - he had new friends at the Fire Dept. The group text he was on with the firefighters and EMS guys were raunchy locker room guy talk. Not a fan. I found it tasteless and tacky. He said that’s the culture. He has huge issue with boundaries. We knew this in 2012. We worked on it. Then those boundary lines blurred. I was never comfortable with him having female friends. I never thought it appropriate for females to be texting my husband. Classmates of his, female coworkers texting daily how are you doing, what’s up? Sharing small talk. It was too much and I was uncomfortable. And asked him to curb all that. He gaslit me. And we fought about it all the time. The time and attention he gave to his classmates and work friends, that was time he was taking away from me, from us. He disagreed and continued. That was pretty much all of 2022. By the end of 2022 - December - we were both not happy. I was super vigilant and hated being the marriage police. December 26, 2022 I looked at his FB messenger and saw a conversation thread spanning about 7-10 days with a woman who he had known since childhood. A woman who was a family friend. A woman who I thought was my friend!!! The conversation didn’t happen every day, it was sporadic. But it was clearly the beginnings of an EA. And I felt like I was shoved right back into 2012. How fucking DARE he!!! And I went scorched earth. She was divorced so no OBS - but I sure let the whole family know what I had discovered. He was at work when I discovered the messages - and like true Blackbird fashion - I screenshot every message and stored it in a digital vault. I contacted her. I let his ass know what I found. I told our kids - they are all grown and off on their own. The thing that was different this time - was that I had had ENOUGH. And yes while I was re-traumatized, I went stone cold and told him, I don’t know if I want to R again. No it’s not a PA. But this is STILL a betrayal. And so here we are - it’s been almost 1 full year since Dday #2. I am back in IC, he’s still in IC but has been more transparent with his therapist about all the things going on in his life - not just military trauma, marital issues are discussed more now. We have talked about MC - but haven’t committed to that quite yet. We are doing so much better. He’s laser focused on school and completing his program - he’s worked super hard on boundaries. When I say "this makes me uncomfortable" he says "what can I do for you to remove that pain or make it less uncomfortable?" Absolutely no female friendships, just work and interaction on the job, no one needs to be texting him after hours about his life. That’s my job. We’ve worked on a ton of other things. It has been a rough 2023 - but as I approach the anniversary of Dday #2 I feel hopeful. I also feel strong and confident that I could make a go of this by myself if I have to. He knows that. Before I was too scared to even contemplate what life would look like divorced. I know what I would get in the D, assets, etc I would be just fine. I hope my story helps you see that yes there is a path to another R. It’s not for everyone and I get that. For us, this is what works for us, our marriage. Someone said sometimes you have to burn the marriage all the way to the ground. This is our 2nd attempt at R. I know I can walk away and be just fine. He is well aware of my mindset. Good luck in whatever you decide to do!! I wish you all the best!!
BB

Blackbird- thank you for your story. There are a lot of similarities with mine as far as timeline goes. Does he get what his EA did to you? Did he ever address the notion that it was a HIM problem, not a marriage problem?

I have for a long time thought WH would benefit from IC. He grew up in a verbally abusive household (there may have been physical abuse, but he doesn't remember any of it-- his parents divorced when he was 7yo.) His side of family is enormously messed up. My childhood and family is very apple-pie (as far as I know!). He also has PTSD from 27yrs as an LEO. He retired in 2019 but still has days where he can't sleep or has nightmares. He has read a few books and said he has benefitted from them with regards to dealing with his childhood, however I think he needs more.

Actually, I doubly think he needs more, given I *thought* his issues were outside of our marriage and really didn't affect us. Oops- didn't call that one right.

I've never done any IC, although I'm considering it now as I sort through this mess in my head.

I'm having difficulty calling the other OBS. I have his name and I think his number. I've picked up the phone a few times, but then can't figure out exactly what to say! Is there a guideline for this?

My advice:

Speak to him as you would want to be addressed in this situation. Calmly and With compassion

Tell OBS,
Hi, my name is Holly, this is difficult call to make but I discovered my spouse has been having an affair with your wife. I thought you should know.

You can add - he says it is over

This man needs to know. She could be sleeping with others too and it might become a health issue.

There. I just left a voicemail for WBS. I think.

Nope- just got a text back wrong number. (well, that's embarrassing.) I have no idea how to reach WBS. I looked through over 10 different numbers and old employers. No social media that I could verify. Since I have his address, I guess I could send a letter, but that could get intercepted.

Ugh. I feel dirty.

[This message edited by HollyLou at 10:57 PM, Friday, December 8th]

Take a letter to the post office. Tell them you want to send it as a registered letter and it requires the recipients signature, and only their signature. They will make sure that's done.

Include a copy of an evidence. Tell them who you are. Who your husband is, and the facts of the affair.

Then it can't be intercepted.

I'm wondering how to find posts from anyone who has done 2 Rs. Is that even possible? What does it look like? I feel like I need to "try it on" in my head to see if it fits.

I did 12-13 years of a wreckonciliation. Crazily, I thought we had had a largely successful reconciliation - until the day he just walked out and I never laid eyes on him again. Just like that, it all came to a grinding halt.

Or so it seemed.

But in time, with distance, and a better ability for reflection those two things bring, I can now see that nothing really ever changed. He just became better at covering his tracks…and I subsequently just lost faith in my own ability to accurately judge the situation. Turns out that was far more damaging than whatever place he stuck his dick.

This is where one has to ask…how many personal experiences does a person need to understand the damage done by demonstrating the very behavior that they promised - vowed - to never do? Why was it ever my job to teach him that? Why was it ever my job to convince him that it really was that damaging? (He was no dummy to that…it’s the very reason why he never tried to negotiate an open marriage.)

They know. Cheaters know. It’s why they hide it. This literally is the point of the old adage “fool me once”…because at some point we DO have to take responsibility for putting ourselves in the line of fire with a person that has both demonstrated a fascination with “guns” AND the willingness to aim it at us and pull the trigger.

It’s simple. Truly. Painful but simple. And to move forward in any way without the consideration and accommodation for such information is sacrificing your own self for someone who has demonstrated that they have no regard for you or your sacrifice. It doesn’t matter whether you D or stay in the marriage (because you’ve got nothing to suggest that a real R is even an option.) It only matters that you recognize and accept what you are currently dealing with.

Somebody needs to be looking out for you. Who is going to do that if you don’t?

[This message edited by truthsetmefree at 12:18 AM, Saturday, December 9th]