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We recently moved from the West Coast to the East Coast. H had been in IC since D-Day, although he'd had to switch a few times due to a previous move. When we were ready to leave the West Coast, he led me to believe he would find someone new at our new location. He told me his current therapist does not do video appointments, but she was going to get him some names of people in our new area. Fast forward four months after we arrived, and he had not done anything about it. So I brought it up in a couple's therapy session (we are still 'seeing' our West Coast therapist via video for appts.) after he made a comment about 'letting sleeping dogs lie' when we were discussing a non-affair related issue. It about set my hair on fire I was so livid.

He's been in therapy for six years, but again, three different people. He has learned a lot about himself, but from my viewpoint, I still see behaviors that raise red flags. For one... he led me to believe he was going to continue after we moved, and when at some point he decided not to, he didn't level with me (not that I would have been happy about it) - he just let me continue believing he was going to resume. Secondly, there are two major experiences in his life that he has never dealt with in therapy. He has no knowledge or memory of these experiences, but his brother told me about them when H was away at a residential treatment center: 1) their father had affair(s) - their mother told H's brother, who then relayed it to me. 2) H was sexually assaulted by some neighborhood boys when he was around 7 or 8 years old. H's brother has no reason to make any of this up. He provided me with details. When I went to visit H at the residential treatment center, I told him what his brother had told me. Again, he claims he has no knowledge or memory of any of this. So he has not made it a priority to explore these possibilities. So of course, his therapist never really pushed the issues.

I have a really hard time believing that those kinds of experiences are not formative; I believe that he's somehow rug-sweeping them because he doesn't want to deal with the possibilities and pain. Again, the 'don't let sleeping dogs lie' remark hit me hard when he made it in our couple's session.

He's always been completely honest that the only reason he was doing therapy was to save our marriage. He's never gotten to a point where he says he's doing it for himself. That bothers me. If I were to walk away tomorrow, he'd never resume. We've had many discussions with our couple's therapist about my anger at him for leading me on about his willingness to continue therapy in our new location. He has stated that he doesn't know what his goals should be in starting over again. Our couple's therapist has shared that most times, people go into therapy because they're curious about themselves and want to understand themselves more. He says he's not curious about himself... which again, is a red flag to me. But wtf good is it going to be for him to pick back up again if he's only doing it for the marriage? He wants to know how long I want him to do this, like what am I looking for. I don't have an answer to that is what I've told him.

I remember when I started therapy many years ago and was reluctant (mostly due to money). I remember my therapist encouraging me to consider why I didn't value myself enough to spend the time and money on myself. That alone was enough to open up a Pandora's Box. But it took me a while (at least 3-4 years) before I let go of the money and time sacrifices and committed to the process. I was pretty screwed up back then. I had a wonderful therapist who knew how to challenge me while being supportive. FWIW, his previous therapists all know that he was only doing it to save the marriage. I just kept hoping that they'd somehow make him see why it's so important to do it for yourself first, then a relationship.

So I guess this is all a long way of asking, did your betraying partners go to individual therapy just to save the marriage, and eventually decided they didn't want to look at more painful stuff from their childhoods, so they wanted to quit? Because I don't think I can stay with someone who possibly has that kind of trauma and is unwilling to explore it. He says that our being in couple's therapy is his way of showing he's still invested in the process. And to be fair, our couple's therapists have told him he's doing good work in therapy. But I don't think any professional therapist would force someone to look at childhood traumas.

For the past couple of weeks, he's been saying after the holidays he was going to reach out to a couple of names on the list he got from his previous therapist. But he won't admit he's doing it for himself. He says he's doing it for me. Why isn't this enough for me? I mean, he's an adult, he can do whatever he wants. I told him I was pissed he led me on right before our move because it was disrespectful to me, to not let me make choices based on his choices. When I explained that to him, he said he understood now how his behavior was hurtful to me. So with that in mind, he will make some phone calls this week.

I see people here talking about radical honesty. That's what I want, even if telling me something leads me to make a choice he won't like, like leaving him. I don't know how to explain that concept to him.

If he doesn't, what recourse do I have? How can I explain to him how dismissed I feel? I don't want to be in a relationship with someone who is not curious about themselves. Is that too much to ask?

I can sooo relate to this. But you're right that a professional therapist ethically isn't going to start by hitting him over the head with his childhood issues. And like so many abuse victims, their early coping mechanism of avoidance becomes their normal way of dealing with things, gradually becomes a fixed style, and will be difficult for them to change.

Last month, I came across the term "avoidance coping mechanism," which somehow my psychology degree coursework never included (and I was in college studying that subject in depth from 2006-10!) So I got curious to find out what it looks like, as our MC once told us my WH showed many Avoidant Personality traits.

Turns out, MY primary coping mechanism is Avoidant, also! I guess having to play the role of "Chief Investigator" since D-Day 1 twenty-two years ago obscured my lifelong pattern of coping with crap by Avoiding it. But thinking back to before this M, I always tried to avoid uproar. Even as a kid, I'd go for walks in the woods just to get out of our chaotic, noisy house full of brothers or my sister hollering and TVs blaring. I was the oldest, but it never occurred to me I could have asked for some peace and quiet. When I was 20, my mother ran away (an Avoidant move) to get away from our alcoholic father. Then all 4 of us kids ran off to distant locations and married very young. Through decades of jobs, I'd strive to be super cooperative, even if my ideas weren't getting any traction. I now see how my use of Avoidance Coping helped me get through a shit ton of adverse situations, BUT also made me comfortable enough to accept a partner (WH) who likewise Avoids anything unpleasant! My WH shows zero interest in looking within.

It sounds like your H uses that style of coping, too. Not gonna be quick and easy to change. But how to motivate ourselves to try and be less avoidant? That is the key question.

I can see why you're annoyed, though. His actions will speak louder than his explanations for why he goes to therapy.

Our couple's therapist has shared that most times, people go into therapy because they're curious about themselves and want to understand themselves more.

I'm not so sure about that. I think people start therapy because they want something in their lives to change. I mena: what is the purpose of 'understanding' oneself, if not to arrange life more to the person's liking?

If your H doesn't want his life to change, I don't see why IC would help him. Do you want him to change? Is the change important enough to say, 'Change this, or one of us is out of here?'

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:30 PM, Tuesday, January 2nd]

If your H doesn't want his life to change, I don't see why IC would help him. Do you want him to change? Is the change important enough to say, 'Change this, or one of us is out of here?'

He says he likes the way things are going right now, translated to 'I don't want to, nor see the need to, drudge up stuff from my childhood'. He feels he is in a good place. But when I experience his betraying me by saying he was going to continue therapy when we move, then not following through with it, it raises red flags. For more context, when we moved from the Midwest to the West Coast a year after DDay, he also said then he would find a new therapist (this was pre-Covid when few therapists were doing virtual appts.) when we arrived. Four months passed by and he still hadn't done anything about it; we had lots of words about it and I made it as clear as could be that it left me feeling unsafe when he 'lapsed' on this promise. It wasn't until I brought it up in couple's therapy that he finally decided he'd do it. Prior to our most recent move, I'd assumed he'd continue with his therapist virtually so he wouldn't have to start over again (she offered virtual during Covid). After his last appt. with her in person, he told me it was his last appt. with her. I said, "You mean in person?" And he replied, no, she doesn't do virtual. I was upset and brought it up in couple's therapy, because I thought then, that he was basically saying, "I'm done with therapy." But then in that appt., he told us (me and our therapist) that he'd been given some names for referrals in our new location. So he KNEW I was upset at the time about his possibly not continuing. Yet, he continued to string me along by not doing it, and not saying anything until I brought it up a few weeks ago.

I guess I have to ask myself if saying to him, 'change this or one of us is out of here' is an option I feel works.

Regarding wanting him to change, yes, he needs to stop telling me he's going to do things that are really important to me, and not do them. Of course, this is not a new behavior - it's been there for most of our marriage. But now I'm speaking up about it and not stuffing it, which is causing the conflict.

Not following through on what you think are commitments is a betrayal.

I'm likely to forget little things, perhaps because of ADHD. If something is important to my W, she asks me when I'll do it and when she can bring it up if I don't. That prevents conflict and nagging, even when I realize - and say - that I'm not willing to do something.

IC is useless if the WS is unwilling; it can also be detrimental if they end up with a therapist that validates all their worse impulses and behaviors. Tons of cheaters simply capitulate to their BS, go to IC, and then claim they're "doing the work" when they're actually doing nothing.

Also, a lot of BSs have unrealistic expectations about what IC can and can't achieve. For example, it can help with the diagnosis and management of a mental health disorder. It can help with the WS learn new and better coping mechanisms. But it can't serve as "character transplant," help the WS develop a system of morals and values that aligns with their BS's, or make a WS feel more committed to and invested in their relationship.

So rather than getting frustrated at your WH, I think there are a few questions that you ought to explore both together and individually:

-What are your specific reasons for wanting him to be in therapy?

-What do you hope therapy will achieve?

-Have you asked him what his specific goals are for growth and recovery?

-What other options besides IC that could help both of you get the results that you want?

As someone who has been in therapy on and off my entire life, I can tell you that it's been most beneficial to me when there was a specific problem that I was having trouble managing on my own (the trauma of my divorce, postpartum depression, ADHD, etc) and there were clear, measurable therapeutic goals that were set at the start of therapy.

The times that therapy has been the least beneficial and productive were when I was going at the behest of other people (in my case, my parents), paying a therapist just to vent about my problems, or rehashing painful memories that, in my opinion, had little or no impact on the issues I was currently facing.

Therefore, if your husband is feeling apathetic about IC for the above reasons, I don't think you should continue pushing him to do so. Regarding the sexual assault, even if it happened, it's not really your place to determine what relevance it has to his behavior or the problems in your marriage and I don't think you should push him to discuss it or recover his memories if he doesn't want to.

However, you can and should openly communicate how you're feeling, how his behavior effects you, what your needs are going forward, and what conditions you have for remaining married to him. If he wants the marriage to work, then the onus should be on him to find the best path forward, rather than expecting you to tell him what to do and then shooting down your ideas or begrudgingly going along with them.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 5:26 PM, Wednesday, January 3rd]

Not following through on what you think are commitments is a betrayal.

THIS!!

And this to me is an example of why I think he needs to resume therapy. He obviously has not gotten the message that not following through on what I think was a commitment is another betrayal. He thinks because he intended to, but then never got around to it, absolves him of the commitment he made. It's not the first time he's said some behavior he engaged in, he didn't do it with the intention of hurting me and that should speak for something.

I don't know that intentions matter as much as he thinks.

Ok, let’s say he goes to therapy because you want him to do what he said he was going to do…. but he still thinks it’s a waste of time and isn’t engaged in the process. What do you think is going to change?

You keep trying to get your H to do things he has NO INTENTION OF DOING.

You are suffering. He is not.

People (most people generally) will only do what they want. They will only change when they decide they want to make a change.

No amount of asking or therapy or discussions will make a difference.

I think you are at a crossroads here. You need to accept he’s not following through in things he said he would do. And then decide what to do in light of the fact he doesn’t care to honor his word.

You can certainly stay married to him, but stop believing his words. Stop relying on his broken promise(s).

I think when you stop frustrating yourself, things will improve for you.

number4, I get the sense that your request for IC for him is predicated on the belief that IC "works" and can truly "bring improvement in someone's life." But what if such IC really is not a fix, as others have cautioned?

I'm wondering if your requesting him to do IC is actually about your wanting/needing your spouse to do the kind of deep-seated thinking he should already have done on his attitudes, his behaviors, and whatever crap mindset led him to the messes he has made in your lives? Just wondering why the heck he couldn't also do this kind of reflecting independent of an IC, if he's at all invested in finding out what went sideways in his character development?

Just wondering why the heck he couldn't also do this kind of reflecting independent of an IC, if he's at all invested in finding out what went sideways in his character development?

I actually would really welcome that. Many years ago I used to be a regular attendee of ACA (Adult Children of Alcoholic) meetings. I probably gained as much through attending that group as I did in individual therapy. I would love it if he said, "number 4, I really want to learn more about why I made the choices I have throughout my life, so I'm going to go to a 12-step meeting." Honestly, I think people at 12-step meetings are far less forgiving than individual therapists. Now that may be because you often have multiple contacts with people at those meetings a week, whereas, a therapist you only tend to see once a week. And 12-steppers will call you on your bullshit, whereas a therapist will be much more subtle. FWIW... his parents were raging alcoholics, so he definitely qualifies for ACA (mine were just dysfunctional). And he's explored the impact that that had on his childhood and growing up. He absolutely acknowledges that there was neglect and abuse. And when appropriate, in our couple's therapy, he admits to the impact growing up in that kind of household has on who he became.

He seems to be able to articulate what went wrong in his life; on his own, he will read self-help books yet, here we are... something that was very important to me, he failed to honor. He picked the easy way out, and even now admits it ends up not being the easy way out.

We have an appt. with our couple's therapist tomorrow and you all have given me a number of things to chew on until then.

EDITED TO ADD: very early on, after I found this website, I suggested he join to learn some interesting perspectives on cheating from both the betrayed and betrayer. He never did.

[This message edited by number4 at 3:08 AM, Monday, January 8th]

So it sounds like he has honestly acknowledged his dysfunctional FOO influences. Yet, as I found out myself recently, our childhood coping mechanisms we developed are damned hard to crack out of as an adult, even when we think we want to go a new way. It's natural to avoid facing facts that may open up a major can of worms, such that "taking the easy way out" has become our "default setting" if that makes sense. And so, his coming from a family where both his mother and father were "raging alcoholics," it's kinda no surprise he resists....There are genetic components to this as well, if his mother was drinking before he was born.

He says he wants to do the work, but then it's unclear to him what benefit it would be, as the downside might be having to deconstruct his entire childhood edifice of "normalcy" and therefore he hits the brakes. Sounds about like it?

My WW could benefit from IC, even her two best friends told me the same (although they won’t rock the boat to their friendship by suggesting she go…..some friends huh?). I am not going to force her to do something she obviously doesn’t want to do, if her heart isn’t in it, and she’s not doing it for the right reasons, then I’d guess it likely won’t help. I am in IC because I’m tired of the status quo that is my life. I have become a "friends with benefits" to my wife who won’t engage emotionally with me concerning feeling and thoughts of the affair. I’m learning through therapy why the affair has made me feel "unlovable" and am working hard to resolve that feeling. I’m now learning to embrace and love who I am, flaws and all, and that I am worthy of being loved. With this realization, I’m hoping to rebuild confidence in myself. Once that goal is reached, I’ll then have the ability to choose with confidence how to move forward with my life. If my WW chooses to do nothing, then that is her right, but it doesn’t mean I need to stick around in a relationship and be abused. She has the choice to work on herself or lose me, simple as that, and I’m learning to be OK with that. I tell you all of this because I want to to focus more on yourself and loving who you are and worry less about him. If he wants a relationship with you moving forward, he will put forth the effort. If not, then just be the best you that you can and look forward to a new, happy, self fulfilling life.

I like what Copingmybest advises, but whenever I read about the need to focus more on ourselves, I think "ok, but would somebody please tell me how to do that, while my WH is in my house, in my space, yet constantly aggravating me with his inability to connect, etc., etc.?"

We have chosen to coexist with them in an undefined interim after betrayal, during which we hope we are rebuilding a new M. So when we don't see some of the foundations getting repaired, we can't help but wonder if the floor is going to hold up long term. If you are seeing him doing deeper work, you can feel more confident working on other aspects of your "house," such as those expectations of being loved and respected, like Copingmybest is doing. (I'm drawing such a corny analogy!)

So he admits he has FOO issues, grew up with alcoholic parents and his marriage is currently struggling.

But yet doesn’t take steps to really make changes. He has or has had therapy but not addressed the deeper issues.

Maybe he really doesn’t want to address his unresolved issues. Too painful. Too much to face. Whatever.

Number4 I think you should accept him for who and what he is. It’s been years. He’s not changing.

Maybe what needs to change is you — your acceptance of him. He’s not going to do what needs to get done — he’s shown you that.

I think maybe you need to figure out how or what you will do with that so your life is more about you and your happiness.

But when specifically do we conclude that the person we are living with is never going to change, despite their many assurances? Is there a sure-fire analysis we can rely upon to make such an assessment, or do we make that conclusive judgment based on having reached the limits of our tolerance?

I hope that a breakthrough can happen for you guys, since you just relocated across country. What are the stakes you face, if he won't keep his promises about therapy? Is it worth scuttling the M for? If so, then you were holding on to the M only conditionally (like I have done) so then your answer would become apparent.

The issue isn't therapy for your fWS. As I see it, the issue for you is that your H doesn't follow through on his commitments.

About the only thing you can do is to confront him each time he fails and tell him good intentions aren't enough. You can hope he says something like, 'I recognize the problem, but I don't know how to solve it.' Then you can say, 'Therapy.'

*****

T/J - the mention of Adult Children of Alcoholics reminds me of a cartoon I thought was hilarious.

Gigantic auditorium.
Banner implying this is a meeting of 'Adult Children of Normal Parents'.
a speaker at the podium.
2 people in the audience.

End T/J

T/J - the mention of Adult Children of Alcoholics reminds me of a cartoon I thought was hilarious.

Gigantic auditorium.
Banner implying this is a meeting of 'Adult Children of Normal Parents'.
a speaker at the podium.
2 people in the audience.

End T/J

Ain't it the truth!

Number4 I think you should accept him for who and what he is. It’s been years. He’s not changing.

But he has changed in many ways. I just have a hard time accepting that not exploring those two traumas in particular doesn't have an impact on his core beliefs about himself.

I spent some time on the phone with a good friend last night, who knows all the details of our situation and knows H. When I shared my frustrations with her, she said, "He must be experiencing some kind of intense terror at the thought of therapy that he's so reluctant." She says this as someone whose own adult son (mid 40s) is really struggling with adulting and is refusing to go to therapy despite her offer of paying for it. Now, she doesn't live with him, but she's incredibly worried about him. And she sees this reluctance to therapy as a sign of how deep the trauma might be.

FWIW... H must have sensed I was getting riled up again (although I hadn't said anything in a while), because when I got up this morning, he told me he had reached out to two therapists this morning. One is not taking new patients, though, despite what their website said. Or maybe he did it because he knows we have a couple's therapy session later today and he wants this to not be an issue.

Adding another tidbit - when we were discussing this in couple's therapy a few weeks ago, and he kept commenting on not knowing what 'goals' to set for therapy, and that he didn't know what to say he wants out of it, our therapist said often times people go into therapy because they are curious about themselves and want to learn more about why and how they operate. She asked him if he was curious about himself, and he said, "No." So that sort of sums up his take. And now that I'm thinking about it, because he's asked me what I think his 'goal' should be for therapy, maybe I should tell him that he could explore why he's not curious about himself. I think a therapist could work with that.

Or maybe he did it because he knows we have a couple's therapy session later today and he wants this to not be an issue.

I do a lot of things that are good for me mainly to avoid having to deal with being confronted. I still get the benefit.

A decent therapist can deal with anything a client wants to change. If a client complains about the weather, the therapist can ask why they think they can affect the weather....