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I feel that I am stuck here. Not so much about the past, but about the future. When going to bed I envision scenarios in which my WH will cross boundaries again and how I will react. For example, I've asked him not to give his number/text to any woman I don't know and am not friends with (this has caused major issues in the past, but I think at this point he understands it is a consequence of his lack of boundaries throughout our entire M). So I imagine that he does this and is "chatting" with a co-worker (as he doesn't go anywhere except work without me), and is keeping it a secret. I run through this in my head! Finding out and how I would react! I know this isn't healthy and I tell myself to stop, but for the life of me...it just continues...and keeps me up at night! Unfortunately for me I have a very good active imagination and can create elaborate dialogue that includes feelings!

I know that it is up to me to stop thinking like this, but that really isn't helpful in the moment. As I said, I can be very detailed and can feel the pain of it. I believe that part of it is that I am still not at the place of trust with him and able to be vulnerable. As in, I don't think I can let my defenses down yet. And of course, he feels this. I go through the motions of being there and interacting, and trying to be more intimate, but that closeness we used to have is no longer there, and I feel it might never return.

Just wondering if other BS's have gone through this and what helped you through? I don't think I will ever be able to trust him fully, though I do believe he would never cheat again, I don't believe that he will be able to keep up boundaries because I think he still thinks it's no big deal to give his number to his co-workers and chat a bit, as long as he doesn't cross lines. For me, right now, I don't feel comfortable with him sharing his number.

Am I out of line here? Do I need to let him do what he wants in this regard? Or am I still justified? To be clear, I'm not saying that he isn't "allowed" to talk to women. Of course he can't navigate the world without interacting with women. I just don't feel comfortable with him having their number and texting women I don't know.

Anyway, advice is welcomed and appreciated.

he still thinks it's no big deal to give his number to his co-workers and chat a bit, as long as he doesn't cross lines. For me, right now, I don't feel comfortable with him sharing his number.

This is probably keeping your fight, flight or freeze response in hyperdrive. Until he has built up a level of trust, you will probably have the issue with what I call thought spirals. Your brain is telling you that you're still in danger for trauma.

What is he doing to rebuild trust in your relationship? You'll never be back to 100% trust, because look where that got you last time. While you think he wouldn't cheat again, you never know.

I don't think you're out of line while you're still healing, IMHO.

For me, mindfulness and meditation helped me to get through thought spirals. Of course, I'm now D and don't have to put up with the on-going strain of XWH's actions.

In my case it is very normal behavior. After the shock wore off and we were in R, I would torment myself with what if’s. Our lizard brains are made to warn us and keep us safe. I rehearsed these "what if" scenarios in my head.

Commercial pilots go through scenario based training. They train and prepare for emergencies, so the response becomes second nature. When a warning light comes on, they go through a checklist to discover is it real or just a bad reading?

Since Dday, I have rehearsed these checklists in my head repeatedly. If a warning goes off I will look to determine if it’s a false warning.

Any sketchy behavior
Guarding the phone
Being verbally disrespectful
Running odd errands

Any of these things appear then I will drill deeper into them, calm and cool like the pilot in an emergency.

Thank you for the response. I definitely feel like this is a me issue, but perfectly understandable under the circumstances. It isn't just this, I often think about how he might be badmouthing me to others, or just stayed with me because of what I do for him and not because he loves me. I have a hard time believing he does love me. Ok, complete honesty, even with myself, I DON'T believe that he loves me. He tells me he does, that he did during the A, and he does SOME things to try and make me feel loved, but, I just don't believe it. So obviously I'm still feeling the sting of the A, the pre-A M (with a LOT of DARVO), and unable to let the resentment go.

I mean, I put up with a LOT of his SELFISHNESS in so many areas of our M and Family life, and this is the thanks I got. I feel so stupid for giving and giving and giving, and him taking and taking and taking. I poured everything into him, our M, our kids, our family, our home and emptied myself continuously, and while he overflowed (though apparently not enough since he still had issues with me), he never poured back into me.

And, I think I feel that what he's doing now might be too little too late. I just can't seem to get past it. I know I do a lot of negative talk, but it's so hard to bring up the positive when there is SO MUCH history to get through. And I'm not even talking about the A. My thoughts are more on how he treated me throughout the M, and how sometimes I feel the exact same way as then. As if nothing has really changed. I continue to immerse myself in healing myself and working on the relationship, while he just does the bare minimum. He hasn't even gone back to IC or MC at this point. He said he wasn't against it, that he thought it helped, and if I wanted him to go, just let him know. What I want is for HIM to be pro-active in that. For HIM to make the appointment and let me know he's going, or would like me to come to HIS appointment!

Still, I hate the negative commentary running around my head. I feel like I am continuously punishing myself with it. Self flagellation if you will. I want it to stop. I've tried Meditating and I am terrible at it. I know it's a learned skill and you have to practice it, maybe I can incorporate it into my bedtime routine.

I feel like I'm all over the place here. Thinking about the next shoe to drop in the future, and struggling to let go of the resentment of the past!

I agree with the other posters who say it's a trauma response. I'm not super familiar with your story (other than there is an OC), but I do not think you're being unreasonable.

My guess is that a large part of your vigilance is a reaction to your husband's lack of vigilance. His blasé attitude and confidence that he can muscle through it, and the fact that he feels like his lack of walls with women outside the marriage is "no big deal", is causing you to need to fill that void. Not texting women outside of work, is a reasonable boundary for someone who has struggled with inappropriate relationships. There is a reason that alcoholics avoid going to bars when they are in recovery. This isn't different than that. He shouldn't voluntarily be putting himself in situations where risk abounds.

If instead of you, it was HIM that was zealously guarding your marriage, I think you may eventually start feeling differently. If you could trust him to be careful, I don't think you would feel as much need to.

I feel like I'm all over the place here. Thinking about the next shoe to drop in the future, and struggling to let go of the resentment of the past!

Fornlau— I’m not reading any victim mentality here, all I see is pain — and a whole lot of normal responses to the emotional trauma caused by infidelity.

I think the key now is to focus on what you want and need.

And my take, FWIW, your husband hasn’t done the work to make you feel safe.

Also, it is rare to need phone numbers for work related communications anymore. My wife was a CEO and everything was on the work network: Email, work zoom calls (or similar tech), etc, cover all the bases for WORK. So it is a bid odd to exchange cell numbers at this point.

The thing I had to do was let go of the outcome. Married or not, I had to know I was going to be fine.

The day I knew I was awesome (and let me add, rebuilding ME took several years) again, I was good to go. That’s really when R started for me, when I didn’t lose sleep over what may or may not happen, because I was strong enough to be alone. Somehow, recovering that inner strength made me a better partner, and R started in earnest. I was finally safe enough to let the walls down and be vulnerable.

So, I think those circular feelings and worries will roll on until either your husband helps you feel better about HIS work to be safe, or you find a way to focus more on your healing to get stronger.

I sure wish there was a faster way through, but I don’t know of any other than choosing what you want and need going forward.

"When a warning light comes on, they go through a checklist to discover is it real or just a bad reading"

For me the copilot (EX WH) was busy telling me we were not going down while he had figuratively set the course for the wrong destination, had drained all the gas from the tank, and was breaking all the windows.

We all see things differently. My SO and I do not share our phone number with people we could see as potential sexual partners. We allow each other to use each other’s phones. It’s just too much trouble to plug and unplug CarPlay and neither of us are hiding an affair. But each partner has the right to set their own boundaries. The thing for me is whether I accept those boundaries or not.

I don't think it's victim mentality either.

I do think you are discussing a couple of different issues here.

The forecasting you are doing in your head is, imo and as stated above, your brain's way of preparing you. It's normal, I think after a trauma.

It might also be a bit of giving yourself a sense of control. You're preparing and therefore you will be ready and control this situation next time it happens.

But you're also talking about not feeling safe and the lack of effort your WH is making (which likely triggers your need to "prepare"). As someone else posted, you can't relax your vigilance because he isn't being vigilant enough. Transfer of vigilance is described as a positive in terms of Reconciliation. If you thought/felt he was bearing a sword and shield over your relationship, you might get a better nights sleep.

Your trust is broken, as it should be. He's not doing everything he can do to build it back. So why would you believe anything? I think you're reactions are normal.

The only answer is the hardest one really: focus on your own healing. Besides the scenarios you run through your head, what else have you done to prepare for any eventuality? IC for mental health? Nutrition and exercise for physical health? Connecting with others that bring you joy? A bank account with your name only in case you need it? A consultation with an attorney to see what separation or divorce might look like?

Loving yourself in those ways (and any others you can think of) will grow your strength. Having even a small exit plan will help you feel less vulnerable to him. Trust you. Letting go out of the outcome is easier when you know you're going to land on your own two feet either way.

Yes! Definitely trauma response.

I did this a lot for the two years after my husbands affair. I had a lot of issues trusting solid footing in our marriage after the mess I created and then he created, it just felt like a big old dumpster fire to me.

So, I wrote down my fears, and then wrote down what I think my mental payoff was for these stories, and then I put down a better thought next to it.

For example: Imagine him breaking the boundary.

Better thought: I am strong enough in myself to not keep doing this.

And as I would have those thinking episodes I would find myself very invested in the narrative my mind wanted to go in. Fight or flight is probably firing off some sort of chemical in your brain. So you have to think of it as weening.

So in the beginning, I would find myself deep into my stories before even catching myself. So for a while going over the lists and writing down alternative thoughts just kept me mindful that I was doing it.

When I became aware of it, I would tell myself a different story. That I am strong enough to do what’s needed. And I found myself kind of preparing things to increase my confidence. I realized some of my fears surrounded leaving my job to travel with him. Him making all the money made me feel vulnerable so I found ways to correct that.

And so it was a process of shoring up my life that was less inclined towards needing to have him in it. Without the need I was left with the want. And when you want something rather than needing it, then you can feel empowered.

So as I worked on becoming empowered, I kept interrupting the thought and putting better ones in their place. The time would be in the old stories shortened, and eventually I felt the sap of my energy when it would begin. It felt better to be positive. It took many months, maybe even the better part of a year.

I rarely worry anymore. I don’t have to trust him 100 percent (though I do trust him probably as well as I am ever going to), but I do trust myself 100 percent. That is an attitude that takes time to cultivate.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:35 PM, Tuesday, January 30th]

I really want ro respo d ro everyone but I'm heading out to celebrate my oldest son's 21st BD. You have given me a lot to think about and made me feel better about the normalcy of my thinking.

Some have hit the nail on the head with the fact that WH has not done the work to make me feel safe.

I do like the thought of focusing on my healing and moving forward. I do t have a job so that makes me feel uncomfortable in the relationship being wholey dependent on him financially, though I'm sure he would feel hurt if I told him that. But it is what it is.

Tonight I'm going to have fun and enjoy time with my kids!

As others have said, this is not "victim Mentality" but normal processing of what has befallen you.
You have been blindsided by a nuclear bomb and you are in survival mode.

I will give you the advice that helped me the most and it is summed up in two words:

"Exit Strategy"

I started to work a plan on how I would move if anything remotely like this happened again in my life. I decided that I will not tolerate it again.

A BS trying to R is giving the best yet hardest gift one can give to a WS...a second chance. If they look at that gift and dont value it then they deserve nothing else.

I came up with a few scenarios in which I would make my exit and how I would make it. I made my boundaries clear in MY OWN MIND and drew some hard lines. For examples

Any deleted or out of bounds texts with males I dont know..I'm out.
Too Much contact with males I don't know...I'm out
Any discoveries (lies) about the A that she hasn't already disclosed...I'm out
ANYTHING of a duplicitous nature in regards to a male....I'm out

I also set up a plan, unknown to WW, where I have set aside a fund for immediate separation, credit accounts to begin a new life immediately, and I have chosen a lawyer that I have a good rapport with.

If any of the lines are crossed I am going the immediate route of separation and D.

While it may seem over the top, it has allowed me to take back control of MY life. If she is to be a part of my life, this can never ever happen again. If she shows herself trustworthy, then great. If not I am prepared.

This quote from HikingOut expresses a lot.

And so it was a process of shoring up my life that was less inclined towards needing to have him in it. Without the need I was left with the want. And when you want something rather than needing it, then you can feel empowered.

In empowering myself, I bought a semblance of peace into my own heart.

I don’t like the word codependence but when you describe how much you put into the relationship and how little he did (not altogether unusual for a BS:WS dynamic)and how little he still is doing, I have to question you being so focused on him still, I guess I’m asking about the purpose of that focus, because ultimately you are responsible for your happiness. I hear how much resentment you are holding and wonder how that is going to be discharged, especially as he is doing little to make amends. Are you able to defocus from him and back onto you? It’s about reassuring yourself that you can cope, you will cope and you will be okay with or without him.

Whilst the others are right re hyper vigilant planning as a trauma response, there can also be the problem of being slightly addicted to the raised adrenaline/ cortisol levels as well so it becomes a bit of a loop operation, thoughts stimulating the sympathetic nervous system into hyoerarousal and the hyperaroused system triggering the thoughts. Try breaking out of the loop, and bringing the body back into a more calm state with breathing and grounding exercises, yoga, little breaks in nature, singing, dancing, drawing….just even a 5 minute anxiety circuit breaking moment can help so needn’t be onerous, but gives you a way of doing many daily tweaks to strengthen yourself and defocus again from something you can’t control or change (what he gets up to) It’s kind of like a BS ninja recovery training, building up your resources again. As for the resentment, how are you going to deal with that?

To clarify, is your husband exchanging numbers with women, despite your wishes?

I appreciate everyone telling me that what I am feeling is not victim mentality. I really thought it was abnormal to be thinking like this.

I'm going to do as sugested and keep working on my healing and having an "exit plan" in case my boundaries are crossed, or any type of cheating/betrayal/etc. happen again so I know that I will be OK either way. It seems like a wise thing to do that will set my mind at ease in at least one way.

As for creating an account in only by name, question, would that not be considered marital assets and he would be entitled to half of it? Also, is it considered unhealthy to keep this a secret? Here's the thing, there was a TikTok video that went viral where a man found his SAHW had been keeping such an account in her name only that he did not know about. I believe it had about $10,000 in it when he learned of it. He accused her of "stealing" his money and WH agreed with that assessment, going on and on about how it was underhanded and meant that she was just waiting to leave him. She only said that it was "just in case". I agreed with her, I mean, look at my situation, and so many other's on here. SAHM's are screwed in divorces. But I feel that if I tell him that this is something I want to do, he's going to say the same thing, that I'm just trying to save up enough money to leave him. How to navigate this?

If instead of you, it was HIM that was zealously guarding your marriage, I think you may eventually start feeling differently. If you could trust him to be careful, I don't think you would feel as much need to.

I agree so much with this! Unfortunately, I still feel that he will do what he wants just because he wants to. I don't mean to say that because he'll want to have conversations with co-workers, but because if asked, he won't want to explain why he can't/won't give his number. I think he would rather just give it and not tell me, to avoid the uncomfortableness of telling anyone why he declines to give his number, especially if it's only to women.

As far as I know, he has not given out his number since the last time we had this conversation. At that time, he admitted that my asking for this boundary was a consequence of his actions, and not because I'm trying to be controlling. But I did wonder if he only said that because he didn't want me to be angry anymore and not because he really meant it.

I have not seen any red flags in this department, but I suppose y'all are right in that my scenarios can prepare me for if those things happen. I won't be blindsided again. Such a sad consequence of infidelity.

The only answer is the hardest one really: focus on your own healing. Besides the scenarios you run through your head, what else have you done to prepare for any eventuality? IC for mental health? Nutrition and exercise for physical health? Connecting with others that bring you joy? A bank account with your name only in case you need it? A consultation with an attorney to see what separation or divorce might look like?

I am still in IC, I go every 3 weeks and it seems like a good time frame for me. I'm diabetic so I have to be pretty strict with what I eat and drink. I'm keeping it under control, but some days I wish I could DRINK! Yes, I know it isn't healthy, sadly though, I'm an emotional eater, and unlike others after finding out, I didn't lose weight, I gained it But, I'm better now and trying to stay healthy. I do daily walks, but that's about it. My motivation for exercising is nil to none. I don't have a bank account, but like I said above, I'm seriously thinking about it. I have not seen an attorney, but I very much wish to. This is something I have procrastinated about heavily! I know most people say that the outcome is never as dire as we think it will be after a separation or divorce.

hikingout

Thank you for your advice on trying to lessen the negativity train. I journaled a ton in the beginning but have since tapered off. I'll pick it up again and incorporate what you suggested. Fingers crossed, because I have lost so many nights sleep over this, ugh! Most importantly, it helps to know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and I'm not alone in this. Plus it helps to share with other people that know exactly what I'm going through and understand me in this way. Though I wish none of us were here at all!

Edie

Thank you for your insight. I never thought of myself as co-dependent, but it's something to look at. I suppose I spent decades putting WH in the center of my universe (catering to his wants/needs to the detriment of my own) that it's taking a LOT to let go and unpack. In fact, the biggest change to our relationship came because I began to take care of myself and started doing things I enjoyed for me and only me. I tried to share those things with him but he wasn't interested. I began to grow and yes, change, but for me it was in a good way. For him, that meant the I was growing away from him, because he was no longer the priority over everything else for me. I guess that's when he started to feel sorry for himself, the whole "poor me" thing. And of course, blamed me for his unhappiness because I wasn't meeting his needs! I still sometimes put his feelings over mine because I don't want to make him mad, and then I hate myself for it because I'm supposed to be standing up for myself and pushing back on his bullshit! It's a work in progress for sure. I spend a lot of time in therapy over this. But, I think I am going to start focusing on just me and my health, outside of the relationship. I had started to do this, then got sucked back into trying to push him to do more. Co-dependent? Hmm, I guess I better take a look at that, I'll bring it up in therapy for sure.

To clarify, is your husband exchanging numbers with women, despite your wishes?

As I said earlier, not that I know of. He did it last year while he was at training in another state and then tried to hide it when we were driving home after visiting our daughter out of state. It was a pretty bad blowup from me, I literally started looking for divorce lawyers because I was done! It wasn't that he did it, which was bad enough, it was that he didn't tell me he did it, and, he tried to hide it when messages began popping up in the chat! (it was a group chat with 3 other women in it and him. they set it up for the training, but it was cut short, that's why there were only 4 in the chat. Still, I thought it was so stupid because he said they set it up to text each other about class changes etc. Uh, they were all in the same class!

You're not being unreasonable for not trusting your husband to keep his word because he's broken it before. Further, your expectation in and of itself (not exchanging phone numbers with other women) is perfectly reasonable, too, given his history.

Cheaters lose the benefit of the doubt, a fact that must be hard for both the BS and the WS to live with, if they remain married to each other.

It doesn't matter if he never intends on "crossing the line" again. If he's committed to you and the survival of your marriage, he should avoid going anywhere near the line.

fournlau:

As for creating an account in only by name, question, would that not be considered marital assets and he would be entitled to half of it?

If the account is funded by money earned during the marriage, regardless of which one of you earned it, it will most likely be considered a marital asset. In most states, I believe, if you were to receive a gift (to you only, and not to both of you), say from your parents, and that is what you use to fund the account, it will likely remain your property and not a marital asset. Interest earned on the account funded by the gift, though, might be considered a marital asset.

fournlau:

I don't have a bank account, but like I said above, I'm seriously thinking about it.

EVERYONE should have their own bank account. By saying you have no account, do you mean you don't even have a joint bank account with him? You should always have a few weeks living money put aside somewhere you can access it in case something happened to him blocking your access to the usual sources of money to pay bills. You might use this as the reason you want your own account, rather than hiding it.

We all have to give up some wants in order to be in a partnership, but I think you stifle yourself a lot more than you need to. I think you do that because you don't see your value as a human being and as a partner.

What have you done to see yourself as valuable as you really are? What have you done to bring up your self-esteem?

I can easily be wrong, but I read this thread to say you're not loving yourself the way you need and deserve. If that's accurate, (re)building your self-esteem and self-love will resolve your uncertainty.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 6:37 PM, Friday, February 2nd]

The only income coming into the house is from WH, so yeah, it would be marital funds going into the account. Still, half of something is better than nothing I suppose. I'll have to consider how to bring this up. I know he'll get defensive, but nothing new about that.

sisoon

Absolutely! Nail on the head! I've always had self-esteem issues. Beginning with my mother and her constant need to tell me I was overweight, needed to lose weight, would never find a man to marry me if I didn't lose weight (you get the picture). This continued with other people as well, then with WH who would say things like "I just want you to be healthy", which I heard as, "you need to lose weight". I'm not sure if I went over this already, but after Panama (story in my bio), he told me that he had talked to his female co-workers and they all agreed with him that he had every right to ask me to lose weight and that I wasn't a good wife if I didn't. I was humiliated (yes, I know I should have D'd him then, but I was young and scared). I held on to that and many more instances of not such in your face weight statements, but I knew what they meant. He has since told me he never meant to imply I needed to lose weight, just that he wanted me to "be healthy"

Anyway, all that to say that no, I do not have a good body image of myself, even when I was under 130lbs, I saw a fat person in the mirror. And if I was fat, I wasn't worthy. I do like myself, very much so. I can go on and on about what a good person I am and many amazing qualities I have (My proudest is that I am a good mom), but, no, I don't LOVE myself and I know that is a HUGE problem. It's one I am working on in therapy, though relationship shit often gets in the way.

Next appointment however I think I'm going to ask that we put aside the relationship and focus on me and my continuing healing journey.

Next appointment however I think I'm going to ask that we put aside the relationship and focus on me and my continuing healing journey.

What a great decision!

I did as I said I would and focused on healing my FOO/self-esteem issues in therapy. I let my IC know that it is what I want to continue to focus on as opposed to my relationship with WH. I can't control what he does and so I need to make sure I protect myself. Unfortunately, delving into my self-esteem issues and dredging up all that locked away pain really did a number on me.

I haven't slept well with surfacing memories and feelings that I just shoved down so as not to upset anyone! I mean, I knew these things already (how I often felt like an afterthought, how it was always about my older brother before me, etc.). I always felt that my parents loved me, but there was emotional neglect there for sure. My mother told me that I was the responsible one so they didn't worry about me as much as they worried about my brother. I suppose she thought that was a compliment.

Her words (especially about my weight), went from her to my head and before too long, she didn't have to say anything, I heard them in my head all on my own. And others added to it (cruel boys). You have to understand that I grew up in a very small town where everyone knew everyone. There were less than 25 people in my graduating class, so most of us grew up together.

Once I left home (went into the military) I got so much attention and didn't know how to handle it. I retreated into the comfort of my weight being an issue. There were things WH said to me as well that triggered those thoughts and memories. After Panama (when I believe he was trying to get me to leave him so he wouldn't be the bad guy) he would poke me about my weight, which only made me eat more since I'm an emotional eater. But even after that, he would make certain comments that I took to mean he wanted me to lose weight. This might have been true, or it might have been my perception because of those voices in my head.

Needles to say, it's been challenging to really look at those memories and try to detach from the pain and try to see myself in a more favorable light. WH asked why I was so tired and I told him about what I was focusing on, and the sleepless nights it had given me because of the surfacing memories and feelings. He said nothing and just changed the subject. EQ at pretty much zero

I don't know how people do it. How they love themselves when the world tells them they aren't worthy! That they never were! That if you don't look like a swimsuit model as a woman, you are worthless! IDK, I feel like I'm in a lifelong battle and I'm ill equipped to win. Surprisingly, my aging and looking my age doesn't bother me like my weight does. Interesting.