SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Sorry for the 2 topics today, but these are separate things I’m struggling with today.

My H came to me last week about not feeling like a team, that our long term goals don’t feel aligned and like we don’t have a bigger mission in our M for the future. He said that it doesn’t just have to be things going his way. Which was really surprising coming from him.

It hit me that I don’t feel comfortable sharing with him my deeper wants and desires for our life together. That I don’t trust him with that information. That sharing that would give him the power to devastate me all over again as he did with the vasectomy all those years ago.

I have a hard time believing he truly wants to take my desires into consideration from the time early in our M when we over reached so often in our finances and we were in foreclosure and having power shut off. Then the vasectomy. I wanted more kids and wanted to follow our faith (Catholic) in being open to life. I became Catholic and sacrificed my relationship with my family for the faith and we went through the whole RCIA process together, even though H was a cradle catholic and already confirmed.

I sacrificed and risked a lot following in the faith and felt he destroyed that with the withholding of all physical touch and affection that year I was pregnant with DD and the 9 or so months after her birth before he got the vasectomy.

I was so clear on not wanting a house we couldn’t afford, a car we couldn’t afford (Mustang got repoed) and dead serious in following our faith in our M the way we both agreed to when we said our vows.

After all that, my deepest hopes and dreams shared with him for faith and family, my deepest needs for security financially and in our home expressed… his decisions and my enablement… how do I take steps to open up again? I haven’t really dared to dream much further than planning the next month or so, and that mainly around what the kids, family and work need from me. And what H and I are going to do for outings and companionship. I don’t trust myself to hope for deeper renewal in our M.

I don’t trust H to actually put his money where his mouth is on not having to have everything in our future life go his way. We struggle to decorate the house together to his satisfaction even. It’s so uncomfortable for him when we decorate to my liking that he struggles to relax and has built an entire basement to his satisfaction and own peculiar liking just to have an area totally to his own liking to relax in. I take his desires into consideration and seek his advice on everything I do in the decor. But… I like color and pattern and having decorative objects around and my grandmas quilt on the couch because seeing it reminds me of her and brings me comfort. H hates the multiple colored squares on it because it’s not strictly blue or white like the rest of the room.

How can we plan a life together where he can take joy and comfort in my satisfaction? It’s almost like I need to see him actually get off his ass and reverse the damn vasectomy before I can have security trusting him that he really means what he says. That my heart and our relationship with God actually physically matters to him again. That our M may actually have a snowballs chance in hell of having a Lazarus resurrection.

H has made enormous effort in the finances and we are doing much better now. H has stayed even with my A. H has severely limited contact with his "friend" J and keeps an open window into their friendship and genuinely seeks my opinion on things she tells him. He doesn’t see her alone or hardly ever.

H is still not divorcing me even though I have to go into work 3 days a week on the same campus and building as my fAP. This has been gone over as nauseum on this site, with the financial shenanigans and HR action, several job moves and campus move I made, and EA’s of my H, I’ve done all that I can honestly do and remain honest and unresentful if I’m going to remain in the M in regards to my work situation.

I feel like it’s all a big game of chicken and we are waiting for the other to blink.

Oh and reversing the vasectomy wouldn’t likely result in an unplanned pregnancy. I’m in menopause and on birth control now to control hot flashes, brain fog and intense labor like cramping and bleeding. At the ripe age of 40. I wanted more kids and haven’t had an ovulating cycle in 5 months now- even before the hormones. That door of fertility is closed and I have been mourning the loss. Now H is struggling with that too as he wants another baby himself. He knew going into the M that women in my family go through menopause early- we are done by 45. His actions have punished him indeed. At this point, if we do want more kids, it’s going to be adoption.

This is a brain dump. Thanks for hanging with me if you read this far.

What helped you to move forward with R and rebuilding when your M had struggles?

I'm in a different sitch. My W keeps complaining that I don't share enough of what's going on in me, but we both believe we are together on values, wanting to be together, anything else important. Hell, the best suggestion for solving my W's problem came from me this time. I'm proud of that, now that I think of it.

To R, I think you have to take the risk of sharing some of your inner self. Maybe you can start with one area of concern and see how he responds. Maybe start with, 'You're right - we're not a team. I'm afraid to share my inner self because it hasn't gone well in the past. Will you just listen to me without judging?'

Or maybe, 'Based on decorating the house or your clothes, I don't hear you saying, 'I want to be teammates.' I hear you saying 'I want you to be what I want you to be.' Will you acknowledge that I can be only myself?'

I continue to think you stifle yourself. Even if I'm right about that, I don't know any way to stop except to stop. I know it's much easier to say, 'Stop stifling yourself' than to do it.

Look: right now you're holding back your core self. That's not sustainable in a good M. You deserve more. You owe more to your partner and to yourself. You can get more from your partner and yourself. But maybe not this particular partner....

I think your best bet is to risk finding out you and your H are a bad fit. Alas, I don't have any objection to D, and you have a faith objection.

If you aren't willing to risk finding out you'd be better off not M to your H (and that could be a very valid choice), what do you propose instead?

[This message edited by SI Staff at 8:25 PM, Wednesday, February 7th]

MIgander,

You've been missed.

sisoon, as always, has given you some sage advice--especially about taking a small risk by acknowledging the struggle and sharing a bit of your inner self.

Some of the "easier" stuff (different decorating tastes) can usually be resolved through compromise. Yet, I DO get that the decorating symbolizes something larger about empathy and selflessness.

Maybe you find a big, beautiful basket to put next to the coach to keep that gorgeous quilt in. Maybe it's an open basket to keep the quilt on display, but in a way that doesn't put it front and center on the couch.

Maybe you have some deeper discussions about how you both see "owned objects" (the quilt, the Mustang...). What is the emotional pull to these types of objects? What purpose are they serving in your mind, your emotions, your life? Is there a cost (emotionally, stress-wise, etc.) to having these objects or to not having them?

I'm only suggesting discussion around this because there seems to be long-standing strife about objects, finances, and decorating that might be resolved through heart-felt discussion.

For me, when I have to articulate why something matters to me and what purpose it serves, there are often lightbulb moments for myself in that process of verbalizing my thoughts. It also provides for some reflection on the cost/benefit side of things. Finally, it creates more understanding between partners.

On the work side of things:

I don’t trust H to actually put his money where his mouth is on not having to have everything in our future life go his way

Perhaps have some discussions where you ask him to think of ways he can demonstrate that very thing. Once he has concrete ideas, ask him to set firm goals (with timelines) to hold himself accountable for putting idea into action.

As we all know, the proof is in the action.

Thanks for the update, MIgander!

What I’m seeing are little power struggles. Some are overt - like the decorating stuff that the two of you do in the open. Others are covert - like when he went and got the vasectomy in secret, and you had an affair in secret, and he has a friend he keeps kind of secret. Power struggles.

The problem in the marriage isn’t being talked about. Instead, the two of you go about fighting around things by using other means.

It seems to me like it would better be addressed if the two of you sat with a therapist and really got to talking about the issues, and not about quilts.

His desire to work as a team is the beginning of that conversation. It would be a good idea to really get that opened up and begin there.

[This message edited by 5Decades at 1:32 AM, Thursday, February 8th]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I'm going to respond by breaking it down bit by bit, so have patience with me, please .

Sisoon:

To R, I think you have to take the risk of sharing some of your inner self. Maybe you can start with one area of concern and see how he responds. Maybe start with, 'You're right - we're not a team. I'm afraid to share my inner self because it hasn't gone well in the past. Will you just listen to me without judging?'

Or maybe, 'Based on decorating the house or your clothes, I don't hear you saying, 'I want to be teammates.' I hear you saying 'I want you to be what I want you to be.' Will you acknowledge that I can be only myself?'

This is precisely the work that I'm doing right now. The EMDR is getting rid of the whole, "I don't deserve to be treated well," and "I don't deserve to belong to any tribe." Having those beliefs reprocessed in me and having alternatives replaced in me, like: "I deserve kindness and respect," and "I can belong and do belong." All that's shaken loose a lot of ignored/repressed anger and shrinking of myself. Since I've been reprocessing and beginning to really believe at a core level that I deserve good treatment and that I do belong in a "tribe" as myself, I'm allowing myself to be more authentic in other areas of my life. Like work, and with the kids and with my friends. The lower risk areas. Hah, look at me being so BRAVE . I'm wanting to dip my toe in the water of doing this in my M too. To that end, I've been trying more assertiveness- with better and worse success. My other thread is about a bit of poorly timed assertiveness and we can discuss that there.

A different example of me being more myself and more assertive is the way I handled planning an eclipse viewing. We're in SE MI and it's not a far drive to OH to see the totality. H wanted to go to Cleveland, get hotel the night before and after the eclipse and do viewing parties, lunches, dinners and a concert. And maybe or maybe not bring the kids. This is $$$$$- and we're staring down the barrel of increased tuition for my son's HS next year. (We've got that handled already, it just means bonuses won't be for fun/saving/catchup anymore- but also means cashflow won't be impacted by his extra tuition $$).

I on the other hand, don't see the point of going to Cleveland (no offense Clevelanders, I've heard it's really nice now!) for a 20min eclipse and spend $1k on it. I told him that and suggested we go to a different town with an air and space museum, tail gate at their party (the museum is open, there's food trucks, bathroom facilities and parking included). That we bring the kids and make a day of it. H expressed that he has anxiety over driving and being on time for the eclipse and it's a long day for him. I told him that I appreciated his concerns, and really do understand. However, with the eclipse happening in the afternoon, that gives us all morning to get down there. And, I really cannot see the prudence of accommodating his anxiety to the tune of an extra $1k on our budget for a trip to Cleveland that we wouldn't otherwise be interested in.

H was unhappy, said he doesn't feel close to me because he really just wants a wife who will be enthusiastic in his interests. That I can go ahead and make plans, but he won't be participating then because he has high standards and won't enjoy it. I said that's fine, that the kids and I will go together and he's welcome to join us if he'd like. He said that he'd see if some of his work friends would go with him instead to Cleveland for his trip instead. I said he's welcome to do that if he can make it work without a big expense, but that I would be going to the air and space museum with the kids. I allowed him space for his mood and was at peace with it.

Before all this work, I would have been panicked and done all I could to appease him and bent over backwards to make the Cleveland trip work. Not any more . H had time to come around and has asked a question or two showing a little interest in the trip I'm planning. No more mention of Cleveland. And life goes on...

All this to say, I'm testing the waters and now questioning why I bent over backwards for H and violated my deeper self so many times in our M. That, as they say, you teach people how to treat you, that I had denied H growth opportunity by making myself smaller (and more resentful and more unlikeable). I've actually done him a disservice by not giving him opportunity to grow into a less self-interested person. To have the opportunity to practice taking joy in others' happiness. The kids have allowed him that in the area of parenting, but I've denied him that in the area of marriage. And it shows in his continued immature views on what makes for an ideal partner- one who will mirror back his every enthusiasm by enabling his every want.

Welp, that's going to have to change- to your very point. I'm finding I'm allowing myself to accept that others are at times going to have to make themselves a bit uncomfortable for my sake. H planned an awesome bday party for me, complete with cake, margaritas, Mexican food and a bunch of my friends. I was lovely!! BUT- he put a lot of effort into it- as did the kids- cleaning, arranging and cooking. Old me would have felt guilty and ashamed of putting others to that level of effort for my sake alone. New me allowed myself to enjoy it, feel like I deserved it, and now I'm finding myself HAPPIER and more able to be THANKFUL and SINCERE in my appreciation. I think, putting H through the exercise of discomfort for the others' sake yielded him the benefit of a more likeable wife .

ACK. I have a work meeting soon I have to prep for. Thanks everyone for hanging in there- I'll get back to you later!!

Very moving post, MIgander.

*****

I've stressed the downside risk to your M of being yourself. I almost forgot that there's an upside, too. You may find that your H likes the real you much more than he likes his image of what he thinks he wants you to be.

The more my W expresses her wants, the better I like her. I say 'yes' a lot more than she thought I would. I don't think she says 'yes' more than I thought she would, but there's a big difference between a co-dependent 'yes' and a 'yes' that comes from free choice. There's a big difference between a co-d 'yes' and negotiating something that pleases both of us. And I don't see how both of us can be pleased unless we both say what we want.

*****

A late 'Happy birthday' to you. I'm glad you enjoyed the day.

Bump by request.

Long time, no update.

Well, we went to OH for the eclipse, did the cheaper town option and it worked out great! The drive home was lonnnnnng... but worth it . And within a good budget too. H said he enjoyed it (except the driving) and that it was worth it. Kids were happy too. We did get grumpy with each other- but that turned out to be hangry as we had a later lunch, so easily fixed. The corona was indescribably beautiful. Breathtaking. I hope everyone gets a chance at some point in their life to experience something as beautiful as that in nature.

Can someone please do me the great favor of reading this and confirming I'm on a good track here?

H and I are doing better and worse by turns. Progress has been made on his side with taking accountability for hurts caused when we were dating and during the M. We had a big argument yesterday- he kept referencing conversations he's been having with J- a LOT more than usual- during our trip to OH for the eclipse. It came down for me to his using snapchat to talk with her and how my trust with him is low. He mentioned in the first year they were working together (before my A) that she asked a mutual friend if H would ever date her. RED FRICKING FLAG . It mirrored nearly exactly his inappropriate friendship with "L" in college. I'm not going to detail that here, she basically offered him a BJ before we dated while he dated a previous GF and he would share stuff about our relationship with her while lying in her bed... I told him that, "Looking back, if I was as strong then as I am now, I would have told you to choose between me or L and left for home the next day. (We were in Boston and he left me alone with a vomiting friend of his to get more drinks at the bar with L.)" That opened his eyes.

As a result of the long discussion and much back and forth, he's has removed snapchat and deactivate his account. We will see. I told him very clearly that, "I have a hard time trusting you at your word. I've been open with you about just how important it is to me that you delete snapchat and deactivate your account and stop talking to J." I also reiterated this morning how inappropriate the friendship is because she wanted to date him. He took exception saying, "it's not sexual like that" about his friendship with her. I called bs on that since J has shown to be one of those people who use and get used for things like attention and purses.

Going back to the whole rings thing too- I brought up how it's upsetting that over a year before our A, there was a coworker who contemplated her chances with him dating her. To me that implies that she either picked up that he was A. not married or B. not happy about his M. That with the no-ring-wearing... yeah. Definitely had some WS tendencies going on there. Takes one (fWS) to know one...

I think he's finally getting it on this one. Still he's upset and feels pressured into it and doesn't like that. He has deleted snapchat as of right now. I'm going to sit back and see where it goes and see if he follows through with not communicating with her.

One thing we were discussing was "trauma" vs "baggage." Like, trauma is something that happened to you that you're working on and are looking for help in dealing with. Like, trauma from my childhood, his trauma from my A. Then baggage being something you're not getting rid of- holding on to. Like, is baggage like a scar that you will carry forever, or is it a choice you cling to as a defense against further pain? I imagine it like being surrounded by so much clutter that you're walled off from being hurt. And walled off from interacting meaningfully with anyone...

Really though, I think trauma becomes baggage when a person refuses to work on the pain. Like they choose to hold on to it and use it as a shield. I do this, and I know H does this.

During our argument we went over how we don't have a close sense of "us" and "we" still. This is despite us doing many things together, having much clearer communication and being increasingly open about our feelings and expectations. I think that H is still working through some baggage related to my A, as he's unable to take an impartial look at the good that is present in the M right now. At one point, I told him I feel he's missing out. H responded, "I'm not missing out- I'm going and doing things myself and not waiting on you any more." I then pointed out that he's missing out on being with me and being part of an us. He grew quiet after that and said, "yes, I do miss us being an us."

This morning, we were arguing about a friendship of mine and a business trip I may be taking next month. The guy I'm friends with -call him SM- (and friends with his wife and H has met him several times at church- they go to our church) works at a company that I'm partnering in a project with for my work. I have a business trip to a conference next month (still need $$ approval for the travel- budget is tight) where I will be presenting a paper we co-authored and where SM will also be attending. I'm afraid SM likes my conversation more than he might like his wife's. She's very busy with their 5 kids and daughter competing in a national level travel sport. I have put up walls (per "Not Just Friends") around my M with H and share the positive things I like about H and what H and I do on the weekend with SM. SM knows only the good stuff about H and what we like to do for date night and how much I enjoy H's parenting and how proud I am of H's hard work in his career. I DO NOT share my M struggles with SM. He likewise doesn't share anything negative beyond how busy having 5 kids and working to support a family can get. He has expressed to me that he wishes he had more "date nights" with his wife and hopes that they can enjoy that once their younger ones can be left home long enough for them to grab a dinner out. We have a lot in common in terms of engineering interests, church and family life raising kids of similar ages- all things we talk about.

Thing is, conversation with SM flows easily- he's a very chatty outgoing person. His manner of speaking to me and to H are the same- I study it carefully when we meet in church. However, when H and I are arguing, H has told me he's jealous that my conversation with SM seems easier than it does with H. I'm scarred from being on the other side of a spouse having a friendship with a member of the opposite sex where conversation is going easier for friends than for the couple. Especially since I was the W who the H was comparing to the friend. I'm afraid that SM would even START to compare his W negatively to me. I have no sign of that happening, but it's something that I'm sensitive to since I've been on the other end of that equation. SM's comment about wanting more time out for "date nights" with his W is the only negative thing he's shared about their M. Still, with all that I've done and experienced, I'm unsure if that's a "yellow" flag or a "red" flag. I know what it's like from first hand experience to be uncomfortable with a spouse's close friendship of the opposite sex. AND I'm sensitive to H's sensitivity around my friendship with SM. Really, I see SM as a cousin and not a threat to our M had we not had all the EA/A baggage in our past. BUT... baggage we have and must deal with. So, I'm asking: am I seeing a caution light or a stop light on the friendship? Either way, I plan to pull back because H is uncomfortable.

H is not comfortable with me going on a business trip to the same conference with SM. H doesn't want me going on the trip at all and feels I choose my work over the M on a regular basis. Logically, that is not the case. I put our family and our M ahead of work quite often. I make sure to leave early for the kids and take time off for time alone with H on a regular basis.
My theory is that H has baggage around a spouse working as his dad was largely absent when he was a kid, climbing the corporate ladder. I think H's "trauma" has become "baggage" because logically, I need to work and do work well for the benefit of him, our family and our M (I refuse to make choices that will build my later resentment- a major thing that led to my A). H claims I don't need to travel for my work as I've so seldomly done it since covid. I told him that in order for me to feel like I'm doing the work my company is paying me for (and maintain professional integrity), I need to go on this trip. It's to a conference for specialists in my area where I will be presenting and giving a keynote round table discussion at the start of the conference. It's a big honor for me, a boost in industry visibility for my company and for the project I have been working on for the past 4 years.

H wants to equate this conference and friendship with SM to his relationship with J. That emotionally, for him, the conference is as painful to him as his friendship with J is to me. H wants me to act on his emotional pain in the same way he is being asked to act on his friendship with J. That I cut off the conference as he is being asked to cut out J. The conference (work) is not in the same boat on a LOGICAL level. AT ALL. Work pays the bills, allows him and the family to enjoy material privileges and comforts. H's friendship with a sketchy person (drug addict- weed, alcohol and shrooms, helped break up her current BF's M) like J affords none of that. I'm struggling with this as LOGICALLY, work friendship with someone who has not demonstrated questionable morals and the work conference is not the same as a personal friendship with someone who has demonstrated questionable morals.

The friendship with SM is something that I can pull back from for the peace of mind of H. I can also not engage outside of conference hours with him and plan on dinners with other colleagues instead of him and keep my distance. I'm looking into bringing H with me so we can spend time together in a fun city after hours. However, if H can't come with me, I still plan on going alone and sticking to the plan of not spending time outside of conference hours in the company of SM.

Hi Migander,

I think you are right to pull back from your friendship with SM. (1) It makes your husband (appropriately) uncomfortable - if my fwh was developing a friendship with another woman that he got along with really well, I'd be worried too. (2) You are getting vibes from him that suggest that maybe he's not able to have appropriate boundaries in place with you - listen to those red flags; and (3) Walk the walk. You are uncomfortable with the relationship with J and we all agree that he should pull back from it. So treat him the way you want to be treated. That's how relationships should work.

Stop over-intellectualizing it. Its simple.

With regards to your original post - I agree with Sisoon that if you want to be in this marriage then you need to work on vulnerability with him. I get why that is scary for you both - truly. I know your story. But it truly is the only way you're going to get the marriage you want.

Thanks for the help Emergent! Yes, I will pull back from the friendship with SM. It's already something I'm doing. I like all that you said about walking the walk. I've had a mantra in my head- it's from Mother Theresa's poem she's known for- the "do it anyway." IE: don't let how other people are treating you affect your decisions- do the right thing anyway. I could do a tit for tat thing and say, "unless you get rid of J, I'm not pulling away from SM." BUT- the right thing is to pull back from SM, so I'll do it anyway

And yes, me being very open with H about his "relationship" with J and my deep seated need for him to get rid of snapchat are very much part of the vulnerability work I'm doing. H will either decide he likes the real, open, honest me- or not. I'm going to keep being more open anyway. Which is terrifying

Wow. I disagree with emergent, and I don't remember doing that before.

I think SM may be a red, yellow, or green flag with SM. It's worth clarifying, but it may be something benign - I've often found myself spilling something to friends that my W needed to know, but then I told her at the next opportunity. OTOH, I don't know what having 5 kids does to life, but I expect they make date nights fewer than with only one kid. If he feels entitled to more and is sounding you out, red flag. If he said it because he's looking forward to the future when his W will presumably have more free time, my bet is that the flag is green.

I see your H's desire for you to skip the trip, your presentation, your leading a discussion as a big red flag. I can understand his being scared by your success.

But he's asking you to end your friendship with SM and to cut down on your professional accomplishment because they make him feel uncomfortable is the problem whether or not it's better for you to cut out SM and cut down on your accomplishments at work.

SM & job are not comparable to J. He pretty clearly had an EA with J. You're not having an EA with SM. Your job certainly does take you away from your family ... but how much accomplishment is OK with your H? And is it realistic for you to stifle yourself. Why doesn't he stifle himself?

I don’t trust H to actually put his money where his mouth is on not having to have everything in our future life go his way.

Given his wishes with regard to SM, your job, and J, I get that.

I think you need to communicate with each other to define the M that will serve you both, if possible. That's the best, and maybe the only, approach that will prevent both of you selling yourselves out without D or other separation, IMO.

Note that it doesn't have to be your way or his. In talking with each other, you might think of a new way that provides more pleasure than your way or his provide.

I understand that failing to craft an M that serves you both is very scary for someone highly committed to the Catholic faith. But letting fear keep you from talking is even worse, because talking may get you what you want. Not talking just keeps you in fear.

Again, I understand the fear that comes with a professionally successful W. I experienced it. But that was my problem to solve. Your H seems to be experiencing it; that's his problem to solve.

In the end, it wasn't my W's success that enabled her to cheat....

Hmmm... I disagree with sisoon, which I do not often.

Take J out of the equation. Just for a minute.

You had an affair with a work colleague. You are getting close to another work colleague. You are still working near that previous AP and consider your job to be too important to quit. As your BS, I would have concerns with your new work friendship with a male work colleague. Of course I would. You're not crossing boundaries according to your description, but you are awful chatty and friendly with outside-of-work conversations. I'm saying this as a woman who worked in a male dominated field. And I'd be concerned about you going on a conference with this male colleague SM as your husband.

Your goals for the conference are such that you should never interact with SM. Right? You're looking to forward your career and company presence outside the company. Anti to being around SM and Pro to being around new colleagues.

If you want to be a partner in the marriage, seek out a few colleagues that are from potential companies you could work for and have a better job. Go to their talks/seminars and meet them. Don't have personal conversations. Talk business. That shows you care about you are on your husband's team.

Yet J is still part of the equation. As what? baggage? I don't like that term, and I don't like distinguishing trauma vs baggage, but ok. Is it ok for you to say you don't trust your husband's non-snapchat behavior or can he call that your baggage that you need to let go? Who gets to decide? This is what makes madhatter's affairs difficult. maybe? I don't know.

I agree with the person saying you are both having power struggles (big and small) and having trouble with vulnerability.

Edit: I would not have put an emoji there. Sorry. Keyboard error.

[This message edited by KitchenDepth5551 at 10:00 PM, Friday, April 12th]