SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

The decision to stay or go is so very hard!!!

But I know in my heart I don’t want my marriage to end, even though he shattered my heart into a million pieces.

It’s not just the life we created together but I do really love him. I also (unlike him) take my vows seriously. I also believe good people can make bad choices.

He is incredibly remorseful and trying to do all the right things ie working in his issues (communication skills, being honest and transparent etc), counselling, making me feel safe, being patient, and putting us all as his number 1 priority.

But I’m just so scared it’ll all be in vain. I read all about these 2nd or 3rd D-Days and I’m not sure I could handle this ever again, nor do I think I should.

Please someone tell me I’m not being completely stupid and that there is a good chance of R if he and we put in the work?

I just wanted to say I am in a similar boat to you. Young children together, husband had an affair also with a much younger work colleague and didn’t immediately end it, took about a month or more after I found out. I have similar feelings to you. I don’t think he will cheat again as the consequences were big but can I ever look at him in the same way again.

Is your husband still working with the ap? I found It very hard that he still was

[This message edited by Lemonpie at 12:14 PM, Monday, March 4th]

It's a gamble. It really is.

Sometimes they do all the right things. Mine did. He did the work. He was absolutely remorseful. I'm not a fool. I know what needed to be done,and he did it. He was the epitome of a remorseful spouse.

15 years later..he did it again.

The key is, if you stay, you need to work on yourself, so if he does it again, you are stronger, and able to make hard decisions.

I know that's not what you were wanting to hear. Many here will say if they do the work, the chances they cheat again are small. I'm not sure I believe that. It certainly wasn't the case with my ws. And, we see members returning, all the time, with the same story.

It's a gamble.

[This message edited by HellFire at 1:18 PM, Monday, March 4th]

Shirley Glass said that of the couples she treated in MC who said that they wanted to R, only 20% did not R. I was worried about being in the 20%. Our MC suggested that the 20% didn't do the work.

If you both do the work, my bet - I'm all in in my own M, in poker terms - is that you will R or that you will both conclude that you're not a good enough fit for each other to spend the rest of your lives together. Either outcome is win.

- or -

your WS won't do the work after all, and you'll dump him

- or -

you'll decide you don't really want him, even though he's doing the work, and you'll dump him

You can start R and then decide to D. It's a lot easier to change your mind from R to D than to D and then realize you wanted R.

Don't let fear drive you.

Have you read the post in the JFO (Just Found Out) forum about Before you Reconcile? I've just bumped them so they should be at the top of the page.

It might be too soon for you to know, and that's ok. You need to heal a bit first. In that time, you can watch your WH's actions.

For me, I gave myself 8 month increments. I needed a deadline so I didn't drift off onto Rugsweep Island. At about a year, I was able to see that my XWH wasn't really doing the work. Then, he said his IC said MC would be ok for us to start so it was about another 6 months before XWH crossed a hard boundary and we D.

What work do you need to see him do for you to offer the gift of R? Do you have any boundaries or consequences? You may want to start thinking about those.

This is entirely unscientific and based only on anecdotal evidence, but my opinion is that if both the WS and BS are capable of empathy and introspection, the odds of the WS becoming a safe partner, the odds of the BS being able to work through the pain, and the likelihood of a happy partnership are all much higher.

Authenticity and transparency are key. Sharing the hard truths in real time is paramount. The WS must be willing to be in the hot seat for a long, long time, and the BS should commit to being a benevolent truth-seeker. If you have to drag the truth out of the WS, or if they're trickle-truthing, lying about NC, wanting to rugsweep, etc that doesn't bode well.

I made a commitment to myself that I would not tolerate a second DDay, and I made a conscious decision, with the help of my MC, to extend some trust unless I found evidence that it was unwarranted. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, f*** you.

Only you can decide what's best for you. Unless there's a looming deadline of some sort, like a big move, the pressure to decide whether to stay or go is self-imposed. You don't have to decide anything right now. You can decide that your main work is to stay in the present. (I'm still working on that. It's a lifelong practice. )

You posted some very good questions.

Here’s my two cents based on my H having two affairs (with the last one including his plan to D me for the OW).

First, as others said, no guarantees. Never was and never will be 100% certain there won’t be another affair.

Second, you know the signs and the next time there is suspicious stuff going on, you know what to do or what you will do.

Third, to protect yourself you need a back up plan. An exit strategy. Ability to know if the day should come how you will handle the situation.

For me, I have $ in the bank and a legit post nup. I know where I would move to and how assets would be divided. Kids are grown and custody is not an issue.

Post affair I have my own social life that doesn’t include him. Just in case I’m ever single, it won’t be starting from scratch.

Having a plan will help you plan not just for a divorce but if your H cannot work due to illness etc.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 4:18 PM, Monday, March 4th]

Terrific advice from The1stWife.

I have a separate bank account with enough money to "bug out" if I ever need to. H can't touch it.

I've fostered strong relationships with girlfriends, found my own hobbies independent of him, and travel and the majority of my social life revolves around my girlfriends rather than him. We still greatly enjoy each other's company, but we both have our own separate lives. I no longer tag along when he goes to car stuff (because I hate it) and he no longer tags along when I do my stuff (he hates it.) It works great. We're happy and secure because we're strong independently.

Shirley Glass said that of the couples she treated in MC who said that they wanted to R, only 20% did not R.

Having never read the book..I wonder how she knows this? Did she interview those same people, one year, 5 years, 16 years, after dday? How does she know the ws didn't cheat again, and simply hid it better? Did all of the couples report back to her if they cheated again? Seems like there's a lot of room for error with this statistic.

You’re not stupid for trying to R and keep the marriage together. There is no shame in that. I am sure lot of people will disagree, but only you can decide what is right for you.

There are a lot of folks here who have had multiple ddays, myself included, but from the vast majority of what I read most of them are same Affair and some version of didn’t get full story or cheating spouse is still seeing AP etc. that’s what my dday 2 was. Not minimizing the significant amount of damage it caused, in fact the most issue I have in R is the double betrayal and keeping A going, I’m only saying that is the most common occurrence. Depending on what you have as far as full disclosure, location sharing, NC with AP etc you could expect another dday.

And, it shouldn’t matter if it does happen again. He either will or won’t, and there is nothing you can do to stop it. All you can do is protect yourself, know what
Behavior you will or won’t tolerate, and establish an exit plan so that you can take care of yourself no matter what.

Also, be honest with yourself. Love isn’t enough, and being cheated on is a massive betrayal that will impact you deeply. It’s always ok to say it’s too much, I don’t want this etc, even if you promised to R. I personally feel once the dday happens, all bets are off, and BS can end it anytime despite remorse or promises of R.

Also, be honest with yourself. Love isn’t enough, and being cheated on is a massive betrayal that will impact you deeply.

I was just about to say this, but HINHF beat me to it. I’ll add to it, this kind of stuff and his behavior now, it can kill love. The love that you felt was immortal and untouchable, that all assumed fidelity, it never enters our minds that we even need to consider that we won’t have that. But once that foundational assumption is destroyed, the structure of our love can fall. I’m not saying it will, just that it could. In my experience, I’ve proclaimed my love for my wife for almost 2 years here. But her behavior has worn me down and while I do love her, it has changed, I could easily see it dying, and it is nowhere near enough to keep me in the marriage now. Behavior needs to change, defensiveness, avoidance, the kind of stuff that got them into it and now exasperates your pain. They are corrosive, they will wear you down.

If you want your marriage to survive, I advise using this period of patience that you have and tell your husband that this is a calm before the storm. If he is serious and wants the marriage that he better be using this time to fix his shit, because a much angrier version of you is coming, one that is furious at the betrayal and disrespect.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 5:58 PM, Monday, March 4th]

I will agree with SS on this re empathy and introspection.

This is entirely unscientific and based only on anecdotal evidence, but my opinion is that if both the WS and BS are capable of empathy and introspection, the odds of the WS becoming a safe partner, the odds of the BS being able to work through the pain, and the likelihood of a happy partnership are all much higher.

One caveat here - or something to think about at least generally is - introspection can be learned and wholly embraced. Empathy is tougher - I KNOW I am far more empathetic than my WH, and he actually admits to using that against me during his A. My WH now after 4 years of pretty consistent IC is far more introspective than he used to be - like miles - but empathy - he still sucks. Not as badly, but his progress has not been the same. I would argue that is because introspection is still part of that narcissistic nature - the focus being on YOU not others (and we all have some level of narcissism and should have). Empathy isn't about you - it's about others - getting someone who falls very high on the narcissistic tendencies chart (as my WH does) to think about others, especially first...that is a much bigger ask. Maybe that is part of the reason why we are not fully reconciled and aren't on the path to doing so now?

I agree with this as well - and honestly it's the easiest part of the whole process to gauge:

Authenticity and transparency are key. Sharing the hard truths in real time is paramount. The WS must be willing to be in the hot seat for a long, long time, and the BS should commit to being a benevolent truth-seeker. If you have to drag the truth out of the WS, or if they're trickle-truthing, lying about NC, wanting to rugsweep, etc that doesn't bode well.

Don't beat yourself up too much. I made the same commitment as SS did to myself...and subsequently broke it (hence d-day 2 after an entire year of false R).

I made a commitment to myself that I would not tolerate a second DDay, and I made a conscious decision, with the help of my MC, to extend some trust unless I found evidence that it was unwarranted. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, f*** you.

To answer your question - I don't thing these is any answer anyone can give you.

I do not think successful R is wildly frequent - by my definition of successful anyway. I won't put a percentage on it and I will certainly not say it is impossible, but I don't think many WS or BS are willing to push through the long haul without sweeping at least some of their issues under the rug or otherwise move forward with some level of dissatisfaction with their marriage that wasn't there pre-A. I have not been capable of that myself - I just ran out of steam, which I think is what some people refer to as the "plain of lethal flatness" on this site. You as as the BS get to the point where you just are numb/feel like you don't care anymore even if your WS seems to be fully engaged and doing the "work." This could be because you really lost interest in them/see them as overtly flawed or you just have infidelity-exhaustion and just accept things for what they are after a time and either leave or go forward. Unfortunately I think for a lot of us we don't get to that place for a long time. In my own case I think by the time my WH pulled his head out and started wanting to change for him, it was too late for me - his flaws were burned on my brain, I had lost my sexual interest in him, and I didn't miss for or long for his touch like ever. I liked him as a person and still wanted (do want) him as a friend, but the rest, it may be too late to address - and I'm roughly 5-6 years out from the last d-day (d-day 3).

Don't beat yourself up too much. I made the same commitment as SS did to myself...and subsequently broke it (hence d-day 2 after an entire year of false R).

Just like anything else, you absolutely never know what you'll do until you're the one wearing the shoes. I can confidently say that I wouldn't tolerate a new DDay, but I also confidently said that I wouldn't stay in the first place if I ever found out that my H was cheating. We can't know until we're actually tested.

I'm old now, though, with no kids to consider, and my bullshit tolerance level is running low. After 20 years of recovery (and I think one is always in some level of recovery after infidelity, much like an addict) I'm 99% confident that a relapse would send me packing. I often dream of a quiet little cabin in the woods with no one else's needs to consider. And I have girlfriends who talk seriously about a womens' tiny home commune. FAFO. lol

It's extremely difficult early on. I think ultimately what you are deciding is not "to stay or go". It's to "attempt to R or not". Even you choose to attempt to R, there is a very real chance it won't work out. There is also the possibility that it will work out, as demonstrated by many members on this site that have R'd.

For me, I'm reconciled myself, but I also have given myself permanent permission to change my mind at any time. My vow isn't so much for life anymore. I'm comfortable with this uncertainty. In a way there is a balance to it. My wife destroyed the perception of permanence. If I'm going to be comfortable staying in a marriage with a proven liar that could choose to start lying again at any moment, she is going to have to be comfortable being in a marriage with a man that might decide he made a mistake trying to reconcile with her at any given point in time. I don't think she is going to cheat. I don't really think I'm just going to wake up on the wrong side of the bed and change my mind in a single day either. Things are actually pretty good in my M.

I don't think everyone manages their post-A marriage 2.0 this way, but I do.

I'm not saying it's the path you want, but I guess what I'm saying is, there will be a lot of uncertainty to live with when you choose to try to R. There will be permanent damage that you may or may not be able to actually live with. But if you and him both put in the work, yes I think it can work out.

Since "the work" is so generic, I'm going to paste in some words from my three year update (that is in the healing library):

You both have to do the work.
What it means: What is "the work"? This is a harder one to define in short, but it means a few things. For the BS, a lot of the work is unlearning societal beliefs about infidelity and what it happens. Really refusing to accept blame, but still be able to admit you could improve as a partner. Being able to separate the relationship from the affair is one of the heavy lifts for the BS. Another is understanding what you need to feel safe again. I think one of the biggest things that helps restore safety is "transference of vigilance". This is covered in a book "How Can I Forgive You" by Janis Spring which I wouldn't recommend right out of the gate, but maybe after you think you can let up on being the marriage police. All this takes time and effort for the BS to work through. I think another important part of "the work" for a BS is dealing with the permanent losses including "something integrity adjacent". You might no longer be really proud of your marriage, but after your work you will certainly be proud of your contributions to the marriage. And if you think about it, if it takes two people to have a good marriage, you can't possibly hold yourself responsible for the other person's half. You need to own your half though.

For the WS, the hardest work is driving down into the "why?" of the A. Not the surface level, blame shifting "why". The internal machinations that they used to give themself permission to cheat. What is that thought process? How is it flawed? Are there FOO issues or trauma issues that led to that type of decision-making? How will you identify when you are in that thought pattern and break free from it? Becoming honest not just about the A, but most likely in general, is going to be a long journey for the WS.

After the infidelity is over, the goal is then to restore a sense of love, support, and safety.

I would tell you to be prepared for both outcomes. If you can prepare yourself for the possibility of divorce, then that can stay over in the corner as you do your wait and see.

Preparing financially is a big part of that. Strat working on your bug out fund. Talk through your rights in a divorce with an attorney. Know how it will all look so you can set that aside for a while. There is freedom in knowing you have options, even if you aren’t looking to use them.

There are no guarantees in any relationship. I took what I knew about my husband and realized there was still a great deal of trust towards him in other ways besides sexual fidelity. And like Sacred says I think of both people truly want it, then it can happen.

I know you are afraid of being hurt again, it’s legitimate.

There are so many factors in deciding to stay. My fWW did not make it easy. She went NC easily, but was terrible with the trickle truth. I understand now that her issues with TT all boiled down to the sheer level of shame she carried with it and her coping mechanism to just bury everything. I made my decisions based on some practicality, I did not want to give up on my lifestyle to be single again along with all the other financial challenges that come with D. I made other decisions based on my kids and the effect it would have on them. And, finally for me. I still love her. What has kept me is her learning her "why's", and dealing with them. And being honest about them. That took a ton of time and IC, and MC. But she knows them now. And she honestly looks at the reasons with disgust, knowing the path she took may have felt good at the time, but it only sent her deeper into depression and self-loathing.

Will it ever be the same? NOPE. Even last night, while watching re-runs of my favorite TV series, the topic of getting remarried if one of us had died came up. I said I would likely remain a bachelor, at least for a good while. fWW said she would not be able to replace me, so she would not remarry. I kind of chuckled, and said you were trying to replace me while I was still alive before... She said, "I know that is how it looked, but I was not trying to replace you, and I am very different now." It was a good answer, and my lie detector did not go off. It did not start a discussion, or coldness. That exchange recognized the trauma that our marriage had endured, and the learning that came as a result.

Here is the other thing that helped with staying...no matter how much my own psyche told me that her A was about me and my shortcomings, I knew the A had really nothing to do with me. So I stopped worrying about scorekeeping and who would think less of me if I stayed with a cheating wife. I am stronger now, I can stand on my own if I need to. And if she were to do it again, I know how I would stand on my own. It would not crush me, I will be fine. Could she cheat again? Sure, but so could someone else. I don't think the odds are any better or worse with another partner.

You are not being stupid. My first IC said you can always decide to D, but you seem very invested in your family, your life and you love your WH very much. Take your time to figure out what is the right decision for you.

I didn’t think I could handle another DDay or another lie, but I am stronger than I thought. Once you are out of the shock and trauma phases, and perhaps the anger or flat phases that follow, you will be able to know yourself and trust yourself and think of yourself as a whole entity, not a part or extension of your relationship. For me, the only way to be able to try R after all we have been through, was to realize that I am OK on my own, if I have to be on my own in the future if he screws up again, I will be sad, but I will be OK. There is a massive personal reboot that happens to the BS, and there is so much baggage to jettison - how we love, how we feel about ourselves, our lives, our partners, to get to the truth of the new life we are living.

You are early in the process so the stay/go conversations are very loud in your head. Write lists, do the math, and let your heart and head come to terms with the path that makes the most sense. I took a lot of consolation in knowing that the decision to go is always an option if it is warranted, and that if I chose to go, that didn’t mean we might not find each other again after we have had time to heal. I know that limbo is a terrible place to be, but I also know now that there are no wrong answers, and I hope you aren’t pressuring yourself to get it right until you have had a chance to heal.

Listen to your gut instincts. Mine always told me if something was off, but I brushed it aside. Now that we are far removed from the MOW, the stressors that led to his A, I don’t have those gut instincts that something is wrong anymore. I just want to see my WH begin to grow in some of the ways I have grown through this ordeal. It is a long road.

My current IC said the life we created together and our marriage is like another child we have created, and that the years and history make this one worth trying to save, or a garden worth tending to see what else we can grow together. Were we younger, with a baby or toddler aged marriage, she would not advocate for us to stay married, but in four decades together we have created a life together worth trying to save. There is a lot to consider in the choices you will need to make. Don’t pressure yourself or judge yourself, please. Be as kind to yourself as you can, and know that the broken heart can heal in time, no matter what you decide. Best to you.

Just wanted to say I’m in the same boat. Except it was my wife who cheated. Reading all the other responses for my own good too, it sounds like they covered everything. I wish you the best and hope it works out in the end however that is. I know how difficult it is to decide on R or D. I go back and forth at least once a day. I am constantly torn on asking to see her phone to check up on everything but stopping myself because I want to R and I don’t want to endanger that. I worry I’m being too forgiving and accommodating. Being agreeable is part of what got me here in the first place and I wonder if more of that is just stupid because I love her and want her back. Chasing the dream that might never happen so to speak.

Don’t get me wrong, she’s doing everything right. She’s remorseful and apologetic, cut off her AP completely and did so before I even asked. But there were a lot of lies before I found out and it’s hard to logically trust after that. Even though my heart wants to.

Seems like there's a lot of room for error with this statistic.

Absolutely. I can't find my copy of the book, so I may be wrong, but if I remember correctly, Glass offered her numbers to support the proposition that R is possible if both partners want R enough to the necessary work. She definitely did not imply that 80% of couples R or that 80% of couples could or should R; the number was limited to her practice.

So R is possible, but it's not guaranteed. Even if Glass could claim an '80% success rate' with couples who say they want to R, she's no longer available.

More from Glass: IIRC, she recommends starting a 'working on the M' stage for couples who are undecided between D & R. I think her point is that the couple gets a better idea of their probabilities by working to create an M that serves both. If the work on your new M goes well, that's positive for R. If it doesn't, that's positive for D.

Love is definitely not enough.... R takes full commitment by both of you. No one can R alone, except with oneself.

Oh, Webbit. I hear myself in this post.

It’s not just the life we created together but I do really love him. I also (unlike him) take my vows seriously. I also believe good people can make bad choices.[...] But I’m just so scared it’ll all be in vain.

I am 13 months out from Dday, so I am still on the journey. For what it is worth, here is what I have learned.

1) I have lived my values and been true to myself. My compassion and empathy are not weaknesses. They are my superpowers. I am doing a brave and courageous thing by giving him a chance to redeem himself. If he fails, that failure will be his, NOT MINE. The affair was about his weakness, not my deficiencies.

2) My empathy for my spouse does not replace his need to do the work. Every. Single. Day. Part of that work is cultivating his own ability to feel empathy for what he did to me. We cannot move on unless he is able to confront the truth of what he did, something that betrayed me, but also betrayed his own values. I wake up most mornings to his expressions of sorrow. He has come to understand that my forgiveness is not the same as my healing. I continue to feel pain from the wounds.

3) I accept the risk of reconciliation because the affair was not about me. It really wasn't. He had such poor emotional skills that he thought an affair was better than telling me he was hurt and rejected and suffering from the ways our child's chronic illness changed our lives and made him a lesser priority for me. Emotionally, my spouse has been a toddler, and if he wants to be with me, he has to grow up. I give him the grace of time to prove he can do that.

Work on you, and find your strength. You feel broken by this, but you are not the broken one.

Affairs come from weakness. Reconciliation--genuine and deep--comes from strength and self-knowledge. Accept nothing less than brutal honesty and the hard work of self-discovery because you are worth it. IF he is worth your love, he will do the work. If he does not, then he wasted a precious gift, and that loss is on him, not you.