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Newest Member: akcapps14

Reconciliation :
Is R “homework” unnecessary punishment for a WS?

Topic is Sleeping.
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hikingout ( member #59504) posted at 10:28 PM on Wednesday, April 3rd, 2024

I'm sure it is...sometimes. But, sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's just a continuation of the selfish,manipulative, unremorseful behavior they showed during the affair. But, if they can get their bs to believe it's due to shame, it triggers empathy in the bs, and often, the ws.never does do the work to become a safe partner.

I agree. It’s hard for us to always discern as well because we only have a fraction of the information.

I think knowing it’s shame, working on that, is one thing. But someone using it to continually excuse them from having to step up is problematic.

In both cases it could still be shame, but the reality is it doesn’t matter the reason if the ws is not willing to try to overcome it.

And how do we overcome? We practice, we reframe, we go to therapy, we try. Without effort, no obstacle is ever removed. And I do think it’s worth considering if your wife is using her problems to overcome the request of working on her problems.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:29 PM, Wednesday, April 3rd]

7 years of hard work - WS and BS - Reconciled

posts: 7633   ·   registered: Jul. 5th, 2017   ·   location: Arizona
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emergent8 ( member #58189) posted at 11:01 PM on Wednesday, April 3rd, 2024

I think knowing it’s shame, working on that, is one thing. But someone using it to continually excuse them from having to step up is problematic.

In both cases it could still be shame, but the reality is it doesn’t matter the reason if the was is not willing to try to overcome it.

For sure. Like, it may be "acceptable" to say "I find it difficult to do X because I get flooded with shame when I do, and become defensive, and I know that's counterproductive and a problem and I'm doing A, B, and C to work on that so that doesn't happen," but it's not okay to to just say, "I find it difficult to do X because I get flooded with shame, so I'm going to go on avoiding any discussion whatsoever of the A because I'd rather not think about it."

In both cases, I have no doubt that shame/avoidance is playing a big role, but shame isn't an excuse or a get out of jail free card. If anything it's probably an issue that contributed to/enabled the A in the first place, it absolutely needs to be addressed/dealt with. The only question is how.

Me: BS. Him: WS.
D-Day: Feb 2017 (8 m PA with married COW).
Happily reconciled.

posts: 2169   ·   registered: Apr. 7th, 2017
id 8832008
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InkHulk ( member #80400) posted at 11:32 PM on Wednesday, April 3rd, 2024

Quick T/J:

One day, hikingout and emergent are going to disagree about something, it’s going to be epic, and I will be glued to my phone.

End T/J

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

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id 8832010
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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 3:38 PM on Thursday, April 4th, 2024

I definitely didn't have the answer to, "What do you hope to accomplish here?" worked out in my brain by the first session and I regret that.

The trick is that any goal will do. The goal is a way of mindfully focusing on what you're doing. It's a way to start more than a way to finish.

One day, hikingout and emergent are going to disagree about something, it’s going to be epic....

My bet is that it'll just be 2 different useful insights.

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex ap
DDay - 12/22/2010
Recover'd and R'ed
You don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

posts: 30556   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2011   ·   location: Illinois
id 8832095
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hikingout ( member #59504) posted at 4:53 PM on Thursday, April 4th, 2024

One day, hikingout and emergent are going to disagree about something, it’s going to be epic....

Maybe I could sell pay per view tickets and not have to start my new job soon.

We are fellow members of the class of 2017…so I am going to guess that has happened already somewhere. I don’t recall anything, but I was pretty callous and lost for a long time. I was someone who thought I got it, but had no true dot on the map to see I was still a long ways lost.

Each year that has ticked by with an even greater understanding. It’s been humbling to continually find big growth still ahead or needed.

My prediction is if emergent said something today I didn’t agree with I am pretty certain it would send me on an earnest soul searching trip. I believe that dear woman has a handle on things in such a deep way that it wouldn’t be her I would question.

In the meantime, I read her posts with a whole lot of emphatic head nodding. And I learn something or she articulates a feeling I have many times in each post. We are lucky to have her and the many wise folks here who have found their way through.

I suppose I just talked everyone out of the tickets to the non-existent cage fight.

7 years of hard work - WS and BS - Reconciled

posts: 7633   ·   registered: Jul. 5th, 2017   ·   location: Arizona
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InkHulk ( member #80400) posted at 5:57 PM on Thursday, April 4th, 2024

I suppose I just talked everyone out of the tickets to the non-existent cage fight.

Perhaps, but all the same we are all exceptionally fortunate to get to hear from both of you regularly.


After all this thread jacking, I’ll try to add something back to OP’s topic at hand:

Recovering from infidelity is a marathon, not a sprint. Getting the right resources in position to help you is really important. I know I found it very discouraging to keep hunting around for MC’s, it felt like the time was wasted and even I worried that I was just shopping around for someone that would tell me what I wanted to hear. But at the same time, you need to have someone in that chair that you trust and that is helping you make progress. I’ve heard a lot of people here talk very highly of their MC’s and that they have successfully gotten thru to the WS, and to the BS, and helped bridge the gap. If you don’t trust your MC or see them doing those things, I strongly recommend trying someone else. Marathon, not a sprint.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

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emergent8 ( member #58189) posted at 12:38 AM on Friday, April 5th, 2024

One day, hikingout and emergent are going to disagree about something, it’s going to be epic....

I'm sure we've disagreed in the past, though I can't remember anything specific. Like Hiking said, we've both been here a while, and certainly when we joined, we were in very different places. I know I've said it before, but when I first joined, I mostly lurked and didn't really feel confident enough in where I was to have fully formed opinions so even if I did disagree with her, I probably wouldn't have voiced it publicly (I know, that almost seems inconceivable now. tongue ). I will say that Hiking has always been nicer, more patient, and more eloquent than myself. smile

If our opinions on things sometimes converge somewhat, it's probably because I have taken a lot of the things she has said over the years as starting framework for how I've come to think about my husband's affair and my own recovery. In those first years post d-day, I used to read and read and read and sometimes people would share insight on posts that would blow my mind or expand my brain a bit, or would word things in a way that precisely described a feeling I had experienced that I did not have the words for. Ever the teacher's pet, I would write these little notes down in a notebook, like a student preparing for a test, and think about it more or take home to discuss with my husband. I eventually started writing down the posters names so I could go back and follow their stories or look out for their comments on other posts, and I can tell you that my notebook was full of things written by "HO" (which I disliked at the time because "ho" felt like an unfortunate moniker for a WW who was clearly doing the work).

I do distinctly remember hearing her - and other WSs that posted regularly at the time - discuss their "whys" at a time when I was working through the same thing with my husband. I recall getting enormous benefit from her willingness to share that part of her journey publicly and in doing so, express in words that made sense to me (or at least were less loaded for me), concepts or themes that were similar to what my husband was (less artfully) expressing. It led to conversations between him and myself that led to breakthroughs for us both, and helped me realize he – and we - were probably on the right track, regardless of how it FELT at the time. I am grateful to her and to this place for this place in helping me noodle my way through all of that.

As such, this…

I believe that dear woman has a handle on things in such a deep way that it wouldn’t be her I would question.
In the meantime, I read her posts with a whole lot of emphatic head nodding. And I learn something or she articulates a feeling I have many times in each post. We are lucky to have her and the many wise folks here who have found their way through.


…feels incredibly kind and a little unwarranted. Maybe it's a touch of imposter's syndrome or perfectionism speaking, but I still think of myself as someone who just shoots from the hip, and would probably do better to not spout off so much. So Hiking (never "HO"), thank you, genuinely. Unsurprisingly, I feel the same way about you. smile I will also say that you commented something kind about nodding along with my comments on a post of mine many years back (I had to go back and check, it was a post I made in early 2020 noting my 3 year antiversary) and reading this today this made me think of how validated I felt reading that then. It makes me realize how I should really make more of a point to acknowledge other posters here who I find myself nodding in agreement with, because sometimes posting can feel intimidating, and maybe it shouldn't be.

Finally, and most importantly, I also genuinely don't actually see anything wrong with disagreement. I’m a huge proponent of the Socratic method being the best way to develop critical thought, and as much as I would love being told I’m right all the time (seriously, words of affirmation are my jam! laugh ), I cant imagine anything more boring or soul sucking than living in an echo chamber where I was never challenged. Yes, part of my motivation for being here is to help others, but I also know myself well enough to know that if I wasn’t still learning or growing, I probably (selfishly) wouldn’t be here. Respectful disagreement is an excellent starting point for growth. When someone I respect says something I disagree with, I’d probably be intrigued to know more. At this point, I certainly have enough respect for Hikingout and the way she approaches things that if I viscerally disagreed with something she wrote, I’d assume I was missing something and I’d probably have to stop what I was doing to learn everything I could on the topic to make sure. So yeah, maybe it’d be epic – but probably in the literary sense (ie. long) not in the cage match sort of way. wink

End threadjack.

But at the same time, you need to have someone in that chair that you trust and that is helping you make progress. I’ve heard a lot of people here talk very highly of their MC’s and that they have successfully gotten thru to the WS, and to the BS, and helped bridge the gap.

I think this is true. I do want to highlight something that ThisIsFine (another poster whom I respect smile ) posted earlier in this thread however and that is that I think the most important thing you can have if you want MC to be successful is two honest dealers who are there for the right reasons and who are committed and open to the process in good faith, and are on a similar page regarding the goals of treatment. In my view that is way more important than the individual counsellor.

I say this, of course, from the perspective of someone who overall saw MC as a net positive (despite actively disliking the process sometimes). My own MC was fine I suppose – I have nothing to compare her to - and I certainly acknowledge I got lucky that she wasn’t actively doing anything that hampered our R (I know not everyone is that fortunate), but I don’t necessarily attribute the progress we made in MC to her necessarily. She wasn’t some wise miracle worker that delivered truth bombs from on high and who was able to wave her wand and transform my husband from a foggy, remorseless, obstructive Wayward who refused to do any work, into a model spouse.

OP, I suppose that is why I was asking about what brought you to MC now. Are you and your wife on the same page about it?

Me: BS. Him: WS.
D-Day: Feb 2017 (8 m PA with married COW).
Happily reconciled.

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InkHulk ( member #80400) posted at 1:13 AM on Friday, April 5th, 2024

I have also very intentionally stayed away from using short hand when referring to hikingout. A far more tragic acronym as compared to WOES, which is mysterious and cool, and sadly appropriate.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

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InkHulk ( member #80400) posted at 1:14 AM on Friday, April 5th, 2024

And as usual, emergent is right. MC’s aren’t magic. But a bad one can do a lot of harm, I stand by that.

People are more important than the relationships they are in.

posts: 2455   ·   registered: Jun. 28th, 2022
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emergent8 ( member #58189) posted at 1:49 AM on Friday, April 5th, 2024

But a bad one can do a lot of harm, I stand by that.

I agree. grin

Me: BS. Him: WS.
D-Day: Feb 2017 (8 m PA with married COW).
Happily reconciled.

posts: 2169   ·   registered: Apr. 7th, 2017
id 8832167
Topic is Sleeping.
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