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Last night in MC my WH said that most men don’t consider taking other women out on a date cheating. He said now he knows that this is not true at all but at the time he didn’t think he was cheating until he actually had sex with someone else. I can’t believe a large number of men think this. Any opinions? He told me that is how a lot of men think. Really????

He's trying to tell you that most MARRIED men don't consider dating another woman cheating? Yeah, no. He's full of it.

If he was so sure it wasn't cheating, he wouldn't have hidden it from you. (Assuming that he hid it from you.)

I am a man. When I was "dating" women I had a goal in mind. That goal usually involved sex at some point. Getting to know them, building a relationship, having sex. Or just having sex. Once I became "exclusive" (committed relationship or marriage), I did not date other women because that would be CHEATING. Dates usually have hand holding, intimate conversations, kissing, other sexual acts short of intercourse. AKA "cheating".

I don’t know his alleged "sample size" that leads him to feel "most men" feel dating is not cheating. I know a lot of men. No one I know would agree with this statement.

Now, maybe HE thinks anything short of intercourse is not cheating. But he sure was TRYING to cheat even by his standards!

I've gone out to lunch or dinner after getting married with attractive women too many times to count or remember, but always with strong boundaries. While on the road, a few times my colleagues simply refused to believe my companion was a friend or acquaintance, though. If my W is 100s of miles away or otherwise not available, I don't see any point to not sharing meals with people I like.

IOW, I might have looked like I was on a date, but after M, never. But - but - but: I might have looked like I was on dates with some hot women.

I knew I just wanted to have a meal with someone I liked, and I knew I maintained my boundaries, but other men who didn't have strong boundaries might not have realized that.

I don't mean to take the moral high ground here. I refrained from dating anyone but my W after M because I wanted to. I thought it was in my best interests to keep my sex life simple. I was and continue to be sure that cheating would hurt ME in the end.

I'm pretty sure that every meal I shared with individual people would have been even more enjoyable if my W had been there.

No he’s wrong. I would not partake in any one on one time with someone of the opposite sex.

Hell I even have a hard time with a business dinner without other colleagues present.

Anything that one spouse feels the need to hide from the other spouse is cheating.

For example last week after work I caught up with my male ex line manager for a coffee after work. My WH knew I was meeting him. I don’t feel like stopping for a coffee to quickly chat about my new role, his new role etc was cheating as we have firm boundaries in place and our spouses knew we were meeting. (I am aware some people cheat with all the transparency in the world).

However if I would have lied to my WH about who I was meeting up with, that would have been cheating regardless of my intentions.

My WH "slipped" into an affair. He worked with this woman, they then started joking around, then caught up over lunch and so on until they slept together. Guess what: I never knew of her existence, he never ONCE mentioned her during their 5 months affair. This was a massive red flag in IC and MC later on. He told me how when they first started joking about (including her stating it’s a shame he’s married) he had no intention of cheating, he felt flattered but his immediate reaction was to make sure he keeps it a secret from me. That right there, the moment the secrecy entered his thoughts, is when his affair started.

I’m not going to go into the controversial topic of opposite gender friendships, we all know what our boundaries are (I believe some people are capable of maintaining a friendship with someone of the opposite sex whilst others aren’t) but one thing is for sure: the moment one spouse lies or hides about meeting a person of the opposite sex even for coffee it is cheating.

I recommend probing your WH’s introspection into when the affair actually started. As part of his work with his IC and our endless conversations my WH finally realised the exact moment when he should have taken steps to protect our marriage and that was not when his penis entered ow’s vagina, it was long before. This will help your WH understand himself better and investigate his own boundaries.

[This message edited by Luna10 at 5:03 PM, Thursday, April 25th]

I'm with sisoon. Whether or not a 1-1 lunch or dinner is a date depends on a number of factors.

If you wouldn't mind a recording of the event being sent to your SO, it's probably not a date. This is sort of the basic rule of emotional affairs.

If you wouldn't mind a recording of the event being sent to your SO, it's probably not a date. This is sort of the basic rule of emotional affairs.

Ah yes! Forgot about this too, I remember discussing this in MC: if 1:1 with someone with the opposite sex for any reason (let’s not forget that not all affairs involve going out on a "date") ask yourself how comfortable you’d be with your spouse hearing/seeing it all. If not very comfortable then you are crossing boundaries.

Did he literally say "taking other women out on a date" or did he say "going to lunch/dinner with other women"?

Because if he said "dating", we all know what dating means and it doesn't mean a platonic meeting.

That's a very odd thing to say. Did he say the word "date"?
I've gone to meals one-on-one with female work colleagues and paid for them. I feel a bit weird doing that even and usually call my wife immediately afterward to give her a readout of the meeting, but externally it could look like a date I suppose. I've never done that one-on-one with female friends and would probably balk at the suggestion. If my wife were to do that, I would be very uncomfortable.
I'm so anal about stuff like this that once while a colleague was recovering from surgery I sent her a fruit basket in post-op because I couldn't bring myself to send flowers. That just feels oddly intimate.
It's just not a position I can imagine being in.
So, no, your WH is wrong. I don't believe for a moment that "a lot of men" feel that way.

He said asking a woman out for coffee or a drink. A stranger. So an actual date, many males don’t consider that cheating. He did admit that this was wrong thinking and he absolutely knew what he was doing was wrong. He just stated that most or many men didn’t consider this cheating. I said that can’t be true. The men who don’t consider taking a woman on a date other than their spouse cheating are the ones who are cheaters!

@painful23

Ummmm, your counselor is full of fecal matter....lol.

Business meeting is one thing, a date quite another.

From Wikipedia

Argumentum ad populum is a type of informal fallacy, specifically a fallacy of relevance, and is similar to an argument from authority (argumentum ad verecundiam).It uses an appeal to the beliefs, tastes, or values of a group of people, stating that because a certain opinion or attitude is held by a majority, it is therefore correct.

Do you have children? Would he have accepted that type of answer from one of them?

[This message edited by SadieMae at 6:23 PM, Thursday, April 25th]

I don't think that view is held by the majority of men. Maybe I'm wrong, but I highly doubt it.

Also, HE knew it was wrong in real time. And he did it anyway.

Yeah, I would never ask a woman I randomly met out for coffee or a drink. I don't mind meeting new people. But my first instinct would be, "You should meet my wife" not "let's get coffee".

He admits he knew it was wrong. Our therapist did call him out on this. She did not agree with what he said.

He said asking a woman out for coffee or a drink. A stranger.

———————————

Huh? Does he realise he’s describing hooking up intentions? Nope, I do not believe married men believe it isn’t cheating when asking for a random stranger for a coffee. That’s what single people do. Married men only do that if they intend to cheat…

This "it's not really cheating if there isn't sex" thinking is just one more way that waywards justify their actions or bend the truth in their minds to make their actions okay.

There was a brightline moment in an MC session in our early days when I casually used the word girlfriend to describe some interaction between my fWH and his AP1. My fWH looked shocked and said indignantly, "She wasnt a girlfriend!" In that moment, he believed it.

My response was to describe the various interactions they'd had (flirted and sexted on the phone, provided emotional support for each other, shared secrets, and he'd even given her $ to buy herself something she'd wanted). So how is this not the behavior of a man toward a girlfriend?

The lightbulb went off in his head at that point and he agreed that he had treated her like a girlfriend.

So, treating another person like you would a girlfriend/boyfriend? Interacting with them like you're romantically or sexually interested?
All of that clearly=cheating.

The further proof that a cheater doesn't fully believe their own justifications is that they know to hide it from their partner.

Last night in MC my WH said that most men don’t consider taking other women out on a date cheating.

A: that is nuts
B: even if true, so what? The opinion that matters is one woman. You.

Count me as another man that calls BS. Especially a stranger. Why in the world would a woman go to lunch with a married man they don’t know unless he was flirting them up? As a woman ask yourself that. Unless he thinks most women also don’t consider it cheating or maybe because He lied to them about being married…..

He is not that dumb no matter how hard he tries to pretend. He knew it was cheating then and he is trying to pretend he was a horrible person.