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Turning Point?

Topic is Sleeping.
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 wjbrennan78 (original poster member #84763) posted at 5:44 PM on Monday, August 5th, 2024

Wow - looks like I started one heck of a discussion.

Sorry I haven't been able to apply. I can't log in from any other cpu or device (Admin/Mod please help lol). I can only log in from work and on weekends during the summer I stay away to the best of my ability.

Some background I guess is needed from our relationship.

We have always been great partners in our marriage. There have never been "gender roles" in our marriage and roles really have never been stated. We have always got done what had to be as a partnership. We always had a pretty affectionate M prior to her A. My wife has been back working full-time since 2018, prior to that she worked 3 days a week from home. So I would say the last half dozen years I have felt that more of the day to day chores have befallen me. My business is 3 blocks away and as you all may know I own it with my father and brother. I can be flexible when coming and going so it just made sense for me to be flexible in that area. I would say in that period though I have been harboring resentments in feeling that I was going above and beyond what I should be doing - and not getting the validation from my WW from it.

I am trying to change that. I am taking the stance of "whatever it takes" to "whatever I can." I'm not going to run myself into exhaustion thinking I need to get it done now and that it's all on me. I am also no longer looking for validation when it comes to that. I would always hope it would trigger me getting "lucky" that night after being exhausted. So intimacy started to feel transactional for me. I'm no longer allowing myself or the marriage with that anymore. I shouldn't feel like I have to trick her into intimacy. Also, I would be so damned exhausted that it was much easier to lose my temper or get defensive when we would have conflict.

Without writing a book our marriage was the one everyone else wanted. Our friends and family admired us. I would say the last few years is when everything felt like it went on autopilot. Work for both of us was stressful, we were busy with the kids activities, and all the other family responsibilities.

But being exhausted, stressed, worn down, aggravated and frustrated - I DID NOT CHEAT! My WW did that. She couldn't cope with the stress at work, the rigors of children and household obligations, the aggravation and depression. Instead of talking to me, or asking for MC, or getting IC for herself - she chose to bring another person into our relationship. I did not consent to an open marriage.

Since Dday she would take a "whatabout" stance with her accountability. An example would be "I know I did this, but you...blah blah blah blah." So for her to say she was feeling this, and feeling that, and and it was all "HER fault." was a noticeable change of her attitude. I would also say that since the end of June she has been more empathetic to me. She holds space for my hurt, pain, anger, and sadness - where she couldn't handle that prior. She states "I hate how this has affected you so bad." and the such.

As far as NC that was permanently started at the end of May. When I found out they were communicating as "Just friends" is when D was officially on the table if she would not respect my boundaries. Our MC also lambasted her for thinking that those actions were "okay" and "harmless" seeing she agreed to NC and honesty for me to return home after Dday. She knows now if I catch her in a lie that I am gone. It will prove that the relationship is irreconcilable. We worked together to establish how that boundary will be respected as they work on the same campus. There will be no more direct communication for anything - she will use a third party to relay any professional (only) information. I told her if I found out there was any communication between them without her telling me - I'm out. Even if they glance at each other from across campus - she needs to tell me.

I know she is committed to NC because I saw her withdrawal symptoms throughout that period. She has stated in our conversations that she knows the A wasn't about the AP but the feelings she was getting from it.

My IC therapist has told me to give it 6 months - and even after having some very difficult moments with my WW and disclosing them to him, he still stands by that timeline. I have pivoted months ago to just focusing on my healing, identifying my needs, not relying on the relationship to validate me, and letting her figure her own stuff out. Our MC sessions have been more so with bettering our communication in our relationship. R is not on the table right now.

I've been pulled away from my desk when writing this - so it may be a bit broken in thought or missing stuff. But I thank everyone for the insight. It makes it easier to see what other folks have experienced in their lives - from both sides of an A.

posts: 65   ·   registered: Apr. 21st, 2024   ·   location: Illinois
id 8844206
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hikingout ( member #59504) posted at 6:19 PM on Monday, August 5th, 2024

Thanks Brennan. It sounds like you are doing everything you need to do for yourself. Hopefully you will continue to use us as a touchstone as you navigate this.

7 years of hard work - WS and BS - Reconciled

posts: 7604   ·   registered: Jul. 5th, 2017   ·   location: Arizona
id 8844208
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WontBeFooledAgai ( member #72671) posted at 6:22 PM on Monday, August 5th, 2024

Thank you for checking in wj, and I do apologize if I went on a bit too much of a rant. I must say, I do see a change in your tone in your posts definitely for the better. Any path you choose we are here for you.

posts: 1017   ·   registered: Jan. 26th, 2020
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 wjbrennan78 (original poster member #84763) posted at 6:29 PM on Monday, August 5th, 2024

I have no problem with various points of view. I am confused right now and it helps.

I must say that when I started on the path from healing I made a point of doing it from a place of grace, peace, strength and love. I don't raise my voice when talking. I've learned to keep my mouth shut. Most of "my work" these days have been reading books on boundaries and communication so my relationships outside of my household are better.

I've learned that I can't fix things for people - they have to do that.

And through my healing I have figured out that I will no longer exhaust myself for the validation of other people, but exhaust myself with self-validation. It has been something that I have ignored way too much in my life.

posts: 65   ·   registered: Apr. 21st, 2024   ·   location: Illinois
id 8844210
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WontBeFooledAgai ( member #72671) posted at 8:52 PM on Tuesday, August 6th, 2024

I made a point of rereading some of your old threads. So in light of this also have to ask:

1. Have you told the OBS yet? Hardyfool was right to bring this up in this thread as well.

2. Has your WW 'fired' her IC who is saying that her affair is simply the result of the marriage beforehand?

posts: 1017   ·   registered: Jan. 26th, 2020
id 8845241
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NukeZombie ( member #83543) posted at 10:54 PM on Wednesday, August 7th, 2024

wjbrennan78:

Have you and your WW had discussions as to whether the OBS should be informed of her husband's affair with your WW? I don't recall if you had posted about having this conversation with your WW. Or has this conversation never came up in your discussions with your WW?

If you have discussed this, how has she responded? Is she ambivalent? Is she imploring you "not to ruin another person's family over this?" I'm curious as to her response, to determine if she is trying to protect her AP (and to be brutally honest, you are assisting her.) I believe you had wrote that you are "saving this as the nuclear option"

If I recall right, according to your WW, she began to "detach" herself from you because you would not stand up for yourself in the family business, correct? Issues with your lazy brother being paid the same as you, even though you were the workhorse in the family business? And this somehow, incredulously, lead to her affair, right?

Gently now..... don't do you think by not exposing to the OBS, and pulling the trigger on the "nuclear option", your WW still sees you as not standing up for yourself?


Ok I had typed out a bunch of other points that would rightfully be considered 2x4s... I have them saved but I remembered you are only 4 months out since DDay maybe too soon and maybe much too harsh at this point. I know you are confused, maybe I'll post them once you've reached the anger stage and are prepared for the next steps.

Basically, they came down to what real consequences has your WW really felt? Heck she still feels its ok to stay at her job and has no qualms about going out drinking with co-workers while I'm sure you stayed home with the kids at night. And you're right... it was a pity invite to you for the nightcap. Ok enough, must resist the temptation...to post...more...

I would just really like to reiterate what HardyFool and WontBeFooledAgain posted above.

posts: 77   ·   registered: Jun. 29th, 2023
id 8845324
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 wjbrennan78 (original poster member #84763) posted at 4:37 PM on Thursday, August 15th, 2024

NZ,

The OBS found out about the A herself a few weeks ago. My WW informed me that NC was broke when he came to her office to tell her that his BW found out about the A. Of course I was not very happy that he did that in person - an email or a written note would have sufficed for that bit of information. I did thank her for being honest and not withholding that NC was compromised. I did tell my WW that I hope both of them no that no more contact - ever should be intitated by either of them. I also explained that if this should result in resuming "normal contact" between the two - I am leaving the R/M. My WW actually tried to defend him by saying "their marriage is not like ours." My reaction was telling her that she only knows what their M is like because she received it second-hand from a known liar. A cheating husband is not going to tell her the truth - just as she did when talking to him during the A. She then asked if I thought she was a liar - in which I answered you haven't really proved different yet!

I also asked if she ever thought of the unintended consequences of the A? If a crazed BS will show up at our house and launch bullets into the house, if she is going to contact her HR at work, all the other things that her fantasy land didn't think of?
I then found out it stirred emotional feelings for my WW - so she's still in limerance and is ambivalent. Told her after that revelation and that I would D if contact resumed that "I love her so much if the OM is going to make her happy for the rest of her life - that she is free to go with him."

That was the ugly out of conversation this past Monday (we go to a neutral site every Monday to talk about the A).

The bad of the conversation: She wants to start rereading "After the Affair" by Spring to work out how her FOO and past contributed to her A. She expressed that she is afraid and scared of realizing the "full extent of the devasation" she caused with her A. And that sometimes she thinks it's easier to run away then face it. She doesn't want to do either right now so she's "Stuck." At least it seems like her IC is challenging her now.

The good (I guess) is I made her understand that I do not see the M or myself as a reason for her to have an A. It was her poor coping mechanisms for her bullshit. I said everytime we talk about the A and you say "but, this and that, blah, blah, blah" is just her self-protecting and trying to rationalize her BS. I expressed that I felt bad for her that she hasn't been as intentional as myself in healing and doing the work. I'm hoping that her wanting to read again is a result in her starting to do her own work. As stated I've detached from the outcome and the M and have been working on myself and making sure my kids and business is thriving. I'm letting her sit in her corner and myself in mine.

My therapist has told me to wait until Nov. 1st to make any decision as far as separation or D. So I'm hoping her limerance and ambivalence subsides soon than later. Just exhausted with being in limbo right now. As far as everyday life we are getting along, have intimacy, laugh and joke, and having fun - but it's confusing AF.

posts: 65   ·   registered: Apr. 21st, 2024   ·   location: Illinois
id 8845927
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 wjbrennan78 (original poster member #84763) posted at 4:59 PM on Thursday, August 15th, 2024

I got interrupted at work and couldn't finish a few thoughts.

My WW did admit that she's a people pleaser. She also admitted that when she had a hard time with family members she loved that hurt her she shut them out (i.e. her alcoholic mother). She didn't force any issue or boundaries with them for fear of being abandoned or rejected. So of course problems and her resentments of ways that I hurt her during the marriage were never resolved for fear that I wouldn't understand them, hold space for them, or try to resolve them. It hurt me and I responded that her inability to trust me to take something so serious - if that was the case - hurt me. That she thought so little of me at the time that I couldn't "show-up" when she needed me to. So I guess at least she is starting to look inward for the reasons of the A instead of external.

I'm also wondering if I should reach out to the OBS and "compare notes."

posts: 65   ·   registered: Apr. 21st, 2024   ·   location: Illinois
id 8845932
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WontBeFooledAgai ( member #72671) posted at 5:38 PM on Thursday, August 15th, 2024

I also explained that if this should result in resuming "normal contact" between the two - I am leaving the R/M. My WW actually tried to defend him by saying "their marriage is not like ours."

I also say, that at this point your WW should realize that your marriage is right now pretty terrible thanks to her actions.

I don't see why you need to wait until Nov 1 to decide to D though.

Meanwhile it is concerning for me that your WW and POSOM still work at the same place. And on that note, keep in mind that your WW may be playing a game of admitting something small to throw you off the scent so to speak. As in, she and he may still be talking but she will tell you that they broke NC once so you will think she is being honest with you and not suspect that she may be doing something worse.

If you and OBS can "compare notes" that is probably a good thing!

I am glad to hear that you are not anymore putting up with your WW's nonsense!

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 5:40 PM, Thursday, August 15th]

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gr8ful ( member #58180) posted at 5:39 PM on Thursday, August 15th, 2024

I did tell my WW that I hope both of them no that no more contact

So I'm hoping her limerance and ambivalence subsides soon than later.

Please do a bit of research on a deadly substance named "Hopium". I’m afraid to say you seem to have a toxic level of it coursing around your mind. Hopium causes you to wish for change in your spouse without laying down expectations, boundaries and consequences. Seems today many young folk interpret such healthy guardrails in relationships as "controlling", or, rather, the evil choice making spouse uses that term very successfully as means to defeat any hope of the betrayed standing up for and respecting themselves.

It’s time you stop thinking/saying "well, I hope you do X". Instead, it’s time you do the following: "W, you are 100% free to do whatever you choose. As you make your decisions, I will make mine. Should you choose to continue contact in any way with AP, I will choose to begin the legal work to end this M immediately”.

I can only beg you to understand that since your W knows NO MATTER WHAT SHE DOES, you’re not leaving, that she therefore has little incentive to even begin any kind of self-reflection. Yes, you SAY that you might initiate D if she fully resumes continuous contact with OM, but honestly I bet you anything she doubts that. Sounds like you might have a track record of being passive and that’s working against you. It’s NEVER too late to change that about yourself. Not saying it’s easy, since it would require a fundamental change of your internal mindset, of how you see yourself, how you respect yourself, and how you value yourself. A healthy view of one’s self, and of one’s own value is also a VERY ATTRACTIVE trait, whether that would be for your WW or for next relationship. I’m convinced your W doesn’t think there’s any chance you’d leave her, and, frankly, that likely plays into not respecting you. It’s incredibly difficult for others to respect you when you don’t respect yourself.

Maybe start there?

[This message edited by gr8ful at 5:40 PM, Thursday, August 15th]

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id 8845937
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WontBeFooledAgai ( member #72671) posted at 6:19 PM on Thursday, August 15th, 2024

To echo what gr8tful said ^^^, your WW sure quickly got over her limerance and ambivalence for a moment there when you filed for D a little while back....

ETA: You know, I actually agree with what gr8tful said just above, even over what I said in post #49. He is 100% right about your use of the word "hope". I am noticing a change for the better in the tone of your posts and I applaud you for not letting your WW blame you for any of this. BUT, your WW's efforts have been subpar at best--starting with her not even being present on your date-night at the start of your thread.

I also wonder how that interaction between WW and POSOM went when he went to "inform" her of OBS knowing. I am about certain it was not a one-exchange interaction e.g.,: 'Oh hi there OP's WW, my BS found out.' 'Thanks for letting me know POSOM, bye there.' You better believe that instead that the conversation was for at least minutes and that in there was at the very least some consoling. It is still WW and POSOM a team together--against you and OBS.

So yeah. You need to go further--maybe MUCH further, in sticking up for yourself.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 8:56 PM, Thursday, August 15th]

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id 8845940
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NukeZombie ( member #83543) posted at 7:25 PM on Thursday, August 15th, 2024

I'm also wondering if I should reach out to the OBS and "compare notes."

By all means, do so. First, you need to confirm that she -really- does know about the affair. Don't just trust the word of your WW on this. She may have told you this to throw you off that approach. Second, you need an ally of some sort since neither has quit their job. If I recall, didn't you hide a VAR in her purse? Do you still have the VAR in her purse? Did it miss the latest contact with AP when he supposedly told your WW that his wife now knows?

Is your WW's work email tethered to her phone or is it just her personal email on her phone? You're never going to be able to monitor her work email if it's only on her desktop at work. The AP may have his email on his cell and the OBS may be able to monitor the work email.

BTW wjbrennan78... on a different angle... what are you doing for you? Your WW has no problems going out with coworkers for drinks by herself at night, do you have a guys night out for yourself? You may not have friends like that, but you do have your brother. Can you and your brother go out and blow off some steam while your WW stays home watching the kids? Plan it out so it doesn't affect anything important at work the next day for you and your brother but have some time just for yourself. Also, do it on short notice to your WW and don't let your WW give you a guilt trip for doing something for yourself. If she bitches about it, or complains that she had different plans, just shake your head and walk off. Hell, if I recall she gets pissed if you run down to the store for ice cream without telling her, right? You have every right to take steps to look out for yourself.

For some reason, I have a feeling that your WW thinks she has you pretty well under controlled and if she can just wait you out, you'll eventually rug-sweep this and move on. Now, whether this is to save your marriage, or for her to resume her affair with AP, or just to get over her shame for what she did, or all of the above... I don't know. Re-reading your posts, you seem to like having set deadlines "end of May," "give it 6 months," "by Nov. 1st" etc. It doesn't work like that, and if your WW knows about these dates, she's just going to throw crumbs at you to get you to extend the deadline yet again. She tells you she wants to re-read a book by NEXT SPRING? Seriously? It takes her all of fall and winter to read a book? Which by the way, is past your current deadlines... she's just buying time.


Has she, at least, given you a written timeline of her affair? If not, what is her excuse?

posts: 77   ·   registered: Jun. 29th, 2023
id 8845947
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hikingout ( member #59504) posted at 8:34 PM on Thursday, August 15th, 2024

So I lived through this time in my own marriage. I wish it weren’t the case and please do not look at me like evidence your outcome will go either way,

Some of what is being stirred up is the additional shame of now the obs knowing. She should not have empathy for the AP, but it is hard not to do that when you know you were there doing it too. Her focus 100 percent needs to be on you, and not him but I do understand the way this triggers

I do not think you have to wait until November either, but I do understand that guidance just because these things do have predictable time patterns of the work is being done towards it by the ws. Does she have an opportunity to switch jobs? My concern is that when NC is broken even like this it can trigger the time table of the withdrawal over again the same way trickle truth starts over the timer after dday. He dropped by in person to gauge where she is with things in case his wife kicks him out is my guess.

I would talk to the obs because then you have a way of communicating if one of you find something that indicates a continuation. Truthfully, he could be in a trickle truth stage and some of the info she gives may not be accurate at this point. But still better to maybe crack the door and see what you can learn.

7 years of hard work - WS and BS - Reconciled

posts: 7604   ·   registered: Jul. 5th, 2017   ·   location: Arizona
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 wjbrennan78 (original poster member #84763) posted at 2:27 AM on Friday, August 16th, 2024

Came back into work to answer and express more thoughts of this thread.

NZ - She wants to re-read "After the Affair" by Janice Spring - not in the Spring - sorry for not being clear.

All others - I plan on talking to my WW tonight further about the break in NC. This time I'm going to ask for more detailed questions. What time? How long? Exact conversation, etc. I'm anxious and pissed as hell about it right now - so this needs to be talked about before I settle down for the night.

As far as doing stuff for myself. I still meet our friends group, that she's estranged from, for dinner and drinks. I went shooting with my men buddies in that group - which was therapeutic AF! I've been golfing with my buds and will meet them out for a few drinks during the week. I work out everyday and am down 40 pounds since Dday, at this point I'm in the best shape I have been. For more of my mental and emotional health (the workouts help) I read a lot, journal, take walks without electronics, and sometimes just drive without the radio on to just veg out. My meditation time is now just as important as my gym time.

My brother is going through his own problems at home now pretty similar to mine. So we've been talking and we are going to get together for a few cocktails this week to vent and exchange notes.

I still have the VAR, but since she changed purses to a small clutch for the summertime, I haven't been able to find a good hiding spot for it like the other one.

I appreciate everyone's input. The Nov 1st "deadline" by my therapist was set because he believes she should be a different person mentally and emotionally. That at that point she should "own her own shit" and start leaning into me and the marriage, instead of self-protecting against her own shame, pity, and guilt. By that time, if NC is still intact, she should be through the withdrawal symptoms of the A.

I know I may be overdosing on hopium at this time - but I really am trying to save my family unit and marriage. After almost 30 years together and 20 of them married - I wasn't ready to make a quick decision that may end in regret that I couldn't really live with. Hope this makes sense.

posts: 65   ·   registered: Apr. 21st, 2024   ·   location: Illinois
id 8845985
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gr8ful ( member #58180) posted at 3:55 AM on Friday, August 16th, 2024

I know I may be overdosing on hopium at this time - but I really am trying to save my family unit and marriage. After almost 30 years together and 20 of them married - I wasn't ready to make a quick decision that may end in regret that I couldn't really live with. Hope this makes sense.

The tragic thing some us see is that your Hopium addition could very well result in an unsuccessful R - the very thing you’re working so hard for. Refusing to set expectations, boundaries, and consequences will sadly drive your W away, as it erodes any respect she had for you. Women are NOT drawn to men they don’t respect. I’m sorry to say you’re shooting yourself in the foot. Doesn’t have to be that way….

posts: 456   ·   registered: Apr. 6th, 2017
id 8845988
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BluerThanBlue ( member #74855) posted at 4:07 AM on Friday, August 16th, 2024

Your wife will try to be on her best behavior until November 1… just as she did when you threatened divorce. Then it will be back to business as usual.

No amount of counseling in the world is going to help your wife love you and respect you as you deserve to be loved and respected.

BW, 40s

Divorced WH in 2015; now happily remarried

I edit my comments a lot for spelling, grammar, typos, etc.

posts: 2115   ·   registered: Jul. 13th, 2020
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hikingout ( member #59504) posted at 12:38 PM on Friday, August 16th, 2024

Your wife will try to be on her best behavior until November 1… just as she did when you threatened divorce. Then it will be back to business as usual.

Possibly. Hard to say. I know that my husband have a time period of 6 months too. And I did earnestly work on myself during that time. I am not holding a crystal ball but a time frame doesn’t mean he can’t change his mind at any time.

No amount of counseling in the world is going to help your wife love you and respect you as you deserve to be loved and respected.

I can see what you are saying in one way. But they have been together for 30 years. It’s doubtful they have had that long of a happy marriage (by his account) and she didn’t love him.

I had a limerant affair. So I do realize that he is not safe here, so I don’t want to make assurances or sound like I know what will happen because I do not.

But in a limerant affair the ws basically brainwashed themselves. Counseling and time made a huge difference for me and while people think I am a unicorn I can think of many cases over the years here where that same thing played out. I only seem like an anomoly because I stuck around here and many of them did not.

It’s too early to know what she will do. Brennan can bail at any time even after a time frame he has given himself. There are risks involved sure- but framing this as she is being counseled back into loving him is not accurate. Often what actually happens is withdrawal occurs and all that is being masked by her addiction and distorted thinking starts to unwind.

It’s truly a bizarre experience that I wouldn’t have believed for a minute until I went through the experience. It’s almost like being in a battle with your heart and mind because part of you knows up from down.

But Brennan, take no shit and don’t feel like it’s your failure of you decide to bail before the time frame is up. There are things here that are positive- she told him the AP broke no contact, she must be being honest about where she is on things because he knows she is still conflicted so she must not be lying or trying to pretend.

I am not saying any of it is good or acceptable or advocating that Brennan abandon himself, but I am vouching for this is a real process that is based on predictable time frames that requires a series of epiphanies as you replace the distorted thinking and deal with the physical addiction to the adrenaline/dopamine rush.

There is an aspect of limerant affairs that is a mental health issue that has been created in the process. That’s the reason therapists who understand that give time frames and it’s not to talk someone into loving someone else which would be counterproductive.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:40 PM, Friday, August 16th]

7 years of hard work - WS and BS - Reconciled

posts: 7604   ·   registered: Jul. 5th, 2017   ·   location: Arizona
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WontBeFooledAgai ( member #72671) posted at 5:30 PM on Friday, August 16th, 2024

I agree with gr8tful and BluerThanBlue.

Whatever is going on right now, wjbrennan is being abused by his WW, and his strategy seems doomed. What his WW is saying is what we have heard from a lot of other WW in the other stories on here lately, ALL of which ended up in D.

D is the one surefire way out of infidelity, attempting R in the meanwhile is a low-percentage move that involves years of pain and frustration quite possibly wasted representing years of your life that you will never get back and even besides that, a lot of BHs who supposedly R'd wish that they had gotten D instead. I know of a few BHs who came on here dead set against D but are now happy they are (finally!) cutting themselves free from their WW. (And the idea that there are all these happy couples out there who R'd they are just not on SI anymore or ever--yeahno I don't buy that. It sounds to me like Happy Talk.)

Even BESIDES that, if you are not convinced by the above and you **still** want R, you cannot counsel or talk your WW back into treating you as her H and putting you first. Remember the time you filed for D? That sure woke your WW up if only for a moment didn't it.

And yeah...I hate to break it to you, but a lot likely went on in that interaction between your WW and POSOM when he told her OBS found out. You don't have the full story, and it is extremely troubling that your WW has not removed herself from her job yet.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 5:46 PM, Friday, August 16th]

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lrpprl ( member #80538) posted at 6:58 PM on Friday, August 16th, 2024

She wants to re-read "After the Affair" by Janice Spring

I haven't read this book. I went over to Amazon and read some of the introduction.

In the introduction she says, "I don't make blanket judgments in whether affairs are, in themselves, good or bad".

She also says, "I don't separate the two of you into victim and victimizer, betrayed and betrayer". Further in the introduction she says about not using the terms, betrayed and betrayer, "because these terms convey a certain moral righteousness or condemnation, and puts the burden of responsibility on one partner alone, which is almost always never the case".

These statements tell me the author is an adultery apologist. They also tell me that this would will certainly bolster a betrayer's position that the betrayed shares in the responsibility for their betrayer's adultery.

It is said over and over, here at SI, that both partners are responsible for the state of the marriage (maybe not in equal shares), however the responsibility for the infidelity lies 100% with the Wayward Spouse.

In my opinion, this type of reading material will not help make your wife into a safe partner.

[This message edited by lrpprl at 10:47 PM, Friday, August 16th]

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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 7:00 PM on Friday, August 16th, 2024

The tragic thing some us see is that your Hopium addition could very well result in an unsuccessful R - the very thing you’re working so hard for. Refusing to set expectations, boundaries, and consequences will sadly drive your W away, as it erodes any respect she had for you. Women are NOT drawn to men they don’t respect.

Yikes! An unsuccessful R! Oh, the horror, the horror. Most of us recover from unsuccessful Rs - and jumping to D when you're undecided is almost a surefire way of preventing a successful R.

wjb, my reco to you (and to every BS) is to take control of your life and to decide on your own timeline. I believe decisions come from heart, head, and gut. IMO, they'll align eventually. Once they do align, you'll know. That's the best time to decide.

You may get fed-up with your W's behavior before November. That's fine. You may want to gather more data. That's probably fine. Your W may start showing consistent remorse and make R a real possibility. That's fine. Right now you have conflicting data, and you want R. I do not see the problem in waiting until November - that's a very brief period in most people's lives.

I'm a bit concerned that your IC focuses on your W. Is he also helping you with your feelings and your wants?

No amount of counseling in the world is going to help your wife love you and respect you as you deserve to be loved and respected.

First, this betrays a clear misunderstanding of the potential results of therapy. We have a lot of control over ourselves. If Mrs. Brennan makes loving and respecting wjb a goal of her therapy, and if the therapist is competent, she'll end up loving and respecting wjb. If she focuses on learning to love herself, she may end up loving and respecting wjb; she'll almost definitely end up respecting him.

There are so many variables involved in therapy that it's impossible to predict the results from a few posts on an anonymous forum. If you think you know and/or if you think you can predict someone else's future, you're lying to yourself.

D is the one surefire way out of infidelity,

Yu seem to be missing the most important aspect of 'getting out of infidelity'. You don't just get out of a sitch - you replace one sitch with another. More important than getting out of infidelity is choosing what you get into.

Forcing yourself to choose one of a number of long-term things with unknown results isn't likely to lead to a happy, productive life.

I can't help thinking that the 'D is always right' comes from fear and a belief that one isn't strong enough to do the thinking and feeling necessary to deal with being a BS. I can't help thinking that it comes from a desire for an easy way out.

There is no easy way out of infidelity.

You can't heal without resolving the pain of being betrayed (or betraying, for that matter).

There is no one size fits all.

...attempting R in the meanwhile is a low-percentage move that involves years of pain and frustration quite possibly wasted representing years of your life that you will never get back....

First, you do not know the probability of success of R ... or of D.

More important, whatever you do, if you don't resolve the anger, grief, fear, and shame of being betrayed, you'll endure years of pain and frustration quite possibly wasting years of your life that you will never get back whether you D or R.

But Brennan, take no shit and don’t feel like it’s your failure of you decide to bail before the time frame is up. There are things here that are positive- she told him the AP broke no contact, she must be being honest about where she is on things because he knows she is still conflicted so she must not be lying or trying to pretend.


...you cannot counsel or talk your WW back into treating you as her H and putting you first.

Yes. R will not succeed unless your W chooses to do the necessary work. My reco is to leave her alone to make her choice as freely as possible. Just make sure you know R is a lot more than just going NC.

You do not want to enter R with a WS who is manipulated into R. They'll resent it, and R doesn't work when one partner resents the other.

*****

Are you using 'limerence' as an excuse or as an explanation? Your W cheated. That brings up feelings in you no matter why she cheated. It's important that you don't discount your own pain. BTDT.

And don't discount limerence. Your W presumably lit up when she saw you at one time, maybe - I hope - for a long time. Now she may have lit up when she saw om. She wanted to be with him. You have to live with that, but you don't have to live with her.

Meanwhile, if you haven't already read it, I recommend Love and Limerence by Dorothy Tannov. She coined the term.

*****

For the record, I almost automatically saw my W's A as a symptom of an emotional disease. I almost automatically took her A as her issue, because I was confident she would have had a hard time imagining a better H than I was (which was a little weird because some of our differences hurt). She couldn't eat or sleep during the A. On d-day, I learned why she was so fucked up, and it seemed clear to me that ending the A (which she had decided to do in the hours before she revealed the A, would be a big step in 'curing' the 'disease'. (I use quotes, because the terms are metaphorical.)

Ask yourself how you view her A. Some ways of seeing and A are conducive to R; some, conducive to D. Don't force it - just look inside for the metaphor that works for you. The answers you get are indicators of what you really want.

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex ap
DDay - 12/22/2010
Recover'd and R'ed
You don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

posts: 30447   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2011   ·   location: Illinois
id 8846103
Topic is Sleeping.
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