SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I think we have made a lot of strides in healing and recovery but I'm seeing a common pattern rearing its ugly head. Just when I think we are getting traction (which is a miracle in itself) my WH says something that takes us off track. The best I can describe it is, self-sabotage rooted in his shame.

I posted a couple of weeks ago about him being out of town with OW. Anyway, when he got home we talked about the impact of this trip, how triggering it was, how I worked through it, etc. He did MUCH better listening and holding space during that conversation. But since then his shame is really showing up and he makes comments that sabotage our growth. I found an interesting article that details this by Richard Nicastro - Shame of the Cheating Spouse.

So, I guess I'm posting for feedback, validation, and thoughts on how to handle it.

The way I am handling this is to take care of myself in those moments and remind myself this shame or self-sabotage, hurtful comments, etc. is not mine. It's coming from his shame and insecurity and he needs to own this therefore I need to tend to myself.

The problem is I'm not seeing any progress in him recognizing this behavior and after tending to myself I have to explain to him what is happening. He then feels more guilt and shame and apologizes which just feels so sad and I don't want any more apologies. I'm not sure he can have this level of insight (ADHD/Neurodiversity).

He feels he is walking a tightrope, can never say or do the right thing and I feel very isolated because when I speak up it just makes him feel so much worse, and while I'm not coming to his rescue as often and as quickly it's not really solving anything.

I don't even know what to ask. I'm just feeling very sad and defeated, maybe hopeless.
It doesn't help that his comments are typically around more delicate topics (sex, affection, intimacy( which I have asked for sensitivity towards. So it is like he is sabotaging all his efforts by going for where it would hurt the most (which is what the article confirmed).

The first thing that popped into my head is that maybe as-close-to-real-time-as-possible feedback in the form of "When you ___ , I feel ___ " statements might help. Because of his neurodivergence, he may require some training. I completely understand if you're not interested in being his trainer.

And maybe it would be helpful to remind him that you're not intending to shame him or jab at him when you bring up infidelity issues that you need to process, that you just want to be transparent and authentic with him in the interest of emotional intimacy.

Do you have a set time to talk about serious stuff? That might help too, knowing that any time outside of the designated serious talk time is a safe zone where he doesn't have to worry about you bringing up anything heavy.

Is he doing anything to work on handling his shame? I haven't read it myself, but our MC assigned "Healing the Shame that Binds You" for my H. I don't know if that would be appropriate for your H or not.

The whole problem boils down to two circles: one BIG one (represents himself) and one LITTLE one (representing you - or anyone else!) and your assumption that you guys are two equal-sized orbs!! To someone like this, it isn't their reality, or their perception, and here is the key: YOU CANNOT CHANGE that in them.

As I've shared with you in the past, I've been "hitched" to this kind of person for almost 30 years, 26 of them miserable, all the while trying to buy into high-sounding concepts about relationships, healing, communicating, connecting, etc., etc. After all my efforts, let me just reiterate: you are expecting a miracle if you want THIS GUY to be able to grasp YOUR reality. There is a reason it is called AUTism. As in: AUTopilot, AUTonomous. Fundamentally they are in the world by themselves and cannot readily do the mental switching to simultaneously incorporate their effect on another as they experience their OWN reality. Whereas, with maturity and mental health (with neurotypical brains, in other words) we expect others to at least work at seeing our point of view.

So carry on trying, but please stop smoking the hopium pipe about having a mutual relationship.

I wish I had something more helpful to say. I don’t think you are ready to leave yet, and that’s okay - you are a deeply analytical woman who is going to have your own complicated process or approach before coming to that conclusion. I think that is why I am always drawn to your posts- I too am deeply analytical.

I have said in the past much like Suprese just did, you two are not equally yoked.

And sometimes that can work for people depending on what they want or need in a relationship. But, I think what his betrayal has done is underlined a need you were able to ignore more easily before- the need for emotional safety. I don’t think he has given you that completely over the years but he was able to still provide security/trust to a degree that it didn’t topple the whole thing over.

And I think as long as he remains avoidant, there is not ever going to be emotional safety again. Yet it’s excruciating for you because you also understand that he may not be able to go deep enough due to limitations beyond his control. It’s a difficult situation.

I will say this very gently and really for your own contemplation, how long are you willing to go without your fundamental needs met to be with him? There is no wrong or right answer because the anguish and upheaval it will cause feels greater to you right now, I am sure. I do not know if you are doing it for him because you can’t bear to hurt him or your confidence in yourself to go be on your own isn’t quite there yet? And I am not disregarding that you still love him. None of those things are easy to come to terms with and it’s probably a little of all of it as I remember you all have been together since you were young.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:00 AM, Thursday, December 19th]

There is a part of healing that is the ability to accept your spouse for who and what they are.

No one is perfect and I know you don’t have that expectation. However you want your needs (or at least some of them) met. Unfortunately your spouse has limitations in some areas.

You point out he’s gotten better at listening. That is a huge step and very important b/c you know you are being heard.

But for other areas, you don’t have the success you would like or need.

It comes down to what are you willing to give up to br in a happy relationship? If you have to give up too much to be happy, then you must recognize it’s not going to work for you.

There's a huge hurdle in WH actually getting to the point of self-love and self-respect. Nothing you can do about his journey to get there, and it can drag you down hoping for it.

Reacting with self-sabotage is a way to retain control over a situation when negative thoughts predict, "This is going to go badly" (for ME.) All WH can easily see is how everything affects him. Rather than think positively, or try to find a place of shared communication, better to just assume the worst and seize the narrative so you control the way in which it goes south. Fear keeps you in that "hurt them before they hurt me" mindset.

I wish there was a way to work around that with WH, and help him find self-esteem, but I don't think there is.

[This message edited by gray54 at 4:12 PM, Thursday, December 19th]

I don’t have any wise words, just want to say that I experienced this exactly and it was indeed the kiss of death to my R attempt and ultimately my marriage. I will never understand my STBXW’s inner reality. She keeps it secret and dark, and in the end that is her prerogative as a sentient human being. But I know enough to conclude that it is disordered and incompatible with deep human relationship (even though I believe she desires that more than anything). It was only the constant crushing, searing pain of experiencing this post betrayal that convinced me to get free of her.
My story is not your story, my spouse is not your spouse. I hope for better for you. But it’s worth understanding the risks.

Man, we have some really wise people here.

@SacredSoul

Man, we have some really wise people here. smile

I couldn't agree more which is why SI has been a huge support for me and I'm so appreciative. You are one of those supportive people and I think he genuinely tries to do the work but has some limitations. Thank you so much for the book recommendation too!

@Superesse Thank you always for contributing...

Fundamentally they are in the world by themselves and cannot readily do the mental switching to simultaneously incorporate their effect on another as they experience their OWN reality.

really resonated. I also know my hope/heart falls prey to the "hopium" pipe and your words remind me to look at things honestly.

@hikingout I continue to appreciate your words and support. I always get excited when I see you contribute because you "get" my thinking and my thinking traps.

you are a deeply analytical woman who is going to have your own complicated process or approach before coming to that conclusion

I feel VERY seen with this response.

And I think as long as he remains avoidant, there is not ever going to be emotional safety again. Yet it’s excruciating for you because you also understand that he may not be able to go deep enough due to limitations beyond his control. It’s a difficult situation.

Also 100% accurate.

I do not know if you are doing it for him because you can’t bear to hurt him or your confidence in yourself to go be on your own isn’t quite there yet?

Combination I think. I do love him and care for him dearly. He has no one else but me and our 2 kids. I wonder if that will always be true if I'm here? Maybe I'm limiting his growth because he has me? I do lack confidence and when I come very close to deciding to leave it's like I hit a wall of fear and IMMENSE grief.

@The1stwife I'm going to revisit what I am giving up staying and of course what I'd be giving up leaving (both reality and fears). I will list this likely and come back to comment.

@gray54

I wish there was a way to work around that with WH, and help him find self-esteem, but I don't think there is.

It does seem futile, like he isn't hearing it from who he needed to as a child and therefore it's a like pouring into a bottomless pit.

@InkHulk So sorry you experienced this anguish. Your words are very validating.

Follow up thought here: as my journey went on, I became less and less sure that what at first seemed like shame in her wasn’t actually a malignant selfishness. Again, she is opaque, it’s hard to say what is going on under the hood. I would just encourage you to consider that how you interpret his emotions and behaviors could be more a statement of your own internal world than his.

@InkHulk valid point for sure. I have always struggled with guilt/shame as well, family of origin stuff. I have shame regarding the way I talked to him in the early years and then later in front of the kids, emasculating and condescending. About a year ago I wrote a letter of apology to him for that, helped some for sure, not all gone.
His family is very religious, lots of shaming in his upbringing, and then him having undiagnosed significant ADHD he was treated by his family like an annoyance with little value and no expectations he would amount to much. Hence the lack of relationship he has with them now.

Superesse! YAS for the win.

The very fact that they cheated makes them so self centered and lacking in empathy…… you can’t expect someone like that to experience anything but an egocentric world. Because they are self centered.

So make your world what you want it to be. Because you’re just a moon orbiting their earth to them. Stop expecting them to make you more.

Make yourself more. And live life where you are the center of your world. Not them.

And don’t be surprised when you pick up a scorpion and they sting you.

We only know your husband through your definition but he sounds like he is on the spectrum. I’m going to make this personal for a minute. When I was three years old, I watched Bambi. I don’t know if my parents bought a video, I don’t know how they got it, but it was on the TV in our house and my little three-year-old brain fell totally apart at a baby deer, losing its mother. I had so much empathy for that deer that I sobbed and it was so traumatic for me that months later it’s still lived with me. At five, my parents also rented gone with the wind, which did a number on me as well. At that age, I was totally disinterested in the romance, but I was infuriated that there were slaves there. Those two things tell me that I had, from the beginning, empathy. It means I could put myself in another person‘s shoes and walk around in their life. You sound like you are the very same way. We are born that way. People on the spectrum often times have trouble with that. They know that you are in pain or they know that you are troubled and they try very hard to see things from your perspective, but they don’t actually get it. My suggestion for you is to sit down with yourself and decide what you can put up with. He is not going to change because he would have before now. You are not going to change because most of us don’t actually change. We are pretty much who we are going to be by the time we’re 18 years old and consequently, that is when we are treated as adults by psychiatrists and psychologists. If your husband can only give you a certain amount of affection because anything else is difficult for him then it’s difficult for him. If you require more than that, and that’s awful for you to live with not getting it, then that’s who you are and what you need. Look at your entire life from the earliest memory you have right on through till now and you will see a fairly straight line in how you manage your life. If he had trauma in his childhood on top of having a mild case of something he might not have had the emotional bandwidth to put together what had happened to him because his brain is not designed that way. It does not mean that it didn’t impact him, of course it did, but he does not have the ability to look at himself and make decisions. You have to do you. He has to do him. If you two can meet at the crossroads and find a new path for yourselves that’s good but if you can’t then recognize it. It does not make him a bad guy. It just makes him so different from you that it’s hard for the two of y’all to have a conversation. Men joke about this anyway and women complain about it anyway. We really are Mars and Venus when it comes to communication and I don’t know that we’ll ever make that leap over that chasm. I do know my husband and I have to sit down and concentrate on what we say to each other because he hears one thing that I have not said, and I hear one thing that he has not said. We all come to any relationship with an agenda already been built into us and that’s how we perceive things.
At some point decide what you can tolerate. Isn’t that a sad statement but it is up to you to look after your own mental health. Letting him off the hook because of childhood trauma does neither of you any good, but at some point you will recognize you are beating your head against a brick wall. Buy a golden retriever and you will get enough cuddles to give you the love you require. And what I wrote is not a joke.

@3yrsout Some truth there, minus he isn't a scorpion.

@Cooley2here Thank you for your well-thought-out feedback too. I had the SAME experience with Bambi at the same age as well as Gone with the Wind. Highly empathetic. Your words are very true; this is a journey trying to figure that out.

@The1stwife - The good I'd be giving up; He makes my coffee every day and tucks me in at night, great travel companion, he cleans and carries a lot of tasks and the majority of chores (knowing he isn't great with the organizing/mental load). We love walks, hikes, time with dogs, and shopping, and he is game for just about any adventure I want (yes, I'm usually the director). We have a lot of similar values (politics, food, social issues). We have good sexual chemistry and have fun. If I need help he will do just about anything I ask. Of course, I realize I'm directing most everything.

Things that would be difficult for sure if we parted ways; Financial security, splitting family time, less money to see daughter and help son in college, missing my copilot in life
Things I worry about if we parted; money and having to give up home, alone caring for aging parents, regret that I let go of the good because I was too focused on the bad.

This is a quick list, not all-inclusive.

Another thought that came up after reading everyone's feedback. I still have guilt, addressing in IC.
I feel I'm using him for the good and not giving him what he needs (affection for example).

If you've been honest about what you're getting from your M, that's a LOT to give up. Living with an ADHDer can be pretty difficult, though. I'm ADHD-distractible. I have a lot of empathy, but I don't get my W as much as I'd like to, and we have some significant differences.

In our case, we've found it pretty easy/worthwhile/rewarding to accept what we don't like in each other and stick together, but I can see breaking up over them, KWIM? We've chosen one way, but we could have chosen another. Both staying and going would be morally defensible decisions. Love is important, but insufficient for maintaining a relationship as close as M.

So my reco is to continue working to give up guilt. Give yourself permission to do whatever you want to do, within the limits of law and morality. Acting mindfully is the path to follow - let the D/R decision flow from that.

Is your H being treated for ADHD? If not, the right treatment might help.

lessthinking, did you ever think maybe he's using you for the good and not giving you what you need?

A partnership can be looked at as two parties contributing to a common "enterprise." If one partner refuses to pull their weight by being fully active in the "enterprise,"then over time, the other partner might try to compensate. If things don't improve, then they might try to address the imbalance. But if even those efforts don't produce effective change, maybe they might dissolve the "enterprise." And we would all understand that.

How long will we (addressing myself here as well) settle for this?

His treatment for ADHD has consisted of 26 sessions of neurofeedback sessions, in which there was some improvement, therapy, and mindfulness, No medication however.

Superesse, I don't know

This just came over my feed yesterday. A huge test done on people with ADHD has found only meds make a difference. Talk therapy might help with self esteem issues but the HDHD brain is wired differently. I have it but I try not to make decisions that harm others.

Brené Brown says "shame is a liar".

She’s right.

Shame creates a narrative in our head that lies and lies and lies to us. Shame is the key that unlocks the narratives that say "you always X" with something negative, and "they were right when they said you would fail", and "you’re such a loser".

Shame starts the spiral that gets us into lying, because we can’t face any more of ourselves, let alone have others face us. We try to cover ourselves, bury what we don’t want to see. Everyone does this, all of us.

When we get past the shame, and decide to be vulnerable enough to just talk about the shame itself, things start getting easier. The walls start breaking down and truth begins to get easier to talk about.

I recommend reading some of her stuff.