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I made my first post on here in October of 2020. It’s hard to believe that it is now February of 2022.

I miss my old life. I can’t stand not having my child everyday. And I miss the companionship that my husband and I once shared.

I was so incredibly lost. Lost in "love," confusion, fear. My exhusband and I were working fine. We had struggles and disagreements. Mostly about our sex life, I just wasn’t much in mood ever. I’m not sure where it came from but it just sort of stopped for me. And that was never the case for him. That was really our only issue. At least I thought that until after I got into an emotional relationship with another man. When I did that, I opened up a world for pain and ugliness. I just wanted to make everything right and was scared out of my mind on how to do it. So I trickle truthed…a lot…for months. Until it finally all came out and then I filed for divorce. I needed so much help and my exhusband was ready for everything to go back to normal. And I couldn’t face him. I was confused with feeling in love with someone else. Doing this balancing act of what is right and wrong or what feels right but is wrong.

Anyways, I made so many mistakes and screwed everything up. And there are so many parts of me that want to knock on my exhusbands door and ask for us to walk through this together again. But since October of 2020, he has begun to dehumanize me. And in a lot of ways I don’t blame him. However, I do not know how to go knock on his door after everything that has been said. We have joint custody of our little girl, but this whole process has been torture. He told me he would make the divorce ugly, and he certainly has been ugly. We separated October 2020, divorced March 2021. From the moment we separated all the texts, phone calls, and voicemails began. Whether I had my daughter with me or not, I’d go to sleep with my phone going off all night and then again the next day. Sending me screen shots of the AP and his new life, sending me photos of our wedding day, and in between each photo is a message calling me names and talking about how I don’t deserve my daughter. The messages turned vial, and later I was given the name shitbag. So some mornings that I had my daughter, he would text me saying "good morning shitbag, how’s my daughter?" All this finally stopped last November after going to mediation and enforcing an APP only communication clause. And now, I’m just a warm body that keeps our daughter half the week.

I guess my point is that, I still feel the urge to go knock on that door. But my mistakes created a side of him that I am now terrified of. And I don’t know if this will ever go away. I’m not so much lost or in love anymore. But I am confused as to what relationship we actually had.

Thanks for listening.
I know all of this is my doing. I’m not looking for sympathy. Just needing to type this out today.

I'm sorry you're hurting, nc22. I think it's a good idea to leave that door closed, given the extent of his rage and the need for legal intervention, but I understand why it's hard to let go.

Did your limerence for the AP fade away? Did you get IC to explore how you slid into an affair? It sounds to me like you may have been clinically depressed; do you feel like you're in a better space emotionally?

There's a thread in I Can Relate for former WS who aren't in reconciliation. That might be a good place to read, too.

I'm glad you came back.

Thank you.

I’ve been in counseling since August of 2020. I discovered a lot about myself and my struggles in my marriage. My counselor started off as our marriage counselor and then when my ex stopped going, he became just my counselor. After his experience with my ex he told me that it’s clear that I was in a relationship with a narcissist. That I didn’t feel safe to vulnerable and lacked emotional support. All that is true but it doesn’t change what I did. This counselor has been wonderful and has helped through some very dark periods. But I have decided to switch to a different one. Mainly because I want a new perspective. Each session felt more like I was venting about my ex and my counselor would tell me how strong I’m becoming and ask about my anxiety. Just ready for a change and maybe new answers.

As for the AP….I’m just whole heartedly not proud of any of that. How I handled it. He wanted me to be with him for a long time. When I finally said I was ready, he had moved on. So getting over that love loss, while dealing with constant reminders from my ex, was excruciating.

Emotionally I am in a better place. This time last year I was in the fetal position every time I was alone. I do feel stronger now. Although, the guilt of my actions still weighs on me.

Im in a better place, but my ex is not. Us having to raise our daughter together is difficult. And I have to have tough skin with every single encounter.

WS only

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:12 AM, Tuesday, February 8th]

needingclarity22 ,

Sorry that you are finding yourself in this position. As WS's, we should always know that the affair was a choice we made, no excuses, no justifications. It's a tough thing to live with no doubt. In that regard, we typically take care to not blame shift towards our spouses or marriages.

That being said however, our spouses are also responsible for their own actions and choices, and while the WS "owns" the affair, our spouses may have other things, outside of the affair, that they need to own.

He has every right and reason to be upset with you, to hate you even. It can be hard to watch but not hard to understand. But more is going on here. There is a child involved. And with the way he treats you and speaks to you (and to be clear, my opinion is based on "your side of the story" which is the only one I have) doesn't sound like a "healthy parent" situation for your child. Your daughter isn't stupid, she will pick up on his energy towards you, and probably how he speaks to you. And while he may not realize it, he is teaching her, right now, how a husband treats a wife, and his energy right now is angry and abusive. That means your daughter might grow up to look for a man who treats her the same way. In that regard, he isn't punishing you, he's punishing her. And I haven't even begun to touch on how it will affect her just to see the anger and disrespect between you both. It really needs to stop. Would he ever consider family therapy? He doesn't have to give a damn about you, but he shouldn't be putting an adult burden on her. And IMO, he should really look to respect himself a little bit more. It's one thing to call someone a name amid a fit of anger, it's another to make it a part of your daily personality. I hope, for all of you, that some sort of "reset" can happen in the family, and that he finds a way to move on. Just my opinion, however I would NOT recommend seeking out a further relationship with him, unless and until he gets some therapy and makes some life changes.

[This message edited by DaddyDom at 8:05 PM, Sunday, February 6th]

My ex was not like this before the AP. He was happy. He was happy with me, his life, our daughter. He was never much of an emotional talker so when talking about past relationships he talked about specifics of what happened but never the emotional side of things. I put him through hell. I don’t want to portray myself as a victim here. This type of communication towards me has been going on for almost a year and a half now, so just hard to keep your head up during it all. Im doing a lot of work on myself and I know I’m good person. Im flawed and have made mistakes. But there’s value to me, I know it. However, when someone that you care for takes every opportunity to tell you otherwise or belittle you or disrespect you in every aspect of your life…it makes it a struggle to move forward. He makes sure to tell me that we are only here because of me. That all of this is at my hand.

It’s so hard when it comes to our daughter. She is so happy! And wonderful in every way. I just want her to see the two people that she loves most as warm and respecting people. When we see each other he won’t speak to me or make eye contact. He will smile to her and be warm when she looks at him but can flip the switch quickly to cold. If I say something he won’t respond until I leave and will message through the app. Normal human acknowledgment and interaction is out the window. I’m happy my daughter is too young to read.

He won’t consider anything unless I get my lawyer involved again and have us go back to mediation. He is angry about us having to talk through an APP and angry that a clause was added saying that we can no longer us derogatory remarks to each other through any form of communication.

Just feel like I’m always in a lose-lose situation. And it’s all my fault.

Hi needingclarity,

You weren't the victim in your A, for sure. You've owned it and now you sound like you're doing the work. That is admirable in itself.

I was given the name shitbag

YOU ARE THE VICTIM OF ABUSE. No one is deserving of this kind of treatment. Your ex is abusing you. He is continuing to abuse you in front of your daughter via stonewalling. He is engendering a hostile environment for your child during your interactions at handoff. I can't help but wonder whether his hostility toward you leaks out toward her at times- especially while he is busy abusing and degrading you via text.

He will smile to her and be warm when she looks at him but can flip the switch quickly to cold.

This hit me hard. This is not the action of a sane and rational person. People who are truly have integrity in their character don't morph from warm and loving to cold and hostile in the same interaction. I get that BS's go off the rails after DDay- my BH certainly did. It's COMPLETELY UNDERSTANDABLE and somewhat to be expected. HOWEVER, you are over 1.5yrs out. I put my foot down a year out of it. Demanded he get IC or I would D him.

When are going to realize that the man you married may never have existed at all? When are you going to realize that this:

I miss my old life. ... And I miss the companionship that my husband and I once shared.

is not coming back and that you deserve more. Why are you still pining for this abusive man?

After his experience with my ex he told me that it’s clear that I was in a relationship with a narcissist. That I didn’t feel safe to vulnerable and lacked emotional support.

He is angry about us having to talk through an APP and angry that a clause was added saying that we can no longer us derogatory remarks to each other through any form of communication.

He is a narc. He is unhealthy. You have likely been low grade abused in your marriage to him. When AP came along, offering emotional warmth and support, it was likely such a dramatic change in your accustomed treatment as to be a shock.

Not justifying your A, but it sounds like you should have divorced a long time ago. A man who is capable of calling the mother of his child a shitbag is capable of the lower levels of abuse as well.

I really appreciate all of you for taking the time to read my struggle and sharing some wise words with me. It helps more than I can begin to explain.

MIgander, thank you being so candid with your reply! This is a hard situation, and I’m not pining for him. It’s more that I am wishing for him to see me as a person, a woman, a mother. And he can stop there. Doesn’t have to think anything more of me than that. I do miss that companionship and friendship we had. I’m understanding that it probably won’t ever be there again. This new dynamic is scary considering our daughter is only 4.

Handling the guilt of what I did and then defending myself against this type of communication feels like a losing battle. It’s just a big twisted mess. I don’t know where my mistakes stop and his begin. Right now it’s a constant of "hey you did this, we are all here because what you have put us through."

Curious with anyone else’s experience here?

I'll offer some gentle pushback against your IC here. The sad truth is that we *do* see spouses who are irretrievably changed by the pain of being betrayed. People who were happy, trusting, warm, and loving can become angry, aggressive, cold, and bitter. I think it's the saddest outcome of infidelity, and it seems to be the most difficult to heal. They put those walls up to protect themselves because they feel it's all they have left.

I don't see how your husband can have become a narcissist as a result of your cheating. He can be using resentment as entitlement for cruelty, and that's not a healthy place to be, but it's a broken coping mechanism rather than a personality disorder. Frankly, I'm suspicious of a therapist who characterizes him that way, and I encourage you to follow through on seeking other perspectives.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 7:17 PM, Monday, February 7th]

BSR, that’s more where my head is. Thank you. For everyone else he’s a good man and father. Just not very kind to me behind closed doors. Trying to allow time to do its thing. Still seeking all the help and perspectives I can!

It seems like you've gotten a fair amount of validation from your IC. What have you learned about your darker side? You're using the word "mistake" a lot, but we tend to prefer the word "choice," because choice carries agency. Affairs aren't errors. They are decisions.

I don't think you're trying to blame shift, since you freely offer that the end of your marriage was all your fault. But why did you do it? Why do you think you felt sexual towards your AP but not your BH? Why such apathy towards the end of your marriage to a loving, supportive man? Why did you keep your AP on hold if you believed that you were in love with him? I'm not asking you to justify it, but rather to explore it. Your story is full of logical disconnects on the surface, which makes me curious about the connections below.

There's one other thing that surprises me. You're describing the destruction of a kind, honorable man at your hand. Honestly, you're depicting my personal worst nightmare, that I could have killed the goodness in my BH with the trauma I put him through. It would be agonizing to see him turn into something vile, for his sake as much as mine. But your thought process is focused entirely on you. You just want him to see you as a person, and then in your mind, everything will be fine. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm seeing divorce through a reconciliation lens, and since you can't do anything to help him directly, all you can do is let go and move on. But I personally think you need to build a deeper empathy. IMO, a deeper recognition of him as more than a source of your feelings, and of his pain as relevant beyond its consequences for you, is key to your own healing.

Thank you BSR.

I still love my BH. I always will. And i believe that’s why I’m fighting so hard to get perspectives and gain knowledge on this situation. The word narcissist has been thrown out a lot and I just don’t fully buy it. You’re right I made choices. Choices that I wish I could take back. My struggle is, is it that black and white? That this truly all at my hand. That I took a happy man and destroyed him. Turned him into something else. As far as empathy, I feel like I am deeply empathetic. At least I thought that I have been. It shatters me to see where we are today. While attempting to reconcile, we would share how we feel and have great talks. Feel like we are in the same page! And then when taking what he said he needed me to do and apply it and I would do it all wrong. A lot of what he was needing was for me to sexually desire him and be sexually assertive. I don’t know how to turn that on. I would try but it felt a lot like I was making a transaction for him to spend time with me. He told me he wanted to feel wanted so I would plan dates or try to get us for cocktails, things we liked to do but that’s not what he meant. And I didn’t know how to do it. Then I get myself completely shutting off. He’s a great dad and has always been the picture of perfection to me. Someone that I wanted to be like and wanted them to have the same admirations towards me. I can honestly say that I know I put his needs first in our relationship. And when the AP came along I turned selfish. Yes, I want him to see me as a person but not because I think it will all be fine but that it’s just right and wrong. And when you have a child that we are molding for the world I believe that grace is one of the most important elements of life.

With the AP, I feel like it explored that a lot where it’s pretty cut and dry. It was a work friendship for a long time. And then he put himself out there. Unapologetically, he was always very open with how he felt about me. And his admiration towards me. And I felt safe to be vulnerable with him in conversation. Not judged or scared of responses. Just felt equal, I guess? Physically we would make out and hold hands during the course of the affair. Once the divorce was filed we had one night where we considered having sex but I wasn’t ready. Then it was over. I had him on hold for so long because I was struggling with the right and wrong. With making the choice between him and my husband that I already committed to. I look at alllll of it now and have worked so much in IC and see that these were all choices that should have never been options. When I started to feel something for him I should have gone to my BH and told him what was going on. How I was feeling and why I was feeling it there and not at home. And given us the true to chance to see what we could fix between us. Instead my mind went to that I found something that I can’t live with out. Stupid.

I’m ready to start with my new IC because yes, I got a lot of validation with my old one and I’m grateful but I need some more ways to explore my faults. I don’t want to blame shift because I’m responsible for this. I can now track down through mine and my BH whole relationship where I was never fully open. Being ashamed of bad decisions in my past before him. And didn’t want him to see me in a negative light. Those were my choices. And I still don’t know why I was so fearful of that. So still looking for those answers.

With all this, I guess my struggle is really that I’m having a hard time carrying all of it. I’d not know if I’m making any sense.

Hi NeedingClarity,

What BSR said is really valuable- early on, I wanted my BS to heal so I could stop feeling guilty for hurting him. It wasn't primarily about me wanting him to heal for his sake, so much so I could feel better about what I did to him with my A. In the end, we have to work to get to the place of wanting their healing for their sake.

Handling the guilt of what I did and then defending myself against this type of communication feels like a losing battle.

This is so difficult for me too- handling the guilt and negative self talk that has only increased exponentially since my affair. Defending yourself from this communication is not something you should have to justify to yourself. If you can't justify stopping it for your sake, do it for your BH and daughter's sake. It's beneath your BH's dignity to engage in these behaviors and only hurts him to do it. Each time he communicates with you in an abusive way, he's becoming an abuser himself. That is surely harming his self image. Your daughter also doesn't deserve to be in an environment where adults are communicating in this abusive manner.

Don't feel guilty for defending yourself from his abuse. Neither party in the abuse deserves to participate in it.

Im doing a lot of work on myself and I know I’m good person. Im flawed and have made mistakes. But there’s value to me, I know it. However, when someone that you care for takes every opportunity to tell you otherwise or belittle you or disrespect you in every aspect of your life…it makes it a struggle to move forward. He makes sure to tell me that we are only here because of me. That all of this is at my hand.

That last bit bothers me immensely. I get that he's a broken person because of the affair. That the affair changes people and not usually for the better. HOWEVER, at a certain point, the BS has to accept responsibility for where they are in life NOW. They have to decide what kind of person they want to be and DO THEIR OWN WORK on it going forward.

I'm guessing most BS's on this site would not want to remain the kind of person that is capable of abusing ANYONE. Even the despicable garbage person that abused them so badly. For a prime example of this, and a poster I admire VERY much, LadyG's WH was and is a despicable narcissist d-bag. He physically, mentally and emotionally abused her their entire marriage. She has decided for her own sake to rise above it, to not stoop to his level and become the beautiful person she is. This was not without GREAT cost to her and much pain and struggle. But she did it and she owned it. She held herself accountable for her own behavior and grew enormously.

I'm not saying that your BS has to follow the model LadyG has presented. Only that, if he doesn't want to remain a bitter, abusive person, it is on HIM to heal.

From BSR:

I don't see how your husband can have become a narcissist as a result of your cheating. He can be using resentment as entitlement for cruelty, and that's not a healthy place to be, but it's a broken coping mechanism rather than a personality disorder.

I can agree here, if he's not showing this side to anyone else, it's likely he has a broken coping mechanism instead of a full blown disorder. BSR's right- it is the saddest result of our A's- the damage we've done to our BS's that is so immensely difficult to repair.

Really, my experience of hurtful people doing hurtful things to me most my life without taking ownership of the hurt they caused is what's coloring my perspective here. Your BH is engaging in hurtful behavior and is passing the buck on to you. Until and unless he takes responsibility for his own behavior, he will continue to CHOOSE to be an abuser. And that's on him.

[This message edited by MIgander at 5:07 PM, Tuesday, February 8th]

Sorry for the novels, but re-reading your posts, this stood out to me:

He told me he wanted to feel wanted so I would plan dates or try to get us for cocktails, things we liked to do but that’s not what he meant. And I didn’t know how to do it. Then I get myself completely shutting off. He’s a great dad and has always been the picture of perfection to me. Someone that I wanted to be like and wanted them to have the same admirations towards me.

My BH is struggling with feeling wanted by me too. Especially after my A. My shame flares up and is a continual companion. Lately, he's worked so hard to get back to the gentle and caring man he really is, that I'm in awe of him. The problem is, the more admiration I have of him, the more it contrasts to the shame and self disgust I have with myself. How could I offer my disgusting self to someone so good? How could someone like me ever deserve the love and care of someone so good? Why is my BH even staying in our marriage when he gives so much to meet my needs, but what I give is not meeting his?

When the shame and self disgust flare up REALLY BAD, I shut down. I am not comfortable being open, intimate, loving, playful, sexy, any of that. When I'm feeling disgusting and disgusted with myself, I don't have the confidence or internal safety to offer myself up to him. I've been so rejected, belittled and abused from my own FOO and early part of our marriage (basically the time from my son's birth until my A), that I don't trust that he won't find me disgusting too. I mean really, how can I be this sexy, appealing and fun person when:
-I betrayed him in the worst way with a disgusting AP who is of no comparison to my BH
-I constantly struggle with depression, anxiety and self doubt
-I'm so tired from this struggle that in the evenings, I have nothing left of myself to give
-I'm aging with sagging boobs and gaining some weight from my antidepressants and ADHD med wearing off "binge"- my body is gross to me.
-I'll never be a woman he respects and admires. He didn't before the A, he certainly can't after.

I've always wanted my BH's admiration. I get his care, his concern, his attention and he's becoming more tender. However, admiration is something that is earned from gaining respect. I just don't see how I could ever be the object of his respect, let alone affection after what I did.

These feelings of shame and disgust for myself and the strong desire for admiration from my own HUSBAND fed my bitterness which justified my affair. How can you become sexy and pursue someone you don't even feel in the same league as. There's a thread in JFO- "Honey, they always affair down" which has a TON of truth in it. It was easy to gain the "admiration" and "respect" of my AP- he was a slime ball and thus beneath me. Since my BH is NOT a slime ball, well, I have to work to get it.

I want to put this out there, not just for you but for anyone who may get something out of it.

I have a large capacity of compassion and empathy for every BS that walks this earth facing the aftermath of a dday. While I have also been on that end of things that's not where it comes from as I was not traumatized by my ex's multiple affairs. It comes from witnessing the effect my cheating had on him. It changed him drastically day one. Until then I've never seen someone break with my own eyes. It was wretched to behold and I've never felt so low in my life.

I feel very fortunate that I arrived here so soon after my dday or I never would have taken the time to educate myself on acute trauma. This has short term and long term ramifications. Its not pretty and kind to anyone involved, its a consequence of our actions, and we need to own that too.

Just as my ex was showing me grace I felt the need to extend that same grace as he worked through his intense emotions surrounding the trauma I laid in his lap, unwanted, unappreciated and quite cruelly.

It would have been easy to label him abusive and use it for my gain or anything else. The things he said in anger, his treatment towards me so cold and blunted. He used my guilt and shame against me. Still I felt compassion for his pain and anger, I made space for it, I "allowed" for it. Because even in the thick of his most charged anger, I never felt the need to call it abuse. Even if in other circumstances it would have no doubt at best be seen as emotional abuse and harm. Under the circumstances I created, it just didn't fit the terminology FOR ME.

I kept thinking if this was my sister cursing her rapist, plotting her attacker's demise, up in arms, or down on the floor in a puddle, no way in hell would I judge her reaction to something that would so completely dehumanize her. Its tragically appalling to even consider. Why wouldn't I afford my ex the same? Oh because it was me who so unapologetically violated him without his consent? Hmm. That just doesn't make sense to me.

He makes sure to tell me that we are only here because of me.

I guess too I did those things because I understood this. We WERE there because of me! I turned him into this unrecognizable man with my choice to cheat on him and betray him to his core. If I had not seen him break with my own eyes maybe I would have gotten more things wrong and maybe I would have had less tolerance for it. idk hard to say.

But, I made a line for what I understood as his pain and trauma. I was willing to face the ugly without screaming abuse. I put myself in his shoes and honesty I saw myself being 100% right there with him in his thoughts and feelings towards me and what I did to him and us. I probably would have been even worse than him, truly.

When I looked through that lense it was easier to handle. I say this to give you insight into my experience and what worked for me. Because looking at it that way and trying to understand where it was actually coming from, helped me to step back from the hurt it caused me (because it did still hurt no matter how I looked at it) but I was able to separate it and not take it so personal on a dehumanizing level. It couldn't touch me there because I wouldn't let it. Because as much as it was about me it was equally not about me. Its an odd way to put it I know, but let me try to explain.

We are not responsible for the way other people express any of their feelings. Good, bad, even justified rage. And being betrayed on this level rage is absolutely called for. We are responsible to that person but not responsible for. That means to me that he can call me a piece of shit or any variety of the like, if thats the only way he can express the layers of horrible feelings bubbling behind those words, so be it. But, its not my fault he used those words and its MY responsibility not to cloak myself with them. His anger? Yes everything to do with me. The way he chooses to express that anger? Nope.

It’s more that I am wishing for him to see me as a person, a woman, a mother. And he can stop there.

I get that, I do. My ex hates me 3 years post D. You can tell anytime we communicate.

But just like the above responsibilities, Your ex has zero obligation to see you any other way than he chooses. Healthy or not. And there's nothing you can do about it. I stay in my lane, and that would be my advice to you. However, there are extra circumstances in your situation, like a young child. That without a doubt complicates your feelings about it. I hope for the child's sake civility enters the picture. And as far as it being an influence on the child, they are smart and pick up on things. If your child sees you living your life in meaningful and healthy ways, I cannot believe that they will be persuaded so easily.

But I am confused as to what relationship we actually had.

Well....

Consider too that you were the one that ripped the rug out from under him, and he was banking on the family still being intact and untouched. You can't look back now and wonder, because whatever relationship you HAD doesn't make any difference. It didn't matter when you chose to cheat and it certainly doesn't matter to him now. Not in the way you want it to. I mean, what would you want to hear if you asked him that?

And there's still time that is needed for his healing. Its a lot of pain and anger for one human to absorb. And trauma brain is still running the show. Two years post dday is still rough on a person, not to mention all that was added to it. Does he even know you tried to rekindle a relationship with AP after y'all separated? I can't imagine how that would feel.

I think your priorities are a little off. Your priority is now your child first and then you. Thats it. You've taken steps to rid the environment of hostility, now focus on the new. I think one of the hardest and most difficult things post D for me was letting go. Because I didn’t want to divorce my ex. I wanted us to work it out more than anything. And I still carried a lot of remorse and guilt for my actions. What was I supposed to do with all of that? I was no longer responsible to him but I couldn't just shut those feelings off. It felt like he was a ghost in my life. I couldn't turn a corner without getting that feeling. I still felt the need to turn to him to make amends but that whole relationship was done done done. I was left with myself, had no choice in the matter. 

It was one of the hardest situations I faced. To work through those feelings alone. I trusted the process, you should too. Life does go on, and when you cultivate the things you want in life you can still get a happy ending.

[This message edited by foreverlabeled at 8:21 PM, Tuesday, February 8th]