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I'm simply out of breath trying to explain to WH that he can't send birthday cards and flowers to a woman who is begging him to leave me. Myself, I'm the frog in the boiling pot. I no longer know what's right, what's unreasonable and what are the proper consequences for certain behaviors.

How do I explain that a married person does not have the freedom to have friends of the opposite sex who are not friends of the marriage? That meeting someone without my knowledge is still cheating even though they may not have sex on that occasion?

I don't know anymore. I don't know how to explain what the rules are. I don't want my WS to pick up women anymore to the point they chase him, call him, ask him out, drive past our house, etc. and he says he's not doing anything wrong.

It's as if as long as he isn't having sex (or I can't prove he's having sex) it's OK. How do I get through to him? I'm so tired.

Start the divorce process. If anything will wake him up, that will.

Stop trying to explain it.

He is disrespecting you. Willfully and in your face. He is causing you pain. That's all that should matter to him. Your feelings and requests are not unreasonable at all. He's playing dumb. So he can keep doing what he wants without regard for you.

There is no explanation any of us could give you that will work. He doesn't want to stop doing what he is doing. Period.

So what are you going to do? Because you sure as heck cannot control him.

Balls in your court.

Late into the divorce process he said he didnt want to divorce, didnt want to be alone. Told him he needed counseling, I needed technology transparency and he needed to go no contact with her.

He told me she was his friend and always would be. Told him I wasnt going to be the third person in my own marriage of 35 years.

Divorced and have not spoken in 8 years. I still fully believe that when she divorces her third husband, my ex will be there waiting in the wings. I was not going to wait for that to happen.

Your husband is being very disrespectful.

[This message edited by hcsv at 11:58 AM, Friday, February 9th]

Ditto all the advice above.

He knows full well what he’s doing and will continue to do it so long as you tolerate it and he gets no consequences for doing so. Ask me how I know.

Have you and he read "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass? It’s a must read.

He needs IC to help him understand why he has a need for ego kibbles outside of your M. IC could benefit you as well to help you navigate through the field of bullshit he’s put in front of you.

Have you been dealing with this since 2020? Same AP?

"How do I explain that a married person does not have the freedom to have friends of the opposite sex who are not friends of the marriage? "

My experience is that this sort of thing is not productive. People do what they want to do.

As the years go by I have come to realize the value of relationship agreements. Most of us had (at least on paper and overtly) monogamous relationship agreements.

I have come to believe that EXWH did not lack understanding or need anything explained to him. He knew full well what was healthy and agreed upon for our marriage and not. He just did not want what he agreed to.

He was a grown man who risked my health and life without my consent with this lies. We did not have a relationship "contract" for an open marriage. We had an agreement to "forsake all others". He renegotiated the contract unilaterally without telling me. (In other words he cheated. And he lied about it all which meant that he knew I would not consent to what he was doing.) And he full well knew what was appropriate and healthy behavior in protecting and nurturing a marriage of the kind we agreed to.

Everyone’s mileage may vary, but it was exhausting for me to attempt to be the one who attempted to enforce marriage boundaries with an unwilling partner. It is so much more peaceful and easy a willing partner.

I am so sorry you are experiencing the pain of a partner who is not protecting what he vowed to protect. I wish you peace and healing.

Gently, you're really asking, 'How can I change my WS?' The answer is: you can't.

All you can do is decide what you will do in the face of his refusing to stop connecting with his ap.

Your choices are limited to things like:

1) Accepting his refusal to go NC;

2) giving him one more chance by stating explicitly, 'If you do not go NC, I will ____.' You fill in the blank. My reco is something like 'split' or 'D'.

3) go directly to D.

*****

To be in a relationship, each partner needs to get some of their wants satisfied. SI has some guidelines, but they don't work in every case. The rules are what you negotiate with your WS.

You can't effectively set rules for your WS. If you do, you give them something to rebel against, and they are likely to rebel when R gets tough.

You can and must set rules for yourself. You decide how you will respond when your WS violates your agreement. You decide how you will respond if R isn't going well. You decide if you even want to R.

The very first requirement is to go NC. Your H won't do that. He's choosing his ap over you. That's his loss, but it's up to you to respond.

My guess is that R doesn't work unless the WS willingly shuts the door on the ap. It may take a while (weeks?)for the WS to be comfortable about being NC, but I can't help thinking that a WS who won't give the ap up is not a good bet for R.

Your whole post/comment is shocking. WOW.

No rational, intelligent adult is this obtuse.

He knows. If claims otherwise, he's lying.

He is a poster child for cheaters cheat and cheaters lie... it's who the are and what they're about.

[This message edited by Apollos at 4:07 PM, Friday, February 9th]

You don’t have to explain anything to him. You just need to act. Make your boundaries and set consequences. I suggest the 180 for you now (see the 180 thread in JFO) Withdraw any communication rather than finances and children. He is not only not protecting you from an enemy, an enemy who means you harm, he is actively encouraging that enemy, thereby encouraging that harmful intent. I hear you say he has normalised such abuse that you no longer know what is acceptable or not. Hear us. We are all saying very loudly and firmly, this is abuse. Step back. Put the line in the sand. He wants to be your husband? He’s going to have to audition for the part. So far, he has no idea what that part requires. And it’s not up to you to explain to him. He has to research what it requires You just walk away from his gaslighting for now so you can gain some distance and clarity. You don’t even have to
explain your boundaries- that’s the point of them, they’re your line in the sand as to how you want to be treated. Currently, he’s pushing that line closer and closer and erasing it. You have to redraw it. Very firmly and decisively. Read the 180 thread. You can do this! We’ve got your back.

[This message edited by Edie at 4:21 PM, Friday, February 9th]

Listen to everyone they are on the money.

You should not have to explain this to him.

He obviously wants to keep his cheating options open. = cake eater.

I could give reasons like too much temptation, puts too much unnecessary strain on the relationship long term for little benefit, the relationships is about sex therefore it is dishonest and a dishonest friendship is unhealthy.

But why bother.

Just tell him "ok I will start having personnel relationships with men I would want to sleep with and who definitely want to sleep with me".

But he would not be ok with that.

Honestly like everyone is telling you time to put a boot in his ass.

That could mean serve him divorce papers.

You deserve better.

You’re worth much more and there is definitely someone else out there for you who would agree.

Don’t let him manipulate and abuse you.

MargiLan:

I am in a similar situation, my wife does the same passively.

If it weren't for my youngest daughter (17) I would have already gotten divorced.

As Sison told you before: You can't change your partner.

I have tried everything: "Pick me now". Separation for a month and a half. 180 tactic (twice)...

After getting No Contact and her mobile phone password (Discovery Day 2), I discover again and again how she unblocks OP's contact, this last time a few days ago. -She is waiting for the St.Valentine's Day Whats app romantic conversation with Other Person.

Straight towards DD3...

I only have one bullet left: reveal his family.

Currently, I am being accused by her of being angry, obsessed, isolated and thinking only of myself.

...And that I don't love her!!!

High School adolescent narcissism.

[This message edited by Littlepuppet at 5:20 PM, Friday, February 9th]

If you want something that explains the problems with the behavior you describe while also outlining healthy, common sense boundaries, Shirley Glass’s Not Just Friends is terrific.

But as others have said, he’s being willfully obtuse. Instead of beating your head against a brick wall trying to explain why his behavior is an issue, just tell him that you’re unwilling to live in a relationship with a partner who behaves this way. If he values the relationship he will change his behavior. If not, you have your answer and make your choice about how to proceed.

Your husband is extraordinarily skilled at gaslighting.

Your husband is extraordinarily skilled at gaslighting.

This.

Get away from this man. STAT. You need some space to breathe and come to your senses.

I highly recommend IC for clarity and support.

The fact that you have to explain it is a huge red flag.

IMHO he's f***ing with you and enjoying every minute of it. That's cold, cruel and calculated.

Many people are incapable of changing their behaviors unless they are subjected to concrete consequences for their actions. Even then some people are incapable of it regardless.

Seems that this WH of yours is not afraid of any consequence. He sounds like quite the cake eater.

The best thing you can do is to Close the Bakery.

The only thing there should be with an AP is No Contact. That is it. No friendship, no stalking, no acquaintances. Unless he wants to be divorced.

I agree with every response to your post. He is not a good candidate for R and he is gaslighting you which is abuse on top of the abuse he has already put you through with the A. No Contact or No Marriage. There are no negotiations on this.

I have been going through something similar although periodically WH does change his behaviour for the better and then regresses.

I have found that as well as selfish behaviour, that he is fully aware of, there is also a tendency to lie to himself about what he is doing. 5 years out I am finding the strength to really challenge the behaviour so lying to himself etc is no longer an option. WH says he is a good honest person so highlighting his poor behaviour challenges this view and forces him to face what he is doing/has done

Just call him out on it every time and any manipulation. Do not allow him to compartmentalise or bullshit you. I just say "that is not how i see it" or "that isn’t true & you know that"

When WH says I love you, I now always say "start proving it by doing something about AP" I have seen some small improvements. It is hard work though

As long as there is contact between the AP and the WS, than the affair is still on-going. Which is why NC is the bare minimum requirement for R, because without NC, the WS is still deep in the affair and definitionally not capable of R.