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I have an uncanny way to explain because your wife and I experienced common psychological responses of having an affair. It’s not unique to us or a major share of other ws.

You know how I know she has? Because she has an uncanny way to answer the same as me. She has clarity over herself. It’s a great sign. I don’t know what parts she doesn’t do great but I seem to remember you saying different times she has overall tried.

What it’s hard to recognize, it’s not stupidity. It’s choosing to ignore and live out the narrative in your head.

I am a very smart woman, especially when it comes to people. It’s served me well in many ways especially my career. In some ways my fucked up upbringing gave me this gift. Because I had to keep a temperature on every one else’s moods in my house to avoid a shitstorm, I just tried to be left alone., and I got very good at reading people. Hyper vigilance is my super power.

I ignored largely the things he said and the actions he didn’t make and turned up the volume on the things I wanted to see. Because it was never really about him. It was about me.

I was trying out someone else on him. It’s a little like role playing but like character acting. This is who I want to be, and this is who I want to become and it’s really not. I mean, I like music but not to the degree I pretended too. I said awkward cringey things. I believed I had the upper hand as I was much younger than the ap (that part was maybe very 2D of me but when you are in this state you believe your own bs) it was all performative.

The hook is the dopamine bomb. The feelings that gives you makes you believe there is something deeply emotional happening.

Escapism is not being dumb, it’s using creativity, and in this case it’s being used terribly for a heinous act. Have ya ever noticed that the ap is often a loser? I mean for more than just being a cheater. Often the bs has no idea why their spouse would be interested in someone like they were cheating with.

I wasn’t me.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:04 AM, Saturday, May 24th]

TrayDee

It's amazing how similar so many of our situations are!

As I move across one of my POLF, I am currently stuck asking myself...How could she be SO STUPID!?!? How could she not see how insane all of this is? Did I miss the fact that she was ALWAYS this broken?

I don't know if I'm on the POLF or not, but I have been having similar thoughts about my WW. I have been going over and over how stupid some of my WW's decisions were.

For example she specifically had an affair with a man who admitted to having at least one previous affair, and admitted to using escorts without telling his wife any of this. She knew this BEFORE they initiated their affair. Then she got upset when she found out later that he lied to her... Like really?! How were you expecting someone like that to act? She actually told me that she trusted him and didn't think he would lie to her. Thats why they had sex without protection. He "promised" to only be with her during their affair, and he didn't have any STD's, and had a vasectomy, so why use protection?

The more I look at our history as a couple, the more I can see the signs of her impending betrayal. I'm 100% convinced that whatever caused her to act like this was present well before we knew each other. Yes I missed the fact that she was always broken. But at least I can see it now that she has revealed herself. At least I (hopefully) know where we stand. At least I can now put firm boundaries in place. Boundaries I never thought I would need to spell out, or be firm on before, but thats where we are unfortunately.

I’ll just chime in here with a "me too." My WH is also a liar. Big surprise. I know he lies all the time. I hate it but I just got used to it. It was about stupid shit that didn’t warrant a lie. Stuff like eating all the chocolate or the ice cream. It was almost always about food, but he also lied to his parents when he never told them how much they hurt him or how angry he was. He always faked affection. So yes, it makes me feel very insecure. Like he’s just 100% fake and why does he waste my life lying about how much he loves me? I always attributed it to his being from Texas where I never met so many fake people in my life. But it was a nice fake, a flattering fake, a perfect persona fake. My husband hated it as much as I did but couldn’t ever stop. It’s like he’s not capable of telling the truth because the truth is rude. He claims it’s why he loves me so much. Because I’m brutally honest and unafraid of the truth. Fleetwood Mac "tell me lies tell me sweet little lies tell me tell me lies"

Hikingout....

This is a VERY VERY VERY big sticking point for me

Escapism is not being dumb, it’s using creativity, and in this case it’s being used terribly for a heinous act. Have ya ever noticed that the ap is often a loser? I mean for more than just being a cheater. Often the bs has no idea why their spouse would be interested in someone like they were cheating with.

I wasn’t me.

If you weren't you, then who were you?

I had this argument with my WW on more than a few occasions. The A went against everything I knew about her.

This AP was a loser. Former jailbird, working as a forklift driver, pill popper, trying to sell drugs to support his habit, but couldn't get ahead because he was addicted.

He talked her into meeting him at a hotel after work...but not a nice hotel. The hourly ones where the prostitutes work their clients from.
This is a lady who brought her own sheets from home to change the bedding at the 4 and 5 star hotels that we go to on vacation.
Yet this POSOM was able to get her to meet him at the local roach motel/flea bag inn.

At some point your actions ARE who you are.

I wasn’t me.

If you weren't you, then who were you?

Metaphor, Tray.

From Grammarly, 'A metaphor is a figure of speech that describes one thing by stating it is another, highlighting similarities between the two. For example, saying "time is a thief" suggests that time steals moments from our lives, even though time isn't literally a thief.'

Some people get it, accept it, and R. Some people get, don't accept it, and D. You pick for yourself. Just know that you'll get support either way.

I know my W is my W. I know she cheated. I know both fidelity and infidelity are in her. I know she's still afraid to be authentic a lot of her waking time. (Who isn't?) But I also believe she's committed to getting more authentic over time, and so far she's been changing fast enough for me.

I see her A as an aberration. I believe she has made amends and will continue to do so. I see my W during her A as 'not herself.'

That doesn't make sense on a logical level, but it (obviously) makes sense on an emotional level to the people who get a vote.

I have no argument with people in the same situation who concluded there was only one WS, the one who cheated instead of the 2 WSes I see, one who cheated and one who - somehow - didn't. The sitches can be exactly the same, but the BSes are probably different - different genes, different upbringing and experiences, different WSes, etc., etc., etc.

Come to think of it, a BS is free to see their WS as 2 different people and decide to D. I wouldn't argue with that BS, either.

So I agree with the proposition that one's actions are who one is, but I'll also say that different people may view the same actions in different ways.

Alas, recovering from being betrayed is difficult any way you look at it....

*****

IMO, it takes thousands of trust-building actions to rebuild trust. Honest answers are quick ways to perform a lot of the necessary actions, but it's impossible to bring up everything that the aps thought, said, and did. The best you can hope for is getting enough of the story to feel satisfied. Even that's difficult, though, because you have to decide what will satisfy you.

But you know that, right?

I would put the question of 'trust' aside (forgiveness, too). I hope you never go back to blind trust - that's too heavy a burden for anyone to carry.

Just monitor yourself. If your trust level keeps going up, you're OK. It it doesn't keep going up, that's a problem that needs to be addressed - and you're the only one who can initiate a resolution.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:22 PM, Monday, May 26th]

I see her A as an aberration. I believe she has made amends and will continue to do so. I see my W during her A as 'not herself.'

That doesn't make sense on a logical level, but it (obviously) makes sense on an emotional level to the people who get a vote.

I wanted to commend this post for its clear explanation of the illogical mental gymnastics some individuals employ to reconcile. A lot of pejorative terms in that sentence but none of them intended negatively.

If one can compartmentalize their partner's transgressions from the image of the spouse they love, I can see how that makes the situation more palatable. 'It wasn't them that hurt me, it was the other them that did it and they're gone now'

This further reinforces my belief that individuals with a more logical disposition may find reconciliation particularly challenging. This is not to say it would be entirely impossible, however.

Sisson

I understand the concept of a metaphor perfectly. Problem is that this metaphor in this case helps obfuscate the point at hand.
That point is...it is obviously at least a part of that person.

Look, I am not saying this to bash anyone not Hikingout, my W, or any WS that feels this way or BS that agrees.

However if you ask most any WS did they believe they were capable of what they did BEFORE the A, they would tell you a definitive no. Yet they did.

In order to get there they were able to cross dozens if not hundreds of boundaries....in thoughts and deeds. A stoppage at ANY of those boundaries ends the A. Yet they barreled through every stop sign.

That shows that there is SOMETHING in THEM that allowed that. Whether they think that is part of who they are or not, it is there.

While it is important for me to understand this in my W, for obvious personal reasons, I am fascinated by the idea that people can commit heinous acts and still somehow believe that is NOT who they are.

Earlier in the thread Drsoolers wrote:

The impulse to lie to avoid consequences, while perhaps understandable in a moment, is ultimately embarrassing. If one wishes to keep negative actions private, the simplest solution is not to commit them. If one does, facing the truth is the only honorable path; to do otherwise is fundamentally cowardly.
Isn't it interesting that someone with the above traits would also be a cheat? It can't be a coincidence. Likely a fundamental core issue with her outlook. The reason she lies to save face is the same reason she cheats. It's a character flaw. Be it moral failing or otherwise.

While I am in no way the moral police, I agree with this thought process. If an action is not who you are then you wouldnt do it. If you did said action, it is at least partly who you are.

I have been a violent person in my past. I make no bones about it. That's who I am. I have done a lot of things to change who I am and make amends, but I know, in the right circumstances I could easily revert because its in me. That makes me remain vigilant on keeping myself from those situations.

In the same way, I am leaning toward the idea that someone who could lie, because of certain situations, could cheat because certain situations. It is all a matter of if they feel it can be justified.

I cheated, I don’t think I could take more accountability for that. I am not a minimizer- I have said every way I can that I made a willful decision to cheat. And I have paid a dear price. So I am not saying I wasn’t myself because I do not take accountability.

What I believe you were asking is how could one be so stupid as to not take into consideration of who I was cheating with or whether it was aligning with what I wanted to get from it.

I willfully chose to have an affair. And I willfully chose to believe what I wanted to believe because what I was seeking most was escapism. This is often hardest for men to understand because they project why they would cheat and it’s all about sex usually. Yet, as much as they think they would like to have sex with other women these same men would never cheat. What does that tell you? That sex on its own is rarely enough precipitation.

What you can’t foresee when you start is the brain chemistry changes. When your high is associated with a person, you can easily believe that this is something special because it’s a feeling you haven’t experienced before. You are literally getting high from your own body chemicals- adrenaline, dopamine, etc. this is where you really start to believe there is something there with the person. But it could literally almost be anyone. There is nothing special about an ap.

Let’s say I chose to try and escape in shopping. Once one starts taking risks (spending more money than you have) you just focus on the feeling of buying that next thing. You stop checking account balances. You come up with magical scenarios in WB you could pay it back. But really you are just focused on your next purchase because you need the hit of dopamine/adrenaline.

I can tell you how it felt and that doesn’t mean I am not accountable for what I did. I mean, I allowed myself to ruin my life for a significant amount of time.

And if you chose to believe that is who I am without the idea that one can learn things from things they experience then we are reduced to this is who I am and always will be. And if that is your belief, I can’t challenge it, nor do I have the inclination.

That sounds pissy but I don’t mean it to be, it’s meant to say if this is your position you may have trouble with reconciling. There is nothing wrong with that, it just maybe something to note or recognize.

I mean escapism was always my drug of choice,(always who I was?) the affair was just a manifestation of that. And I have to be vigilant not to keep transferring that need to escape into different forms. I can tell you I will not choose an affair as that route again, but I can tell you there has always been a pattern there because when you grow up in chaos it becomes a coping mechanism.

What recovery in any form boils down to (and this is the same for drug addicts, alcoholics, gamblers, anyone who uses these artificial highs to be their escape from the world) is that you have to create a life you do not want to escape from. This means learning to be authentic, yo live your values, to hold vigilance on what isn’t working and put new plans into place. To have hobbies and friends and good relationships. To be able to show up even when it’s hard.

For decades in my marriage I was not a cheater. And I didn’t really think about whether I was capable of it because I never really entertained it. But I can point to ways I used escapism since I was small, and that to me is the part that has always been there and is still there if I allow it.

I was a people pleasing person who did not keep a balance on myself. By the time I had the affair I was in an existential crisis…I didn’t feel connected with myself, know myself, nor did I feel the a sense of me was ever noticed by my husband. I didn’t care about anything, especially myself because you can’t place value on which you don’t know. It was easy for me to slip into a different role, I basically reverted to an earlier version of myself in order to play that role.

But I do believe I have grown from It and I do not feel it defines me nor makes it who I am. It did rock me to my core and I have had to work very hard to redefine myself and feel strongly about who I am and what I believe and to become braver and stronger in being true to myself. I have had to learn real coping mechanisms and have grown my spiritual faithS

I do not feel I was true to myself in my affair. I do not think I am any longer at my core someone who doesn’t love myself or willing to compromise myself for very poor pay offs. My values is what makes me who I am and I couldn’t have said that until years after my affair.

So I think it comes down to, whether or not you feel your ws has refined herself or is capable of it. And whether you can accept that people can and do change through different seasons of their life. I think the whole once a cheater always a cheater seems to be often a sticking point. And you know some people do reoffend, but that’s the same with violence.

The part as a reconciling bs that you have to find comfort in is that you trust yourself again. You have to feel like the reasons you are staying benefit you. And you have to have the confidence you have your own back and can and will deal with it differently next time.

Because all external relationships are a reflection of your relationship with yourself. When you begin to trust yourself again, you will be able to trust her as much as you need to. When you accept that you have changed and wouldn’t accept cheating again in your marriage you can begin to recognize that you never thought you would take her back if she did this, but that doesn’t define who you are or what you decide in the future. Because life fluid, not fixed.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:09 PM, Tuesday, May 27th]

Im going to reset myself here...as i look back on some of my posts, the tone sounds a little more negative or more standoffish than I intended. For that I apologize to all.

Hikingout

What I believe you were asking is how could one be so stupid as to not take into consideration of who I was cheating with or whether it was aligning with what I wanted to get from it.

My comment was about how could one be so stupid as to believe, that playing the role of a person that you are not, for a person who normally would not be someone you would even consider in your regular state of mind, could resolve ANY of the problems that person was facing.
Regardless of who the wayward was, and I believe you would agree, reverting to a fantasy world to escape real world problems is no way to behave. IMO that is the fundamental reason that a wayward mindset offends the betrayed. The wayward runs off into the fantasy, leaving the betrayed whether they are aware of betrayal at the time or not, to deal with the problems of the real world.

And when Dday comes and the fantasy bubble implodes, there is NOTHING left but the real world and the devastation that was wreaked by the fantasy that was indulged in ON TOP of the real world problems that were already there. I expected a woman as wise as my wife to understand that and know better and that is part of the disappointment.

Which brings me back to my original post/thoughts...

Many BS have said that the A was a horrible thing, but the true dealbreaker was the lies and trickle truth after.

Hikingout, YOU have personally helped me in so many ways and so many times gain new levels of understanding of my W and her mindset that I could not possibly measure it's worth. I am soooooo thankful that you have stuck around to "pay it forward" as you like to say.

However you are a unicorn in the sense that you are one of the few WS that I have read in this or any affair recovery forum that confessed on your own and did not lie or TT your betrayed spouse.

I'm sure many others will agree, that in some fashion we have wondered, why couldn't my WS just tell the truth.
Just rip the wound open, put it all on the table and begin the healing.
Instead, most of us got death by a thousand cuts.

It seems to me that the affair and the escapism and the feelings and the dopamine is part of the cake, but most times the WS puts the lies as baked in the cake.
But the BS often looks as the lies as a whole separate cake.

This is where I believe the breakdown occurs...why so many have taken the stance that not lying, and living in authenticity is an absolute must in R....yet others make some room for lying in certain "necessary" circumstances.

Personally I have decided that any inauthentic behavior from my W in regards to ME is automatic end to R.
However I am fascinated about both sides of the debate and have gained some understanding of the other side as well

Tray- just to be clear you did not offend me and it’s normal what you are saying. The feelings you have come out and that’s not something to apologize for.

My comment was about how could one be so stupid as to believe, that playing the role of a person that you are not, for a person who normally would not be someone you would even consider in your regular state of mind, could resolve ANY of the problems that person was facing.

Well the part you are not seeing, at least for me, is I hadn’t been really there for a long time. I was only the roles I played. And it was always because I was a black hole of need and that black hole grew as the roles I played didn’t lead to the connection I was looking for.

I loved my h, but I felt to have his love I needed to be all these things. And I did them, didn’t get me the connection, and then I did more. After a long time I was really just a shell of a person going through the motions. At least with the ap the role was more fun. To be clear though it was me who didn’t know ho to connect and the ways I went about it with my husband, the ap, anyone, was very similiar- be who I think they want me to be.

I don’t know if that helps but I can tell you that you will never get at this with logic, and as a person who probably has mostly shown up in your authentic state, you do not know how to calculate in the idea that people lose who they are sometimes and then go out looking to escape that and be something else. The something else was a relief.

And at the time I didn’t care about myself, my life, and I couldn’t muster feelings for others around me. I was numb and as a result to a person who didn’t live in that suffocation it looks cruel and calculated at worst, and dumb at best. I think desperate is a far better word.

The only thing that kept me from trickle trust and confessing in my own was a combination of having participated in here for a couple of month, and also I was being very…self righteous? I didn’t like being the bad guy in my story and so I did it as just another role. The redeemed? Lol I was so lost and clueless.

It’s taken a long time for me to really see myself, and honestly like what I see. These are things you can not calculate with logic nor could you relate to if you haven’t experienced it. But it’s a bad use of creativity.

Please continue to speak your truth, and do not feel like the tone is a problem. It’s not- it’s where you authentically are. And that’s a good thing- to let it out and be you.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:23 PM, Wednesday, May 28th]

I wasn’t me.

As a BS, I would have a problem with this answer from my WS also.

hikingout, I understand more from your further elaboration, but I still think I would be uncomfortable with it.

I mean escapism was always my drug of choice,(always who I was?) the affair was just a manifestation of that. And I have to be vigilant not to keep transferring that need to escape into different forms. I can tell you I will not choose an affair as that route again, but I can tell you there has always been a pattern there because when you grow up in chaos it becomes a coping mechanism.

What recovery in any form boils down to (and this is the same for drug addicts, alcoholics, gamblers, anyone who uses these artificial highs to be their escape from the world) is that you have to create a life you do not want to escape from. This means learning to be authentic, yo live your values, to hold vigilance on what isn’t working and put new plans into place. To have hobbies and friends and good relationships. To be able to show up even when it’s hard.

Life does get hard. It might get hard again, and you might want to escape. I know I do. My choice of escape isn't an affair or drugs or anything mentioned above. It's isolating from people. I know that and have to watch out for that.

If my husband had a past where he once did heroin, for example, I think I would be uncomfortable if his statement about that time period was, "I wasn't me." Same with gambling, an affair, etc. Maybe it's because I can't imagine any circumstance where I would shoot up heroin or gamble away all my money that I want an acknowledgement? I would prefer that he acknowledged that he used that as a coping or escape mechanism in the past and will likely need to watch himself in the future for the tendency. I think that's the point of the AA "I'm an alcoholic" statement.

But it wouldn't be necessary for him to outright label himself a drug addict, adulterer, gambler, etc.

But I do believe I have grown from It and I do not feel it defines me nor makes it who I am. It did rock me to my core and I have had to work very hard to redefine myself and feel strongly about who I am and what I believe and to become braver and stronger in being true to myself. I have had to learn real coping mechanisms and have grown my spiritual faithS

I do not feel I was true to myself in my affair. I do not think I am any longer at my core someone who doesn’t love myself or willing to compromise myself for very poor pay offs. My values is what makes me who I am and I couldn’t have said that until years after my affair.

I appreciate you writing this and replying to everyone's posts here. If I'm piling on, I don't mean to and I apologize. I'm jusgt trying to explain my viewpoint.

I don’t mind, but when I said I wasn’t me, it’s being taken out of context because I wasn’t answering why did you cheat. I was talking about how I role played, being someone that I wasn’t.

Obviously I am the person who cheated.

I do not think my affair was an aberration, I think it was a manifestation of escapism that has spanned all my life as a coping skill and I do feel I addressed my vigilance over that. And the answers I gave were about managing life so that you have those things to lean into when things get tough.

I now know who it is I am and do not play at roles. I remember friends calling me a chameleon and they weren’t wrong. I feel like it has been such a waste of life to treat myself and others, especially my husband, the way I have. And all the bonding/connection opportunities I squandered avoiding the hard stuff. I am vigilant over the escapism, but I can squarely say that it will never culminate in an affair again.

My husband feels like it’s an aberration because in my everyday life I am a very loving, caring, empathetic, and moral person. I just think he can’t see that I didn’t have a strong sense of my values before, I only did what I thought I was "supposed to"and those two things are not the same. I feel like my confession and honesty in the aftermath was just more one of those "supposed to" sort of things yet it’s heralded here as this amazing thing. Honestly, I was too selfish back then for it not to be of selfish origins.

I will also bring up that I now have a lot of self compassion over where I have been in my journey, and sometimes just that can rub people the wrong way. I come across as a ws apologist. But I want to point out that a big sign of a good recovery is a person who holds compassion for themselves. I would be weirded out to see too much out of a new ws in that way, but someone who is a long timer should be able to express hating what they did, but holding self compassion in the same regard.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:33 PM, Wednesday, May 28th]

I'll go back to the topic's title: "Should trust be based on full truth?"

There are very few valid 'shoulds' in recovering from being betrayed. I do think R can't work without authenticity over time, and speaking truth is an integral part of being authentic.

But you ask a good question or make a good point - few WSes come clean on d-day. Few WSes stop lying on d-day. Few BSes take down all their illusions on d-day - most BSes need some time to comprehend the impact of being betrayed.

Maybe a steady increase in authenticity and reduction in lying is enough to support a successful R. I say my W hasn't lied since d-day, and she hasn't lied to me - but I know she has lied to herself. Fortunately, she does so less and less. (Mind you, I suspect I lie to myself, too, but I can't recognize those lies....) I suspect I'd have accepted some TT. I just don't know how much.

Maybe absolute truth is a goal, and a BS may have to accept a learning curve with some mistakes.

*****

You say your boundary is authenticity with you. IMO, it would be very difficult for me to allow myself to lie to some people and require honesty with others. It's just easier, IMO, to aim for honesty with everyone. OTOH, I certainly spun the truth to my mom, who I thought was excessively intrusive. But an objective observer would probably say I lied by omission to her. So ... another double standard rears its ugly head.

Can your W be honest with you even though she may not be with someone else? You know much better than anyone here does.

*****

Somewhere in my life, I decided to trust as my default. The more I get to know someone, the more I may or may not trust them, though. I tend to trust people until they do something that shows they're not trustworthy. IOW, people earn my mistrust, not my trust.

Now, after being betrayed, my default still is trust, but I've become - or made myself -comfortable knowing that I can be betrayed again by anyone at any time. If that happens, I'll have to deal with it, and I will, one way or another. IMO, that's just part of the human condition.

My W has done thousands of trust-building actions in the last 14 years and many more thousands in the 4+ decades before that. And yet she betrayed me. Will she betray me again? I'm as sure as I can be that she won't. Can she betray me again? Hell, yes.

There's no formula or checklist for building trust. It always comes down to one person deciding to trust another - or not. You hold all the power over giving your own trust to someone - and you are the only one who can exercise that power.

I don't know if my W earned trust back. Rather, I think it's more accurate to say that as her authenticity increased, as she got less co-dependent, as she answered my questions, my optimism about our M increased. As she communicated her truth with great consistency, I slowly came to trust her comms. My belief that she was again trustworthy got stronger and stronger. I now trust her implicitly ... except that I know she can betray me. That doesn't feel like cognitive dissonance to me.

But trusting your W comes down to you. You have to decide if her progress is enough for you today. If it isn't, you have to decide if she's on track to build enough trust for you to stay on the R path.

I think the best way to get truly comfortable with your power, responsibility, and risk is to give yourself permission to be wrong. After all, trust and R are about the future, and human beings are simply unable to know what the future will bring.

You say your W is getting more comfortable with the truth. That's a pretty good sign for her IMO, and for you, if you want to stay in a relationship with her....

Tray, The decisions you have to make are difficult. My reco is to have a goodly amount of faith in yourself to figure out what's best for you.

All any of us can do is to make a decision and deal with the consequences.

*****

** Member to Member **

clear explanation of the illogical mental gymnastics some individuals employ to reconcile....

Well, give us a purely logical argument that makes the vow of fidelity more important than all the other M vows combined, because that, in essence, is what you assert.

I would argue I describe integration of my W's whole being (or as much as I perceive), not compartmentalization. Compartmentalization is about separating aspects of one's life - being able to ignore one part while living in another - not thinking of one's partner while cheating, for example.

Rather, I think I describe taking many factors - as many factors as I can identify - into account and figuring out how they combine into a sum for me.

*****

I describe my process to enable a reader to decide to adopt, modify, ignore, or do the opposite of what I've done. That, I hope, helps readers figure out what is best for themself.

IMO, SI works best when members share their thoughts, experiences, feelings ... when they share themselves. There are many ways of surviving infidelity, and sharing the myriad methods people have used is a great service to newcomers. Reading about methods and variations helped me immeasurably in my first 3-4 years after d-day.

Arguments ... were less help to me. Sharing has a high percentage of light as opposed to heat; it's harder to find the light in argument. But I'll argue against bad logic. I'll argue against over-generalization. I'll argue against one size fits all.

Personally I have decided that any inauthentic behavior from my W in regards to ME is automatic end to R.

I found authenticity was the way back for our R -- but it did take some time to get to full on authentic, for both of us.

My wife is conflict avoidant, raised by the most conflict avoidant family I've ever witnessed. No conversation with them ever goes deeper than the weather. That approach or lack of approach to communication was a substantive factor leading up to the A and after the A, with the idea she was never going to tell me (what I don't know can't hurt me, right?).

With that avoidance history in mind, I gave my wife a little more room to grow and get there. I mean called out the lie of omission every time, I just knew she needed some time to understand that no matter how difficult the truth is, it is way better for me to know, than for her to 'hope' I figure it out.

I also held back some to start, built up some walls that made it harder for R and for her during R, and that's why it takes a while for both people to feel good enough about themselves and the relationship to fully re-commit to it.

Strangely, the first time I thought we had a chance to put things back together, is the way my wife reacted to being called a liar.

In all other things in life, she banked on her honesty. We were super transparent parents along the way, and my wife excelled in work, because she was always straight up with her employees or management. Honesty was her thing, her identity -- save one corner of her existence that she hoped the world would never know.

Of all the things I said in anger, of all the things I snapped back with, the one that landed was my constant questioning of her integrity.

That's kind of when I decided good people can choose poorly and do bad things, that humans as author Robert Heinlein essentially observed, that humans are not rationale beings, but are rationalizing beings. Some WS are bad people doing bad things, that's also a thing, but I do think some of fail and fall when and where we least expect it. It's how we own those bad decisions or learn from them that make the difference.

Toxic households are dangerous. To a child living in one is terrifying. They learn to duck and lie to save their lives. Your wife needs EMDR to bring up everything from birth on and let the sunshine on it. Once the history is out there then intense talk therapy is needed. You will need to be part of the process because you need to be up front when you know she is lying. You don’t have to be confrontational but you do have to ask her to rephrase the statement.

There is another way to do this but it calls for super human effort on your part. I learned this studying psychology in college. You simply act as if she is not speaking to you. You have no response. Nothing. No sigh, no raised brows, no shrug, nothing. If she expects a response and you don’t give her one she has several ways to act. She can repeat what she said verbatim. She can ask if you heard her, or she can get angry. You still do not respond unless she says it without the lie. If she says it without the lie you respond immediately. It will be exhausting for you because you cannot tell her what you are doing. You are going about your life NOT responding to lies. If you see some positive changes they should come in 2/3 weeks. If not off to the IC which she needs anyway

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 9:14 PM, Wednesday, May 28th]

Well, give us a purely logical argument that makes the vow of fidelity more important than all the other M vows combined, because that, in essence, is what you assert.

Apologies, risk of drifting off topic but I don't want this characterisation of my thoughts left unanswered. It seems there might be a misunderstanding. I have never asserted the point you're attributing to me and therefore wouldn't make that argument.

You appear to be making a fallacy by assuming that because I've previously stated my belief that infidelity nullifies a relationship – a widely held view, as evidenced by writings on rebuilding a marriage through R – that I therefore believe fidelity is the most important vow. This is not my position.

There are many other equally important vows that, if broken, could also nullify a relationship. For example abandonment. I think it's fair to divorce if your partner sees fit to up a leave with no explanation for a period of time. I have never placed a value judgment on which vows are more significant than others.

In fact, quite the opposite, I've pushed back when other users have argued that fidelity isn't as important as other vows and thus they wouldn't end their marriage solely due to infidelity if other aspects of the relationship were functional. Those are the people placing value judgements on vows.

I guess the best analogy I could come up with to clarify this would be: in the legal system, where a multitude of offenses can lead to imprisonment. A judge wouldn't dismiss a case simply because the defendant hasn't committed every possible crime on the statute books. Similarly, while infidelity isn't the only breach of marital vows that could lead to divorce, the fact that it has occurred can be considered a sufficient 'offense' to warrant ending the relationship, even if other vows remain unbroken. It's not about a hierarchy of offenses, but about the consequence of a specific, significant transgression

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 11:27 PM, Wednesday, May 28th]

** Member to Member **

I have never asserted the point you're attributing to me and therefore wouldn't make that argument.

Of course you didn't take that position. You depend on your ability to disavow anything you seem to have written. Parsing your statements, however, makes much of your thinking apparent. IOW, you wouldn't say what you say unless you believed something like propositions X, Y, and Z.

You appear to be making a fallacy by assuming ... that I therefore believe fidelity is the most important vow. This is not my position.

Thank you for clarifying your position. Why not state what you believe clearly instead of waiting to be misinterpreted?

******

You use terms that imply strength when you write of D and weakness when you refer to R. The terms you use open a window into your mind. You make assertions in abstract terms. You call yourself 'logical'.

In the above post, you say, in essence, that if a partner violates any vow, ending the M is the best thing to do.

OK. Defend that logically.

*****

Your judge/defendant analogy doesn't do it for me.

I see relationships between imperfect human beings as imperfect 'squared'. I believe principles often collide. That is, IMO, applying one principle in a situation often requires violating a different principle. If our errors define us, then, almost all of us are forced to violate 'laws' of human relationships some of the time. If the judge/defendant analogy holds true, all relationships should end before they generally do, when a partner violates a principle.

But the analogy probably isn't true, because most of us forgive and are forgiven on a weekly -maybe daily or hourly - basis.

IMO, on d-day, a BS can honor the 'forsake all others' (which isn't always part of the vows) only by violating the 'better or worse' vow. And if fidelity isn't an explicit vow, then one violates 'better or worse' if they D because of the infidelity. The BS has no way of adhering to all vows. They just have a choice of which ones to violate.

I can still picture W & me on d-day. I still see her as 'sick'. So I had to violate 'sickness or health' or a vow of fidelity that was implicit at most. What's the more moral choice? What choice is more practical? What choice is more likely to succeed?

I was in the sitch I was in. No one else was. I didn't know the answer to my 3 questions - and those were just 3 of what seemed like unending questions. How could anyone else know the answers?

Logic says to me that no one can know the course of action that will work best for someone else, even when that person is a close friend.

How does your logic tell you you know enough from a few words in an anonymous forum to know what's best for another anonymous writer on the web?

Hint: if your answer isn't some variation of, 'I get it. I see it's impossible,' you're kidding yourself and your readers. If you think you do know what best for someone else, you're relying on emotion, not logic.

Personally, I knew I had to make my own choices on and after d-day. No one else could make my choices for me. So I don't presume to tell anyone else what to do except to accept responsibility for making their own choices - and to have some faith in themself.

SI helped me most by helping me figure out my own path to getting through infidelity. That help came via members offering emotional support and sharing what did and didn't work for them.

From what I understand about human behavior, logic tells me that's the best that one person can do for another in most situations.

*****

I have never placed a value judgment on which vows are more significant than others.

In fact, quite the opposite, I've pushed back when other users have argued that fidelity isn't as important as other vows and thus they wouldn't end their marriage solely due to infidelity if other aspects of the relationship were functional.

The 2rd statement is at odds with the 1st.

In the 2nd statement, you assert that infidelity is at least as important as the other vows. In the 1st, you assert that you don't place different values on the vows.

We can avoid placing values on choices. Without placing such values, how would we ever decide?

Emotions always rule. You - we - use logic to justify emotional choices.

*****

After 14+ years on SI, I finally understand that I read 'one size fits all' and 'D should be the BS's default' as someone telling me what to do. I rebel against that.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:15 PM, Thursday, May 29th]

Emotions always rule. You - we - use logic to justify emotional choices.

I agree with all your points and I found myself nodding my head here. I especially find this evident in confirmation basis. I find confirmation bias fascinating because over the years as some members have been prolific posters like myself will draw a completely different conclusion from reading in this site that I do. And my confirmation bias is certainly there that I believe if the two people both want to make it work, then it will despite the details we all find abhorrent or unreconcilable.

Then, I thought about the statement I highlighted further, well it’s really more complicated than it’s stated.

Our emotions are often based on narratives we make about what is happening. This involves our logic, beliefs, intuition, and our general perceptions. All of us have these things in various degrees of development.

I generally think that if I wanted advice about divorce, I would go to divorced members. If I want advice about reconciliation, I maybe less incline to go to a divorced member only because they can only project the experience.

I think with dr. S, he has a hard time even imagining the R experience and therefore can’t wrap his mind around it.

Though what he said about you seeing your wife’s affair as an aberration, I would assert there was much logic in what you were saying- after all you knew your wife for three decades or more when the affair occurred, you watched what she did in the aftermath and have now known her- what 12 or 13 years after her affair? I think it’s completely logical you understand her baseline, and have the knowledge and authority to say this was a one off that is unlikely to occur again, and she has grown from it.

So what I find illogical is for someone to think that is illogical. After all, my husband can tell you what I am going to do or say next to an uncanny level - the other day he drove me to Dairy Queen before I could ask him.

I think of I were to find common ground between you and Dr. S. Or myself and dr. S- it’s that we do wish for what’s best for the bs.

I think our longer time here has simply taught us that we do not claim to know what that is outside of the bs focusing on what it is they want and need and their own healing. But maybe that’s our confirmation bias after seeing the complexity one is faced with and the many who divorced or reconciled when we thought the opposite would happen. And the acknowledgment it worked out perfectly for them.

But I do not think I posted that way earlier in my time here, and I think I have seen Dr. S make some shifts since he has arrived.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:15 PM, Thursday, May 29th]

Of course you didn't take that position. You depend on your ability to disavow anything you seem to have written.

You've mentioned several times that you find my posts difficult to understand. While I haven't noticed other users expressing the same confusion, and I've even had clear disagreements with HikingOut without this issue, I acknowledge that our communication styles might simply not align.
However, the suggestion that this perceived lack of clarity is a deliberate tactic to obscure a bias feels like a projection, especially since it hasn't been apparent in my interactions with others

Thank you for clarifying your position. Why not state what you believe clearly instead of waiting to be misinterpreted?

What beliefs? What specifically would you like to know? Here's a run down or some of my general beliefs on infidelity:

* For someone with my temperament, beliefs, and principles, reconciliation after infidelity is unlikely to lead to positive outcomes.
* Generally, I believe divorce offers the quickest path to recovery, though this is highly dependent on individual circumstances and personality.
* Conversely, many individuals are likely better suited to reconciliation than divorce.
* The weight given to reconciliation should vary depending on the circumstances. For example, it might be more reasonable in a newly married couple with no children and financial independence than in a long-term marriage with young children and financial dependency.
* I view infidelity as a form of abuse and as such special considerations are required.

These are some of my general beliefs, many of which seem to resonate with other users here.

If you're looking for a more controversial stance such you can attack me, I do have a couple:

* I often believe people pursue reconciliation out of fear, justifying this choice with what appears to be irrational rationalization. This isn't always the case, of course, but it's a pattern I've observed.
* I think some highly principled individuals might choose divorce because they feel obligated to, even if they possess the capacity to reconcile successfully.
* In certain situations, I believe revenge affairs can be justifiable.

Does this address your question? Is there anything else you'd like to know?

You use terms that imply strength when you write of D and weakness when you refer to R. The terms you use open a window into your mind

Either you have an uncanny ability to analyze my psyche based on a few posts that have bothered you, or you're projecting your own interpretations onto my language.
In my view:

* More empathetic and emotionally inclined individuals with a forgiving nature are more likely to pursue reconciliation.
* More logical, principled, and perhaps more independent individuals are more inclined towards divorce.
If you interpret these distinct characteristics as representing strength and weakness, that's your prerogative. I see them simply as different personality types with varying responses to infidelity.

In the above post, you say, in essence, that if a partner violates any vow, ending the M is the best thing to do. OK. Defend that logically

That's not what I said at all, and frankly, I'm becoming quite frustrated by what feels like an intentional misreading of my posts. I stated that breaking many vows (which I used synonymously with significant marital agreements) can be reasonable grounds for divorce. This is not the same as saying that breaking any vow necessitates divorce as the best option.

I'm not going to revisit the justice analogy. It was a poorly executed attempt to clarify my perspective when I felt you weren't understanding me, and clearly, it didn't achieve its goal.

Emotions always rule. You - we - use logic to justify emotional choices

I simply disagree with this assertion. Consider this example:

If someone says, "I deeply love my spouse, but my lifelong principle is that infidelity is a deal-breaker. This has been a consistent belief throughout my life and our relationship." If they then choose divorce based on this principle, how is that using logic to justify an emotional choice? They may deeply desire reconciliation, but their principles are too fundamental to compromise.

For some, believe it or not, principles are a tier higher than emotional whim.

While I initiated this discussion and take responsibility for that, I feel there's a significant communication breakdown between us, and I'm not sure how to bridge that gap.

For what it's worth, I find your advice and posts likely very helpful for readers who are more emotionally driven. However, it seems you may not fully acknowledge or understand perspectives from those who are more pragmatically inclined – to the point where I wonder if you even believe such perspectives exist.

I believe my posts will likely resonate more with individuals who share this pragmatic temperament.

@HikingOut

I think with dr. S, he has a hard time even imagining the R experience and therefore can’t wrap his mind around it.

I agree that reconciliation is an avenue that doesn't resonate with me personally. I do recognize that my mindset isn't universal, and I understand the types of mindsets that are more conducive to successful reconciliation. Ultimately, I strive to write objectively, keeping this in mind, although I'm sure I don't always succeed perfectly.

what he said about you seeing your wife’s affair as an aberration, I would assert there was much logic in what you were saying- after all you knew your wife for three decades or more when the affair occurred, you watched what she did in the aftermath and have now known her- what 12 or 13 years after her affair? I think it’s completely logical you understand her baseline, and have the knowledge and authority to say this was a one off that is unlikely to occur again, and she has grown from it. So what I find illogical is for someone to think that is illogical

My point wasn't that he was unaware of his own wife's baseline. Rather, I found the idea of mentally separating his wife into two distinct versions – one to demonize and one to preserve – illogical, even though it might be a helpful coping mechanism in reconciliation. My reasoning is that it's still the same individual, regardless of their actions or perceived "version."

However, since sisoon has offered further clarification on their comment, this point may no longer be relevant.

I think of I were to find common ground between you and Dr. S. Or myself and dr. S- it’s that we do wish for what’s best for the bs.

Agreed, I believe all three of us share the common goal of wanting the best outcome for the betrayed spouse.

But I do not think I posted that way earlier in my time here, and I think I have seen Dr. S make some shifts since he has arrived.

I'd be interested to hear more about your observations on this, but I feel that delving further would constitute thread jacking, and I won't be posting more on this particular tangent.

Agree- we should move off threadjacking, though in some ways we are having a philosophical conversation that does align with the title but not so much the op’s intent.

I will respond, and then if anyone wants more information I am happy to discuss elsewhere.

* More empathetic and emotionally inclined individuals with a forgiving nature are more likely to pursue reconciliation.

* More logical, principled, and perhaps more independent individuals are more inclined towards divorce.

This is a very narrow and inaccurate depiction, and is at the heart as to why several people have said to you that you believe people who r are softer, and the way you describe it does lend itself to believe you do have a stance in what is strong and what is weak. Maybe it’s unconscious because you see yourself in solely one group, and I think that part is fine.

Truthfully, I think many people who R are independent thinkers. Highly Codependent people have a hard time reconciling a lot of times because in order to do it the codependency has to shift more towards independence. I would agree highly codependent people may be more likely to rug sweep and stay married, but likely remain somewhat unhealed and unhappy.

My husband is not at all the codependent type. He is also not particularly empathetic or forgiving. He is very matter of fact and subscribes greatly to stoicism. I just think he has ultimately different values than you do. I would classify him as highly logical and principled. Despite his ws status- because he demonstrates that in so many ways in his life.

All the bs on this site that did reconcile that I can recollect, took charge, required a lot more, and was willing to lose the marriage if those requirements were not met.

And as for divorce, I think many of the bs who did that are more the forgiving, empathetic type, but left due to their ws’s overall issues before or after the infidelity.

I recall very few who divorced out of the gate, but those who did have shown to have mixed results. Some still carried the wounds and that was obvious in their posts. Others maybe sound a lot like you.

To be forgiving or empathetic is a strength.

Advocating for oneself is a strength.

And a heck of a lot of bs’s here would have a mixture of these two personalities you just wrote about.

As far as the shift, I think you have opened your mind to the idea that some people do reconcile and are happy. You may be more inclined to believe that it’s rare- but a lot of people on this site think that, yet we have probably as many reconciled members as we so divorced ones, if not more.

All I care about is we have healed ones. I believe no matter where you fall in the spectrum of these two points you can heal if that is your goal. If your goal is only to stay married or only to get a divorce out of the gate there will be adjustments as you go along almost in all circumstances. Someone divorcing right after finding out, in my anecdotal reading is what is most rare, because it’s ALWAYs rocked by emotions in the earlier days.

My point wasn't that he was unaware of his own wife's baseline. Rather, I found the idea of mentally separating his wife into two distinct versions – one to demonize and one to preserve – illogical, even though it might be a helpful coping mechanism in reconciliation. My reasoning is that it's still the same individual, regardless of their actions or perceived "version."

I will let Sissoon respond to this, but in my mind you are greatly misinterpreting him.

What he is describing isn’t a separation of who his wife was. He is saying that she basically came to a point in life the way she was conducting herself came to a head. He calls it a sickness, and for those of us who had an affair born of an existential crisis, I believe that is the best thing a close witness could call it.

I said "not being myself" and people took that as me claiming like I had some alter ego, like one that is villain and one that’s is good and infallible. In reality I wasn’t talking about what I am about to talk about, I was referring to me trying out a different role.

But literally my husband knew I was mentally sick. I had been in the midst of what we used to call a nervous breakdown but it’s now called emotional exhaustion. Within months of being diagnosed the affair started. I do not use this as an excuse for my decisions because I wasn’t mentally insane. I had suicidal ideations and was very depressed before the affair and worse after. Quite literally I was sick. I was crying all the time, which in my normal day to day life I am smiling, joyful, positive. You won’t catch me talking about those things much because it just doesn’t excuse my behavior. It does explain how someone can be different than their baseline though.

So if he is saying his wife was sick, I read it to be she was in a very bad place same as me. I do not claim that all or even a majority of affairs are born of crisis, but plenty are. I am saying this mostly in the context of explaining two specific situations.

I have never seen him excuse her behavior. she went through and did the work and I think what he is describing is just the way he witnessed her brokenness.

I do enjoy engaging with people of different mindsets, but I do see what Sissoon is saying because largely you do believe most people who reconcile are just afraid. (Weak?) That’s not true, reconciling is scary, raw, and incredibly difficult. As is divorce. Both require independent thinking, I mean there is a stigma that shouldn’t be there in bs’s who take back a cheater in our society. I think it’s brave that they go for what they want to do despite that stigma.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:27 PM, Thursday, May 29th]