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If we ultimately decide to go our separate ways, I do not want financial, legal, or emotional entanglements to be the reason I stay.

Maybe change "we" to "I" and take back your agency. You are in control of your own life. You don't require permission for your choices to be acceptable.

*"If either or both of us decide to go our separate ways..."

It takes two to tango. Both people need to want to be there for it to work. Either spouse can decide to end the marriage unilaterally at any time and for any reason, where no-fault divorce is legal.

(Not to be like "Well acktshually..." but for accuracy's sake...)

I do not think I am comfortable accepting this treatment. I think I developed an extremely high tolerance for chaos and learned very early in life that loving someone meant enduring pain, trying harder, and refusing to abandon them.

Gemmy, I hope this is something you're going to be working on in therapy, constantly being in survival mode.

I took a very different approach in life. I developed a tendency to avoid conflict and build walls. I have a very low tolerance for chaos. I can easily ghost people, no matter how much I might love them. Maybe that's another survival mode. I see it as preserving my peace at any cost.

Refusing to abandon your wife is somewhat noble of you. There's a precarious element however. As an analogy...

I've been a swimmer all of my life. I was on swim teams from grade school through high school. I've been a certified life guard and (in the Navy) a teacher. I've saved a couple of people from drowning. Through all of my training, every instructor has drilled it into my head that while trying to save a life there is a very real danger that a desperate and panicked person terrified of drowning can, and will, take me down with them. I knew that I might have to let someone drown in order to preserve my own life.

Your wife is drowning. You can try to save her, if you're so inclined, but she can, and will, take you down with her.

Gemmy,

What is the current living situation in your home? I know you are pressing forward on the divorce which I applaud you for but I get the feeling you are in some sort of in-home separation? I get this feeling when you recently posted about your WW leaving for 6 days. First, why did she leave-- vacation, bad argument...what??? Second, how did you feel while she was gone for 6 days? Relieved? Stressed?

I ask these questions because from your postings it appears that you and your WW are still living together and are having frequent conversations about her affairs and your marriage history. Your WW, at one point, did not want a divorce but understood and accepted the divorce was happening. I take it she is still fighting to remain with you? (Albeit in a clumsy and ignorant way that does not help you heal in a meaningful manner.)

By having these frequent conversations with your WW who simply does not get it, I hope you realize nothing productive will come from it. These past several months, you've been stuck conducting a thorough 'autopsy' on the death of your marriage and coming to understand the manner and means of its death being her affairs. You have written eloquently regarding your thoughts and feelings (hell, you have enough material for a book.. seriously after everything has ended you may want to explore being published) But I haven't seen you write anything about the future and your plans...

Can I recommend instead, you turn your attention to the future after your divorce? Have you made any plans? What's the living situation going to be? Any dreams you want to explore-- new career, vacation, hobbies, making new friends??? Turn your attention away from your WW and completely detach. Take some time to be by yourself... keep your contact with your STBXW limited to texts only regarding your kids' exchanges. For gods' sake do not jump immediately into Reconciliation, now or even soon after the divorce... she hasn't earned that gift, and probably never will. Get out of the depressing morose of examining the marriage and your WW's actions and get excited about the future. Think of the dead weight you will be shedding when your WW leaves... use her "It was only 5 people" statement as a motivation to move forward in your life, think of her statement every time she texts or calls you... hell, change her name in your phone to "Fucker of Five" so you are reminded of it every time she attempts contact with you.

Look forward to the future with excitement Gemmy. Almost any woman you date in the future is going to be morally superior to your wife in every meaningful way. At this point, it's just numbers and odds leading to a sure bet lock as possible. Let "Fucker of Five" wear the self-imposed scarlet letter and live with looking at herself in the mirror while you move on to living a better life with better people in it.

I'm going to give you some advice, said (partially) tongue-in-cheek.

When the simping stops, the pimping starts.

This was a bit to shock you a bit to break your thought pattern and make you laugh. I'm not really calling you a chump or anything. But your WW, man.....a better life awaits you after D.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 1:25 PM, Saturday, July 25th]

IDK, Gemmy. D usually means an end to a relationship. My reading (on SI and elsewhere) tells me it's the splitting internally - saying 'goodbye' to the M relationship - that frees a person from their former partners. The D is not just a piece of paper.

D as a prereq for R ... not exactly a complete split, at least IMO. What you're proposing may work, but my reco is to talk about your plan in therapy and be ready to adjust.

D usually means an end to a relationship.

Relationships never end, they merely transform.

Ink. I truly value your opinion and I’m in no way looking to argue 😊. Just thinking out loud here…..

Divorce is a long and expensive process.

In most cases it is. Just a thought: if she’s truly remorseful and immediately goes along with a fair/legal settlement, via mediation, could it possibly be something less than a full-octane traumatic experience?

It has deep meaning to others in our social circles, most importantly the children, but family and friends as well.

Again, just a thought: by the completion of the D, perhaps it becomes more clear whether she has become a legit candidate for R by way of miraculous inner transformation. If so, they stay together physically, and there’s not actually a monumental shift in life for everyone. On the other hand, if by this time she’s not changed, not a candidate for R (I’m thinking of your XW Ink), then I hope we could agree he’s better off. Yes ofc the D would impact everyone, but that’s on OP’s wife - not him whatsoever.

Divorcing and then considering R certainly could be done, but if it’s done as a symbolic consequence to the WS, there is a lot of collateral damage. I hardly regard it as an obvious choice.

Absolutely not a symbolic move. My reasoning is in the previous para. Just thinking out loud here.

If this becomes a thread jack, please feel free to shut it down, Gemmy.

In most cases it is. Just a thought: if she’s truly remorseful and immediately goes along with a fair/legal settlement, via mediation, could it possibly be something less than a full-octane traumatic experience?

"Fair" is an incredibly loaded word when dividing up assets that your future life plans are tied to. Thinking like this is conflating her love for OP with her own lifelong self preservation, that if she is willing to gamble everything she has it demonstrates her love. Sounds like the KISA nonsense we’re trying to talk him out of. It just adds more volatility and complexity to the situation, IMO. Let her come back as a dignified partner, not a boot licker.

Again, just a thought: by the completion of the D, perhaps it becomes more clear whether she has become a legit candidate for R by way of miraculous inner transformation.

He’s already filed and is in the required waiting process. What if she has the miraculous transformation next week? Would you still think that he should split the retirement accounts, change the name of deeds on the house, take out loans to buy her out of equity or sell the only home the children know?

From Gemmy’s descriptions, she is not close to a good R candidate right now, but he still is holding out some hope. All I’m saying is that if the miracle comes, there is no shame in canceling the legal proceedings.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 7:32 PM, Saturday, July 25th]