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In our talk today my wife indicated that she was really frustrated that I did not have much response to some of her comments in our last talk. She indicated that she realized they were topics we had discussed many times before and she does not know what she would want me to say, but that the lack of response frustrated her and triggered the question of if I even get it. I talked to my therapist in IC last week about this and she indicated sometime just being a witness to her pain is all that I will be able to do. The therapist had a few suggestions for what I might say. I ran a few past my wife in our discussion today and she said she is pretty sure she would get physically violent of I said any of those (she was joking about the violence, but very serious that she thought those sounded condescending).

We both agree that we have talked about the affair enough that we are only revisiting the same topics. I fully disclosed everything so nothing left I can tell her about the affair itself. Wondering what others WS have found effective and what other BS wanted to hear when you get to this stage.

That’s a tough one. Generally rote responses that you tell her about ahead of time would come off as patronizing.

She is wanting more sincere responses from you. And I don’t think you can wear out identifying with someone in the moment. Even if you’ve made apologies for them. Don’t take any of these down as rote responses, but as examples:

Make a specific apology. It doesn’t matter if you have said it before.

Restate for her what you are hearing from her. Ask follow up questions.

Break some shit together, go to smash room even.

Say the things again. It’s her trauma response that is making her cover the same ground over and over. Don’t let her feel alone in that even though it seems unnecessarily repetitive.

One thing is for sure though, this sounds like you are being authentic and maybe not so doused in shame that you aren’t able to stand in these moments? Is that true? Because that’s progress.

You just have to be careful not to leave her behind or make her feel silly for being so repetitive that she starts holding it in. Always remind yourself if she is staying open with you and showing you how her mind is working that does serve a purpose in you consistently providing emotional safety. This helps builds trust.

Look it gets exhausting for both of you. You would take it away if you could so that helpless/hopeless feeling can be very hard to cope with. She gets tired of the loop and would love to exit, but she cannot. Rest when you can rest. Help her rest when you can. This stage is normal and cannot be helped, skipped, etc.

I would reccomend maybe reading a book on what trauma does to the brain and that knowledge will better equip you. This does tend to wane around a year and then there are new stages that start.

Provide reassurances however you can in between. Pick up her favorite treat, set out fresh flowers, plan some things she can look forward to, pick up some of her chores. Some of the things you do outside of these bouts can be helpful and reassuring for her. Because one of the things that can make it worse is when she feels like her grief is becoming a burden to you. It’s a huge burden to her and that will lead her to projecting that you must feel that way about her. Not sure if you are there yet but that can happen and is common. You have to bring her the lightness to help her deal with the burden.

I would plan concert dates because my husband loves music, plan weekend trips where we could start having shared experiences that didn’t involve long horrendous talks, it was a great reminder of our connection and some of the activities would allow us to have some mental rest. We took hikes and spent time in nature together. That can not only provide a mental respite but the activity itself help bring in some endorphins.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:24 PM, Monday, February 2nd]

I found my W's A was so disorienting that I had to hear about it again and again. The first time I heard, I took in a few facts. The 2nd time, I took in a few more facts. The 3rd time, a few more. Etc. Etc. Etc.

What Sisoon said. It's so shocking when you find out about something like this, it alters your whole view of your relationship, the other person, the experiences you've had in life, your potential future - it's like an earthquake that just alters the whole terrain and you have to find out where the earth slipped and where the solid ground is now. So to make it real and process it, sometimes you have to go over it again and again and again - I think the more of a cognitive dissonance thing it is - how can my wonderful, loving spouse do....blah blah blah, it's unbelievable. So it can take time not only to absorb what happened but to have some ways of responding because the responses themselves can vary - one day it might be rage, another fear, another sorrow - so many things this brings up often from the bottom of your soul. It's takes time to absorb, it takes time to process, it takes time to re-adjust and decide what to do. It's a fundamental change in one's life....like discovering you're actually the kidnapped child of Queen Elizabeth, or something like that. It's not just an event....it's life changing. And I think many of us do get sick of thinking or talking about it, but how else do you integrate it as a fact of life and figure out how to deal with it without that. So as tedious as it is, it's kind of like exercising an injured body part....you keep doing it till it seems to heal, if it does.

I think it might be useful for Waywards to consider it like this - what seems like events to the Wayward, things that may not even have a lot of meaning to them, or might be fun, or entertainment or a supplement to the marriage or whatever view the WS might have, it's something that literally alters the REALITY OF OUR LIVES to a BS. How we look at our spouse, our relationship, our past experiences, how we regard our future, how can we trust someone who lies so well and often - so long - to us. It alters reality itself, it's not just an experience that you had. If you can imagine a BS saying....well, so my WS actually IS a reptilian after all, hmmmmm...... It's not an enclosed experience, it shatters reality itself and how we view this person and ourselves and many other things. That's what makes it so bad and so hard to recover from.

It may help to know he posted back to back- the post about why details matter - which is where a lot of us talked about why the need to go over it over and over again. I am not sure if this post is looking for the same explanation. I am not pointing it out because anyone said a wrong thing, but to maybe help his responses get him not the why, which was the other question but how do you manage it?

Both sides of the fence get fatigued bit by different things. He feels he has responded to the reaction many times, at some point you start saying, what am I not doing? I don’t know another response. Listening doesn’t see to be enough to fit the bill, how do you sta authentic while giving your partner that shared experience they are hoping for? It’s not a shared experience because both are experiencing it differently but shared in empathy and being able to fully show the bs you understand them and offer the proper connection.

I don’t think any ws are perfect at this but the effort matters a lot. I restated a lot to make sure he felt like I did hear him and interpreted him.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:11 PM, Monday, February 2nd]

"It's deja vu all over again."
- Yogi Berra

You've been warned that she will ask the same or similar questions over and over again. When she's done asking questions then, and only then, have you discussed it enough. In the meantime, answer every question as well as you can no matter how many times you have said the same things.

There is no way to avoid this without avoiding reconciliation. There are no tricks, no pacification or emelioration. There is only openness and honesty.

Be patient!

This is just a part of the process.

Get it?

The one thing my H could do that would help me, is to bring up the topic on his own occasionally. Answering questions is great, but it would really mean something to me if he took the initiative to discuss things that he might think I would want to know. I'm guessing he doesn't because he hates to see the hurt, but honestly it would comfort me to know that he was thinking about it. Digging deeper.

Reading this, I really wish there was an active directory of therapist who are actually vested with their clients/patients. Being a witness to a loved one's pain hardly seems like an effective strategy.

I should have been more clear in my original post. Definitely do not mind and even encourage the repeated questions. The way sisoon describes his experience resonates with my wife. Many times she has started a question with "I know I have asked this before, but do not remember what you said".

I have repeatedly told my wife that there is no time or quantity limit on any topics or questions and fully expect the discussions like we are having now to go on for several more months / years.

My specific question in this post is how people responded when the discussion is less questions and more a revisit of the pain she is feeling. The questions about details are actually a relatively small part of what we discuss.

Hikingout's response was very helpful. I do worry about apologizing repeatedly, but a specific apology that is targeted at the specific pain she is expressing seems to land better than a more general apology. My wife is very gracious and she often acknowledges that she knows how sorry I am.

Also appreciate Trumansworld response about being proactive. My wife has also indicated the same and need to be better about that.

I can tell you something more.

What are words?
They are a tool to communicate a feeling or need in a synthetic way.

You can communicate the same with non-verbal, sometimes is better, sometimes is even faster.

Words are important because they hit the conscious mind.
Non verbals are important because they talk to our instinct and subconscious first.

Behaviors, connections, body language, even just looks to each other, they are all non verbal.
If you can somehow sync both into what you feel, you will see that not everything was said just yet. You may use the same words, but you will say to her so much more.

Friend....

Validate her experience.

Validate her feelings and pain.

Express deep regret, remorse, and sorrow for what you did.

State your love.

State your hatred for what you did.

State your commitment to help heal her heart.

And do it over, and over, and over....don't stop until it stops organically.

Do these things and she will not think you don't say enough.

[This message edited by WoodThrush2 at 11:59 PM, Tuesday, February 3rd]

The one thing my H could do that would help me, is to bring up the topic on his own occasionally. Answering questions is great, but it would really mean something to me if he took the initiative to discuss things that he might think I would want to know. I'm guessing he doesn't because he hates to see the hurt, but honestly it would comfort me to know that he was thinking about it. Digging deeper.

I like this response as a bit of practical advice.

It's not natural for a WS to want to bring up the affair trauma on their own. The WS assumes that this will just bring up additional pain for the BS. But the reality is that, in the earlier stages, the BS is likely already thinking about the betrayal all the time. For your BS to know that you are also sharing in their pain is really valuable.

My wife couldn't do this - she basically just wanted everything to go back to how it was as quickly as possible.
But looking back, if she had been proactive in any of the discussions, it would have made a big difference. Her not doing that left me with the feeling that I was doing all of the heavy lifting in our R. You don't want your spouse to have that feeling.

I told my husband that I feel that on DDay I suddenly woke up into a life where all the characters are the same but the storyline is completely different.

Nothing of my life before DDay was true anymore. None of it.

I discovered I lived in one life, he in another.

The shock and grief alone wiped out my ability to deal with normal day to day things. I would find myself driving past my destinations. I would forget to eat. I found myself staring into space for…hours?…I don’t know.

What I needed and did not get:

-the truth, all of it, openly and honestly, immediately and not trickle truthed
-him to initiate the conversations
-him to find a therapist who would help him get past his shame and open up to me
-no gaslighting
-no semantic games when I asked a question
-no lying
-a written timeline of all affairs
-when I asked a question, a complete answer that contained information beyond the confines of the question; elaborate responses to include thought processes, emotions, dates, places, conversations with AP, etc., not just a limited response to the question at hand when he knew I wanted more information
-no blaming me
-an apology
-no lovebombing
-his initiation of no contact and keeping it
-a letter he writes to AP to explain that there will be no contact, and that what they did was wrong
-him to initiate his own changes by reading about infidelity, understanding why he did what he did, and making personal growth
-him to truly comprehend what impact this had on me as a human being, and express this to me so that I know he knows.

I am 32 months out. Still waiting on some of this.

My WW stopped talking about the affair 5 years out. 5 years I looped and looped and looped some more. The resentment I have for that decision is with me today. But I get why she did it. I was going nowhere. I think the hardest thing betrayed spouses end up coming to terms with is they need to heal themselves from something you did to them. And most don't know where to start. I'm 12 years out and EDMR is my next stop. I've exhausted the questions, I've analyzed the responses. But nothing makes it go away. For years I just kept my mind busy. Trying to make it go away. It simply doesn't. If she asks, be truthful and be consistent. Deviations bring more questions and intrusive thoughts. I like the idea of you bringing it up to her. I think my wife has only done that a handful of times. But if she brought it up and said Im sorry. And did that repetitively I think that would have gone along way in decreasing healing time and intrusive thoughts. Shame and guilt seem to hamper a wayward from doing that regularly. My wife's go to now seems to be"When you know better you do better" I was always in the camp that said you tell them everything they want to know. I'm not so sure now. A lot of therapists kind of say "Yes tell them but with compassion" I didn't understand it at first. And believed them to be incorrect. The most insignificant things stick. My wife said he smelt nice. It never left me. She says that to me now and I cringe inside. So I now believe be consistent. State the facts. And do not get frustrated or exasperated. But use some discretion. What you say stays forever. I don't know if at some point we betrayed aren't painshopping. So used of being in the loop we continue looping because it becomes familiar and safe to do so. Trying to ensure we know everything so we feel like it can never happen again. But something doesn't feel right so start the loop again. It becomes familiar. And if you show your sorry it means I'm not suffering for nothing. The betrayed spouse that reconciles is
taking an enormous gamble. Something I think the wayward sometimes forgets. Trauma is trying to ensure it never happens again.

I needed to hear the story and ask the same questions over and over almost nightly. I needed to hear him explain what he was feeling and thinking in every situation, again and again. If your spouse needs to talk or asks the same question over and over or maybe wants to hear your version for the 1000 th time, give it to her. I promise whatever pain or discomfort you feel in doing so doesn’t hold a candle to hers. Just do it.

I needed to hear the story and ask the same questions over and over almost nightly. I needed to hear him explain what he was feeling and thinking in every situation, again and again. If your spouse needs to talk or asks the same question over and over or maybe wants to hear your version for the 1000 th time, give it to her. I promise whatever pain or discomfort you feel in doing so doesn’t hold a candle to hers. Just do it.

It is also a need to feel your partner cares truly for the damage they have done, that you are not alone with the pain they caused you, while they are moving on and forgetting.

Is not as much about the words or the sordid details, is about trusting they are committing to mend the damage and wounds they have inflicted.

What to say when everything has been said?
Anything, or everything again.

What you are truly saying is "I care about this, I care about you. I care Now".
What you say is far less important than what you "say" by bringing it up.

Is connection, not apology

Maybe there needs to be an acceptance that even when everything has been said and "technically" dealt with there is still pain.
It’s sort-of like if you break a leg. You have the bones set, get the surgery, do the weeks in a cast and then the physiotherapy afterwards. For the first part you might be on strong painkillers, but then down to less potent and eventually you simply accept the slight pain post-physiotherapy. Everybody expects and understands this pain. Then maybe a year or two later – when technically you are "healed" – you still feel pain after sitting for an hour in a car, or when climbing stairs. Maybe not the intense pain, but still pain. A reminder about what happened.

I think a key factor is acknowledging that pain exists and can come back at any time and that it’s real.
Like – if your wife asks you to revisit a certain event or conversation then maybe start with "I acknowledge that what I did caused intense pain and that this pain will reappear again and again in some form. That’s OK and something we need to deal with and handle in a way that constructive to our healing. If you need it, then I can go back to the issue you are asking about, but I also want you to understand that I acknowledge the pain can come back for any reason at all."

IMHO the goal is that with time she feels less a need to revisit the pain, but at the same time YOU regularly experience the pain of regret for what you did. Sort of like she looks at you and thinks "Thank God I remained despite what he did" while you are looking at her and thinking "Thank God she remained despite what I did".

May I suggest that it takes years, decades even, for ‘everything’ to be said. I allowed my WS to rug sweep for 30 years, and eventually developed the courage to demand that we construct answers to the questions. That was 11 years ago.

It takes a while for both partners to get to a shared narrative. I would think about a detail that didn’t make sense, ask about it, and we would figure out an answer, or the best approximation of an answer. Those details can pop up when the BS’s brain detects some sort of connection with the affair, and tries to keep them safe. That will happen for the rest of their life.

My WS has not always been uniformly cooperative about unpacking questions and triggers, but he has gotten better at it. I would appreciate it if he brought up more discussions on his own. (One of my requirements for R is that he does a written reflection every month, and discuss it with me.)

I thought of a new question just last week.

Feelingverylow, if I remember correctly your BW is less than a year from your disclosure. I don’t think she has had enough time to process all the myriad ways that your choices have changed her life.

With best wishes

It has been ten years and I am still asking questions. I like to go over the same information I was already told. It gives me peace and I leave those conversations with some sense of relief. The only thing that is better after ten years is that I can go several days in between. Also, we don’t need to talk for as long. I agree with what others said above about the importance of specific apologies. We have endless conversations about the fact that him viewing it as one big f@#$ up is offensive to the victim. He needs to be sorry for all the little parts. His willingness to hear about it over and over again makes me feel he is committed to sharing in my pain. I would otherwise feel I need to walk this path alone and that is a devastating thought. At some point he switched over to saying we could talk about this forever if necessary. That actually helped a lot. I really try to lengthen the breaks in between talking. But sometimes that just makes things worse so we try to find the right balance. If I go too long without a "talk" I get pretty nasty. Perhaps this sounds like very bad news given it has been ten years. But actually he only came clean three years ago. So we have only been doing this for three years. "ONLY". I hope someday it gets better. My husband made many mistakes along the way and trickle truthed for ever, so hopefully you guys will heal more quickly. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say its really more about how quickly she heals. That will depend on prior traumas in her life, how hard she sees you trying. Special moments that for me really helped with healing were: him getting on his knees during these discussions (this only happened a few times but I remember it with appreciation), him crying at times when he heard my pain (this has happened even fewer times because he is not a man who cries, but he did and I appreciated it), him learning to bring it up first (doesn’t happen often but also appreciated), him learning to be very careful about whether he is talking about something he thought then versus still thinks now, making a written timeline (because without it i felt the facts were moving around and that was crazy making). All right enough, I’ll stop. I think you are doing a great job. She may always have a lot of pain. I respect what you are doing.