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If you're actually done, I can't think of a reason not to go ahead and send him that letter. It might feel like book-ending the relationship after you've had some time and some distance from it. He might interpret it as a bid for better efforts, but as long as you don't mean it that way and you're ready to move on, prepared to file for divorce, block him, etc., I think it's okay. Quite frankly, it doesn't matter whether he agrees with your assessment or not in terms of love. His actions spoke for themselves and they were NOT loving actions.

That said, if your resolve is in any way threatened, I'd keep to strict NC until it firmed up. The guy hasn't given you anything to work with, and dropping him hints could lead to more false promises.

((big hugs))

It's my birthday on Wednesday and WS' birthday, too. I'll be 36 and he'll be 40. I took myself for a massage today for a treat, but did NOT confirm it was a relaxation massage so I spent 75 minutes breathing through the pain.

While I was breathing through it, I had a thought and connected some dots that I wanted to share.

I know intellectually that me as a person and the state of our relationship had NOTHING to do with WS choosing to have an affair. Most of the time I'm good with that fact but as I'm sure others can relate, sometimes I can't help but beat myself up about it. Here's why:
1- I have never been afraid to lose a romantic partner before WS, I never loved anyone like I loved him.
2- Because of that, I was more vulnerable and honest than I'd ever been. I shed my past bad relationship behaviour to be a better partner.
3- I let him know me. I let him see me. I trusted him and I wrapped myself in the safety (I thought) our relationship provided.
4- He chose to leave. Long before the actual As, he checked out of our relationship, abandoned me, and allowed himself to chase his ego kibbles.

BUT for there to be any correlation between him knowing/seeing me and then choosing to leave, would mean that he was approaching the relationship as my equal: genuine, authentic and honest. Like Chamomile said, with a shared value set. Which is obviously not the case. He is and has always been selfish, entitled, and defensive. How can you know/see someone else when you're only focused on yourself?

For him to leave because I wasn't good enough or pretty enough or kind enough would mean that he actually knew/saw who I was. And even though I gave him that chance for the first time in my life, he never actually did.

Which is why, most often, the A is NEVER about the betrayed spouse.

It’s about the liar and cheater and their issues.

I was prettier and thinner and smarter than the OW. What I was not was new and 30 and a needy "woe is me" drama Queen. I was the 30 year solid reliable "I got your back" wife with a killer body and good career.

Just wasn’t what he wanted lol.

This is just a little bit of information about why you were so drawn to your husband. Because of his traumatized childhood he had to try to figure out how best to get his needs met. At some point he figured out how to be the lovable cuddly sweetheart of a person. That’s all on the surface. The damaged child is still there running his life. You fell in love with a facade. He can no more keep that up then you could hold up the empire state building. The weight of it is unbearable. All he wants is as much love from as many women as he can get but he’s an empty bucket and nothing is going to fill him up. He has too many places he leaks. That’s the hardest thing for people to understand. You do not get over that kind of childhood trauma unless you put yourself in the hands of an expert. Usually something like EMDR or these newer therapies can get to that child and help to a certain extent but it takes years to recover from childhood damage. At 36 you have decades ahead of you and you cannot babysit him till you are both old because the stress of it on you is going to make you old in a hurry. At this point the best thing you can do is steer him to someone who can start him on the path to trying to be healthy and then you get your own path and go on it and find a new life.

For him to leave because I wasn't good enough or pretty enough or kind enough would mean that he actually knew/saw who I was. And even though I gave him that chance for the first time in my life, he never actually did.

Exactly. The most paramount thing in the mind of a cheater is the story he's telling himself. My fWH had created a caricature of me which had nothing whatsoever to do with who I was. He had built this picture out of resentments, his own angst and disappointment in life, and he'd directed all of it at ME. I was "the bad guy" who had become undeserving of his honesty and fidelity. You see how that works, right? There's literally nothing you can do which causes the cheating. It's all inside the cheater.

((hugs))

I'm having a really rough night after a painful realization.
In the last month I saw WS once, which turned out poorly (he was confused about how he felt). We texted twice, once which turned out poorly (he was confused about how he felt) and the second time when I asked him to send along concert tickets he had bought for the night before our birthday, which he did. He did not reach out to wish me happy birthday and he has made no arrangements to move his things out.
I've been using this time to see friends, try and get back into a routine of better sleep and going to the gym, planning trips and activities so I have things to look forward to, and focusing on long walks with my pup.
When last we spoke, he was planning to use this time to gain "clarity" (his hot word), get medication, and a bunch of nonsensical jibberish but nothing since then. I'm in limbo.
I have realized that he is not going to come to his senses. He's going to convince himself that he's not in love with me, that we weren't happy, that our relationship is full of problems, that life is easier without "our" baggage, and he's going to do whatever he needs to justify NOT doing any work or taking any responsibility for what he did. An extension of that story, CT.
I have reached anger. How fucking dare he take the cowardly way out, rewrite/erase our past, and once again make a unilateral decision about our relationship (not that I am leaning towards R or D, but I resent not having the choice for myself).
My original plan was to stay no contact until he finally reached out and showed some initiative and (hopefully) remorse. But what do I do now? Do I reach out and tell him to come and get his shit? I'm sick of seeing it in my space every damn day. If so, do I wait another week? I'm angry now and likely to lose my cool. Another month? Continue with the original plan? My naïve side would like to think that because I haven't asked directly how he's feeling, I could be assuming the wrong scenario, but my gut has been pretty spot on this whole process and his track record is 0% certainty about anything.
I'm really lost. It feels like a new Dday - another realization that WS was never who I thought he was. Another kick in the stomach. Another round of convincing myself that I am the prize despite him rejecting me, again. Another round of fighting desperation. I'm so fucking sick of this.

My original plan was to stay no contact until he finally reached out and showed some initiative and (hopefully) remorse. But what do I do now? Do I reach out and tell him to come and get his shit? I'm sick of seeing it in my space every damn day. If so, do I wait another week? I'm angry now and likely to lose my cool. Another month? Continue with the original plan? My naïve side would like to think that because I haven't asked directly how he's feeling, I could be assuming the wrong scenario, but my gut has been pretty spot on this whole process and his track record is 0% certainty about anything.

I think if you lean into that what you might find is that you're looking for a way to have contact. You haven't accepted his non-involvement in the R process as an answer to your question, so the question remains. If you ask him how he's doing, you're inviting him to talk about his favorite subject again... himself. Where is his intellectual curiosity about how YOU are doing, whether you're going to divorce him or not, how he might save his marriage with you?

It seems like you've only got two meaningful choices in front of you.. a) wait and see if he ever decides to show up, or b) pull the plug and mean it. Everything else is spinning your wheels and keeping you in limbo. Yeah, you could call him and tell him to get his shit out of your house and he may or may not comply. What does that actually mean though? For one thing, it means he can't bring himself to any sort of proactive stance about your relationship. You're driving again. But for another, it means he's not really sorry. Think about it, if he was REALLY sorry and if he wanted to be in this marriage with you, he'd be there. He'd be begging you for another chance. He'd be doing whatever it took to change. There's literally nothing stopping him from doing that except that it means actually prioritizing your needs.

Yeah, self-involvement is typical. That's what cheaters do, and they really, really don't want to face the consequences of their selfishness or look at the guy behind the curtain. But what we're talking about here is an apathy so deep that he's willing to lose his relationship with you. What that means is that saving his relationship with you is not a priority. He's willing to stand by with his thumb up his ass and let you walk away because losing you is easier than doing the actual work involved in changing his defective character.

Anyway, it's possible that the immediacy of your need to contact could be an indicator that you're getting emotionally exhausted and maybe it will help to solidify your plan going forward. The ball has been in his court and he's just aimlessly toed it around without doing anything with it. That can also be an answer.

As always Chamomile, you're spot on. I needed to hear from someone else that I'm not out to lunch: WS is not a candidate for R.

You haven't accepted his non-involvement in the R process as an answer to your question, so the question remains.

Throughout our relationship I've come to realize that WS was having whole conversations and coming to conclusions about how I think and feel without ever talking to me. I didn't love him, didn't want him, so why not have As with ~*QuAlItY*~ women who do? I've directly asked him what he wants moving forward. He can't answer clearly. And so you're right, his non-answer is my answer, I'm just very bad at processing that and accepting the fucking cowardice rather than a direct answer. He's always been indecisive and I've always hated it about him.

Think about it, if he was REALLY sorry and if he wanted to be in this marriage with you, he'd be there. He'd be begging you for another chance. He'd be doing whatever it took to change.

I've also said this exact thing to him. He should be crawling over glass to keep me in his life and he is not.

But what we're talking about here is an apathy so deep that he's willing to lose his relationship with you. What that means is that saving his relationship with you is not a priority. He's willing to stand by with his thumb up his ass and let you walk away because losing you is easier than doing the actual work involved in changing his defective character.

Bingo. This is what I've just realized and I'm fucking angry about it. It feels like he's walking away from consequences yet again, abandoning me yet again, and I want karma to kick him in the ass, like, yesterday. The injustice is a tough pill to swallow.

Anyway, it's possible that the immediacy of your need to contact could be an indicator that you're getting emotionally exhausted and maybe it will help to solidify your plan going forward.

100%. I'm tired of this limbo. So, I acknowledge he's not willing to do whatever it takes. He's too much of a coward to ever say it outright, he's showing me through his actions and forcing me to once again make the decisions. I need closure to start properly healing and that means him getting his things so I can finally cut off all contact. Having this communication window open is not good for me. How do I go about this? Do I keep it short and sweet and say "Please have your things moved out by x date."? As much as I'd like to express my fucking rage and try and force him into taking responsibility for his apathy, I think that's likely just setting myself up for YET ANOTHER disappointment. Do you have any advice on navigating the logistics of the end in a way that best protects me?

How do I go about this? Do I keep it short and sweet and say "Please have your things moved out by x date."? As much as I'd like to express my fucking rage and try and force him into taking responsibility for his apathy, I think that's likely just setting myself up for YET ANOTHER disappointment. Do you have any advice on navigating the logistics of the end in a way that best protects me?

I don't think it's going to hurt you to say your peace as long as it's not a bargaining tool. It's one thing to say what's on your mind in a final sort of way, but it's something else if you're in a headspace where you can be manipulated one way or the other. If you say to him, "Look, I'm done. I waited for you to pull your head out of your ass and prove that I'm a priority, but it's obvious that I'm not, so get your shit and I'll send along the papers when I get around to it", what are you hoping his response will be? If your heart is on your sleeve and you're hoping he'll stop you, maybe it's better just to pull back and wait, so you can observe what he does next. If you're really at that point though where you've accepted that what he has to offer (if anything) is not enough for you, then yeah.. scream his ears off and hand him his walking papers. Why not? I think the key here is whether you're past any attempt to manipulate your decisions. Are you past that "bargaining stage" yet, or is the urge to contact him just another form of it?

The best advice I've seen from member in the Separation/Divorce section for when you're really done, is to treat it like a business transaction. Get in, get out and hopefully with as little drama as possible. That might not be emotionally satisfying right now, but you're not always going to be in this particular headspace. Believe it or not, if it's come to a split, there will be a time when you just can't be bothered to care about him at all. The opposite of love isn't hate. It's indifference.

((hugs))

Thanks for your thoughts, Chamomile.
I do think I want to have a conversation as part of the bargaining stage, not necessarily because I want him to beg me to stop/R, but because I feel like this entire time, the four long months since Dday, I have been in a place of vulnerability and without any control over my own life.
I'm an incredibly decisive person. WS has never been able to make a decision to save his life, he's too worried about people pleasing. I feel like my life has been on pause all summer waiting for the whole truth, waiting to see WS come out of the fog, waiting for him to make progress, waiting for him to decide what he's willing to offer me, and now waiting to hear from him at all.
I feel helpless right now and helpless over my own healing/moving out of infidelity, which is what I know I need to be focused on. But how can I heal with this unresolved living situation?
Fact: I can't control WS, but I CAN control my own actions. Other facts I know:
- The relationship that we had is dead (if it ever existed at all).
- Given that, these leftover reminders of our former life have no space in my home. It feels like I'm a storage facility until WS figures out what he wants.
- I know that reaching out will put me in another position of vulnerability with a very high chance of more pain for me.
- I know that seeing the remnants of our life packed in boxes next to my office is like taking a bullet every morning.
The times I've felt best this summer have been when I've been in charge, making plans with friends/family and scheduling trips, generally being independent. I don't feel like I can be independent with his stuff in my space and channels of communication open (though super unused). If he wants to be in my rearview, then so be it--I won't beg for what I know I deserve, but I want that to begin now. Belongings separated and communication blocked 100%.
Or I'm just deluding myself into creating random deadlines as an excuse to reach out.

Or I'm just deluding myself into creating random deadlines as an excuse to reach out.

What happens if you imagine putting his belongings in a storage facility instead, and without telling him you did it? IOW, the things are gone and safely tucked away, but you haven't broken contact. Do you still feel the need to do it? That will tell you if it's about the reminders or about a chance for bargaining.

I actually love that idea! I floated it to my mom on the weekend as a joke, but the more I thought about it the more I think it's the best of both worlds. Now I just have to decide if that peace of mind is worth the financial trade off. We don't have joint finances, we've always contributed to shared expenses independently. So the fees associated would be on me. Something I'm going to look into today.
Thank you for your consistent thoughts and feedback, Chamomile. I appreciate it more than I can say! <3

If you're loving the idea, I think you're safe to tell him to come get his crap out of your house. If he balks, tell him you're putting it in storage by such-n-such date and that he can pick it up there. Put it in writing. Consider telling him that you're only paying the first month and after that, you aren't responsible for what happens to it. Document everything. Take photos. Have witnesses. I wouldn't actually allow a storage fee to lapse, but he doesn't have to know that. If he refuses to take responsibility, at some point, you can sue him for your costs.

ETA: And I'd have it packed up and in an outside area like garage or porch. You don't want him to get inside the house and then declare he's moved back in, right? It's extra work to box it all up, but maybe worth it not to give him unfettered access to the house. Keep immaculate records.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 10:37 PM, Thursday, September 1st]

While I was noodling how I wanted to approach this, WS finally reached out of his own volition.
He is "choosing to move forward on his own" so that he can be selfish and focus on his issues, so I can be free to heal, blah blah blah. In reality, he is choosing to be a coward and avoid all responsibility for his actions because it's easier. The end.
I kept things oh so short on text and asked when he'll be getting his things. He's coming in a few weeks and I will have everything packed in the hallway for him to take, I will not be seeing or interacting with him. I told him to email me when the move is confirmed, said goodbye and blocked his number. He seemed honestly shocked I didn't tear into him or beg him to change his mind, which was great.
I plan on sending him a final email once he picks up his things, and then blocking him there too.
My question is whether or not I should inform his current and former employers that he likes to sleep with his colleagues and clients. Part of this is vindictive, yes. Part of it also feels right--these people are going to the gym for support and professional services and that's sure not what he offers. I wouldn't do this until after he picks up his things and I have him blocked everywhere.

As a gym Manager, I would 100% appreciate a heads up if one of my associates was behaving this way with clients. This is a huge liability in the industry and I would want to investigate before something happens.

How do I go about this? Do I keep it short and sweet and say "Please have your things moved out by x date."? As much as I'd like to express my fucking rage and try and force him into taking responsibility for his apathy, I think that's likely just setting myself up for YET ANOTHER disappointment. Do you have any advice on navigating the logistics of the end in a way that best protects me?

I'm late to the party here, but I was going to say that the packing up, tho hard, was SUCH a healing moment for me. My home is my sanctuary too, and all his shit being in here in my space was driving me crazy.

In my case, we decided on a separation of 30 days. The day he left I had another dday when I found out that he and his teenage twatap had a slumber party in MY fucking HOUSE while I had been out of town a few months before. I had a week of crying wtf before I found out he was heading back in to town. I called him and asked him about his slumber party, at which point he started screaming obscenties at me and then hung up. He followed that with a text that said (AND I quote) "Let's just get the divorce over with then". Yes, you heard that right - fucker ended 9 years together, 5 years married, with a fucking TEXT.

For months before that (seriously ask CT - she helped me SO much through my false R!) I had been spinning my wheels and trying to make it work in my head. I tell you, the s-e-c-o-n-d that divorce text came through, my sparkly badass bitch boots flew onto my feet and my rage went into the stratosphere. Less than 3 hours after that text, every item of his that was in my house was in the garage and all the locks were changed. It was a beautiful moment a few days later when he came to get his shit and called me to say that his key wasn't working and I calmly informed him that he was no longer welcome in MY home.

Here's hoping that you getting your stbxwh's shit out of your house is as therapeutic as it was for me. Reclaiming my space was a huge deal for me!

That was an issue in my situation too. WS would not do anything but listen and did not make any effort. Wanted to do nothing and behind the scenes was texting constantly with meetups sometimes. Nope that work would have been just too hard and anyway it makes life such so better to let me cry and talk on and on and then I'll get over it. Never read anything I suggested or listened to a podcast. After a week I should have known he didn't care enough to try.

You're seeing more clearly than I did so good for you. He will never be the person you need or try to understand you. Another woman will be along at the gym. Someone who doesn't expect more and will be charmed by the magic. When that blows up, another will be along.....

I know you cared deeply about him and were always supportive, showed the most private parts of your spirit. Sorry he's not emotionally well enough to meet you there. You would always be knocking at the door.....and he'd be far away, locked his self away so you couldn't see the hurt scared person, too afraid to open up and try. Mine hid too. Mine was a fantastic actor in the beginning. Truly incredible. I thought it was perfect. There is the disappointment and the frustration and the anger but you will pass through these and see with clarity. What you wanted with him could never be. The best was over and would never come again.

His indecision is a decision. You feel he wants to relieve himself of burdens. Children do that. They use up toys, or destroy them, or get tired of them. Assume his indecision is a discard. He never grew up. That is not on you.

Well it's done. On Friday, WS came and collected his things. I packed up every picture of us, every necklace and ring he gave me, every card and every photo book, every travel memento and I hauled them all into the hallway of my condo building and took my dog to a park. Then I sent him a goodbye email I've been working on for two weeks and blocked his email. It felt cathartic and devastating and like relief, all at once. So that's that!

"Of course, you've chosen to "move forward by yourself". Since that first weekend you couldn't find the courage to be truthful about needing to stay in the city and work, you have been a coward, WS.

You've had the opportunity since your double life was exposed to fight for us and our life, and you just couldn't do it (or you didn't want to). Instead, you threw five years' worth of promises, of "always and forever's", of assurances that you would never, ever leave me straight into the fucking trash. Not only are you a coward, you are without a shred of integrity.

There was no way you would ever be enough of a man to face the consequences of your actions, not when it's so much easier to tuck your tail and run. So, you've convinced yourself that we aren't worth fighting for, that what we had wasn't special or salvageable, that you're doing this so I can heal. It's total bullshit and I hope you know that I see right through you. You are choosing to be a coward. You are choosing to pretend I/we didn't matter, that you love me but you're not in love with me, that you need to be "selfish" to fix who you are. You are choosing to turn your back on all of the people you've disappointed with your shitty, evil behaviour. Because facing all of that sounds like hard work and we both know, WS doesn't like hard work. He likes immediate gratification and conflict avoidance and slithering through hardships. This was your first opportunity to change your behaviour, to do something hard and uncomfortable, to put someone else ahead of yourself and to start to become a better person, a person with integrity. And yet again you've failed.

I'm so disappointed in who you are, WS. Not only how easily you cheated and chased ego kibbles rather than be honest with me, but mostly how very fucking easily you gave up on me. I waited all summer for you to pull your head out of your ass, to realize how lucky you were to have me offering you a chance at reconciliation. But you chose apathy. You would rather let me walk away because losing me is easier than doing to actual work involved in changing who you are. You value your own comfort and safety more than you ever valued me; I have always been expendable to you.

The way that you've abandoned me hurts more than you being a lying, cheating stranger. You're trying to rewrite our history to make it easier for you to justifying giving up. But in your quiet moments alone, you have to live with the fact that you had someone and something exceptional, someone who changed your world, and that YOU are the singular reason it's irrevocably gone.

I never would have given up on us. Despite everything you did. I never would have given up on YOU, WS. I have been waiting, ready to fight for us because I thought we were worth it to try. But as was true our entire relationship, I was standing and waiting and trying alone while you were hiding and cowering, concerned only with yourself.

If you take one thing from this letter, I hope you go through every memento I've packed for you. Every gift and treasure, every single picture of us, every fucking word in every single card and I hope each one cuts you just a little bit deeper. Maybe then you can begin to realize the enormity of what you've chosen to throw away without a single fucking ounce of effort. I hope you go through every item and try to comprehend the complexities and the uniqueness and the beauty of the life that you've chosen to throw away.

But I know you'll do just that: along with all your things, you'll toss another partner, another puppy, another life into the trash. Of course you won't take this opportunity to reflect on what you've done; you'll sweep it under the rug, start your new single life with a clean slate (goodbye, baggage!) and continue to be the exact same hollow person that you are, always have been and always will be. You'll close your eyes and throw all our things and what we were in the trash and avoid all responsibility and chance for change.

So, you get what you wanted again. A fresh start and no consequences for what you've done to me or the ways you've shattered my heart into pieces. The depths of how you've lied to me for years. In fact, you don't have to deal with me at all or any other remnants of what you did, once you bin all of our shit. You get to erase it all, convince yourself and the next poor girl(s), that you're a good person, a safe partner, a man with integrity. But deep down, you'll always know what you did to us and how easily you gave up on me.

That pattern is what led you here, WS. Avoiding responsibility, avoiding difficult conversations, avoiding vulnerability. Your miserable childhood became a miserable adulthood and now you're 40 and facing a really miserable, lonely life because you're too scared to be honest. Too cowardly to face anything uncomfortable. Too selfish to be worthy of any genuine happiness. I feel sorry for you.

And yet, I hope that you know that I mean what I said: I forgive you, WS. You changed me and I wouldn't be who I am without you and us. I was vulnerable with you in a way I've never been. I loved you so immediately and so intensely and so deeply. You were my whole world, my safe space, my only one. You gave me the confidence to become who I am because I felt safe that you would love me no matter what, because you told me that. You said forever and I believed you. So, in the end, even though I believed in a lie, I will think of you and of us kindly.

I've gotten stronger every day without you and I'll continue on that path out of this hurt without you. I have amazing family and friends who love me and want the best for me, because I'm a good person and I deserve better than you. I am beyond what you could ever hope to deserve in a partner. But I will always remember the best of us, the magic of what I thought we were.

Even though you were never really real, We were real to me. I would have done anything to save us. And I hope that haunts you forever."

Great way to get out of infidelity. The pain is so debilitating. Cheers to your healing.