SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

We've had marital issues for a while. About 7 years ago, she had a physical affair after her friend's tragic death, during which she was comforted by someone else while grieving. We tried to rebuild our relationship which honestly was not all that successful as it ended with me just being more complaisant than anything. Additionally to complicate things during this time, she experienced significant memory gaps that recently she is remembering.

Around a year and a half ago, she expressed sadness about not satisfying me sexually while feeling emotionally unfulfilled herself. She suggested seeking other partners to address these needs. Initially, I was angry and refused. However, later, feeling frustrated with our stagnant relationship, I made a regrettable decision and had a physical affair over 3 months. This was a foolish mistake, but I felt our relationship was over. When my wife found out, everything changed for the better. We started communicating, discussing our love languages, and dating like we used to. However during this time, I discovered inappropriate Facebook messages on her phone, revealing hundreds of messages, some of a sexual nature, exchanged between her and someone else.

I believed we were working on fixing our marriage due to my own poor choice. However behind my back she was having an emotional affair that had been going on for the past 2 years. After I confronted her about this emotional affair (and yes I know it could have been physical which would have the same outcome for me) she initially tried to tell me it was just a flirting friendship and that there was nothing there. I told her that is literally not true as she had been sending inappropriate pictures as well as messages. I used me as an example explaining how she would be devastated if I were doing the same thing. Eventually she agreed and decided to remove this guy from Facebook and blocked his phone number after letting him know that she won’t talk to him anymore.

It seems that the relationship has been going through a rough patch but showing signs of improvement. However, about a week ago, I noticed that she is still friends with a guy on TikTok. I decided to read through her messages and found some messages between them from him, four days after she told him not to contact her. She ended up responding, apologizing for not being able to talk to him anymore. While it's tough to see, I understand the need for closure. Recently, while we were sitting in the car, she started acting strangely by hiding her phone. A few days later, I asked her to look at her phone, and the conversation with this guy was still there, but she had deleted the messages that she responded to him with closure. When I confronted her about it, she denied it, but I insisted that I remembered the messages. Eventually, she admitted to deleting them a long time ago so that I wouldn't get upset if I saw them. She then expressed frustration, saying she doesn't want to deal with my lack of trust for the next 10 years and can't believe I'm bringing this up because of a facial expression. She is really frustrated and says that she thought we were over this.

It is highly likely that your spouse has been engaging in PA's and just being effective at hiding it. Likely she suggested you get your needs fulfilled elsewhere because she was already doing so herself, or planning on doing so very soon.

Do I know this? No, but affairs are about secrecy, hiding, lying, and yes the occasional sex. However, there is usually way less sex than the rest of the behaviors.

You should probably get STD checks and investigate further.

Bobbobby

As a member of staff I’m moving this topic from JFO to the General forum.

When you enter this forum you have some text outlining the rules for who can post. In that text there is:

We ask that only the Betrayed Spouse post in this forum as a newly hurting BS may not be ready to hear from a former Wayward Spouse OR Former Other Person.

Additionally in the Forum Guidelines we have this:

Any members that are both a betrayed spouse and a wayward spouse in their current relationship are considered Madhatters on SurvivingInfidelity.com®. Madhatters, in addition to any former wayward spouses, are prohibited from posting in the Just Found Out forum. Madhatters are welcomed to post in the Wayward Side forum, but only from a wayward perspective.

Please don’t take this as dismissive to your case. We can offer guidance in the General forum and you will get a lot of good, constructive advice. Maybe even from posters that are in a better place to offer advice than those that frequent the JFO.

  Moving to General

IMHO people sometimes make the mistake of not defining or understanding what they want. My suggest would be for both of you to do the following assignment:

Sit down in a quiet place with no disturbances. No phone, kids, tv… Preferably at the same time, but separate.
Contemplate two things:
What do you want a future relationship to be?
Do you want Mrs.bobbobby/Mr.bobbobby in that relationship?

Once you have that vision you then talk together:
She might say: I want an open marriage with you as my husband.
You might say: I want a monogamous marriage with you as my wife.

You both clearly see that you aren’t aligned. The rational response to a situation where one needs to make what they see as a major compromise is to accept there is a difference and end the marriage.
That’s OK – that’s fine. Lots of marriages don’t work. No shame or blame in that.

If one of you gives ground then its done so from a position of acceptance and acknowledgement. Like if you were to agree to opening the marriage… you need to accept that and its consequences. You two need to set the ground-rules and be open about what is and isn’t allowed. You would be surprised at the number of infidelity cases we get here from open marriages…

She would need to accept there are rules and you two need to slowly merge into whatever decision you mutually reach. Instead of secrets and competition it becomes a

No matter the result: If you two willingly agree to a vision of what you want in a future relationship – you two then set up a course for how to get there. If that’s monogamy then you both need to freely be able to talk about your fears and what might be threatening that goal. If one is tempted, it’s discusses and the core of the reason found.
IMHO a key moment in a good marriage is when both partners realize there is only ONE reason you are together. That reason is because you have both – individually – decided to be married. The moment she or you start thinking "I’m not getting the sex I need here therefore I can go elsewhere" is the moment one or both can decide you don’t want to be together.

She's going to have to own her shit..but so do you.

This was a foolish mistake, but I felt our relationship was over

Cheating is a choice. A mistake is picking up white bread,when you meant to buy wheat. And the "but I felt our relationship was over," is a weak excuse every cheater uses.

Also..not every marriage can be..or should be..saved.

Cheating is a choice. A mistake is picking up white bread,when you meant to buy wheat. And the "but I felt our relationship was over," is a weak excuse every cheater uses.

100% agreed with you that cheating is a conscious and very active choice. The gray area to me in this particular scenario is that Mrs. bobbobby had come out suggesting that they open up their relationship. I say it is a gray area because while he says that he was angry and he refused it, it isn't clear if there was a final agreement on that point. My suspicion, based on experience in these situations, is that she had already opened up the relationship without him knowing and was trying to find a "loophole" in which she could shoehorn her cheating into an acceptable practice. Don't get me wrong, Mr. bobbobby here did admit that he pursued a physical relationship with another partner and whether that is cheating or not, I think it is pretty clear that a physical relationship with someone else is not going to solve the pain and trauma from being a BS.

Again, let me be clear, I'm not excusing or condoning his actions, as whether they rise to cheating or not, I'm more on the fence because his wife did tell him that she wanted to open up the marriage, so I am less sympathetic for her when her husband sleeps with another woman, since she was advocating for him to do it. Don't get me wrong, I think he still needs to address the wayward tendencies inside of him and deal with his shit, regardless of whether we label what he did as cheating, it does seem quite clear that he sought out another partner for external validation needs, which is not a healthy coping mechanism.

Bor..I would agree..except an open marriage is OPEN. Meaning, everything is out in the open. He said he had an affair. Affairs are a secret..kept hidden. Also..was this affair with a married woman? Does her husband know?

You can't have an affair(on your spouse), if your marriage is open. Unless you are lying about it.

Bigger
You are 100% correct here about setting ground rules.

Sit down in a quiet place with no disturbances. No phone, kids, tv… Preferably at the same time, but separate.
Contemplate two things:
What do you want a future relationship to be?
Do you want Mrs.bobbobby/Mr.bobbobby in that relationship?

Hellfire
Yeah I am fully aware of this. I made a a choice that I wish I hadn't. I felt as if things were progressively getting worse in my relationship and instead of being a grown adult and communicated better or ending things. It is a really stupid decision that I regret. But no means am I trying the minimize it.

She's going to have to own her shit..but so do you.

Bor9455
Thank you for your openness. We had different perspectives on what was acceptable. She may have initiated the conversation about fulfilling needs from others, having done so herself for 3 or 4 months without my knowledge. Our marriage has been essentially sexless for the past 2 to 3 years, as neither of us were addressing each other's physical and emotional needs. The turning point, not an excuse or justification, was when I was repeatedly told that if sex was that important, I should just get a girlfriend. I understand that she said this out of frustration, as neither of us were truly working on our relationship at the same time. The part that sucks about this entire situation is after my affair we really started heading the right direction working on things however, I feel as I was fully invested while she continued to sneak behind my back with her emotional affair.

My suspicion, based on experience in these situations, is that she had already opened up the relationship without him knowing and was trying to find a "loophole" in which she could shoehorn her cheating into an acceptable practice.

Hellfire
Thanks again for your reply. I have spent the last 8 months regretting a stupid choice of mine. I get the point that I have very little that I can say to take back this. My wife I actually saw this as a driving force to resolve underlying issues in our relationship. We spent months improving our communication, going back out on dates, and essentially starting over. However the reason I am upset/annoyed/etc with her having an affair is essentially I thought we were both fully invested in working to fix our marriage, however I don't believe she was fully invested as she had been having an emotional affair over the past 2 years (prior to my affair, during my affair, and after).

Bor..I would agree..except an open marriage is OPEN. Meaning, everything is out in the open. He said he had an affair. Affairs are a secret..kept hidden. Also..was this affair with a married woman? Does her husband know?

We spent months improving our communication, going back out on dates, and essentially starting over. However the reason I am upset/annoyed/etc with her having an affair is essentially I thought we were both fully invested in working to fix our marriage, however I don't believe she was fully invested....

Marriages don't cheat. People do.

We often see folks come here to SI, surprised by a new affair or a failed reconciliation attempt, who have worked REALLY hard at marital repair. The problem though, IMO, is that they haven't started with their own core values and personal damage.

Cheating is about the cheater. It's not about relationships and other people. It's about the relationship we have with our own belief system and our internal view of ourselves. It's also about maladaptive attempts to evade the discomfort of emotional damage and our own character flaws. When you think about it, if faithfulness is about what your partner does rather than what you do, your values are predicated upon her behavior rather than yours.

At the bottom line, we protect what we value. If you truly value Fidelity, if it's part of your own internal view of who you are, you don't cheat. It doesn't matter what your spouse does or what kind of unresolved marital issues might be in play because your fidelity is not about circumstances, it's about you.

You can click on the little person icon in the upper right of this post and read a little more why I believe that the "unmet needs" fallacy is a wrecking ball for R, but suffice to say, I've bought into the pop-psy on marital repair and found out up close and personal that it doesn't work. IMVHO, what works is starting with two emotionally healthy people who have remediated their character flaws, dealt with their damage, and who are firmly invested in their own values system. At that point, it's possible to figure out if each person's values are truly compatible with the other's.

You both should read How to Help Your Spouse Heal from your Affair and/or Not Just Friends. Because you both had affairs I think she may be thinking "we're even now, let's just move forward". That may be true to some degree but it's also rugsweeping the issues and that is going to lead to more pain and a false R.

Have you considered individual counseling or marriage counseling?

ChamomileTea,
Yeah I truly don't disagree and really I don't have a good justification for my actions. Not to justify anything but as I reflect back on how I personally impacted our relationship I am left with a lot of guilt. I somewhat feel this was the direction that I was being pushed as my wife had suggested it many times. That doesn't resolve the point though as I did it without her knowledge or input. Honestly it was a really stupid thing where I should of made a choice to deal with things or move on.

At the bottom line, we protect what we value. If you truly value Fidelity, if it's part of your own internal view of who you are, you don't cheat. It doesn't matter what your spouse does or what kind of unresolved marital issues might be in play because your fidelity is not about circumstances, it's about you.

Trdd,
Thanks for the reading suggestion I will have to check this out in the near future. As for counseling I started doing this about 6 weeks ago seeing an individual counselor. My wife has some reservations about therapy/counseling due to an experience when she was a kid, so at this time she isn't doing anything there.

You both should read How to Help Your Spouse Heal from your Affair and/or Not Just Friends. Because you both had affairs I think she may be thinking "we're even now, let's just move forward". That may be true to some degree but it's also rugsweeping the issues and that is going to lead to more pain and a false R.

Have you considered individual counseling or marriage counseling?

Thanks for the reading suggestion I will have to check this out in the near future. As for counseling I started doing this about 6 weeks ago seeing an individual counselor. My wife has some reservations about therapy/counseling due to an experience when she was a kid, so at this time she isn't doing anything there.

A couple of quick things (I'll try to be brief).

1. The sequence of events in my life was such that I was a WH well before I became a BH. My wife confronted me in Sep 2019 for my EA and between then and Feb 2020 when she confessed to her 13 month EA/PA, I had gone to work on myself. I started IC and we went to MC and along the way, even after she asked me for a divorce for "the final time" in Dec 2019, I stuck with it and kept pulling my head out of my ass. Along the way, I signed up here and received the same reading recommendations. When I read the How to Help Your Spouse Heal from your Affair" and "Not Just Friends" it was eye opening to me. It helped me to fully remove my head from my anal cavity!

2. When my wife confessed to her EA/PA, I was at that point a number of months into my recovery and understanding where I was as a WH and I was resolved that I was going to do anything in the world to fix my marriage. We tend to call that around here crawling across broken glass or moving heaven and earth. So, in the aftermath of her confession, I didn't waver in knowing that I wanted R, but my goodness, my wife waffled for some time (it felt like forever, but it was probably less than 2 weeks). Thanks to this group here, I knew how to lay out my requirements for R with my wife, but she was again kind of non-committal on things. I remember one of the conversations we had, she asked me how I knew that I wanted to R, and I told her that reading those two books opened my eyes as to the true nature of my behaviors and how I had lied to myself about the nature of things, including a past EA that neither of us considered an EA until years later. I read those two books and knew that I didn't want to be that person any longer and I didn't marry her to be that guy and I was done doing it, hence why I was pushing my chips in on going to IC, being transparent and open with her, even when she at one point kept telling me not to share my location or plans, because "we're getting divorced".

The end of that story is that she was sitting squarely on the fence. She had sent a NC message to the AP and ended things with him, but she wasn't committing to our marriage. Then, one day, I came home from work and she whisked me away to the bedroom to talk and she asked me if R was still a consideration, because she really wanted it. She later told me that she listened to both of those books on Audible while cleaning the house that day and it opened her eyes up as to what she had been doing to me. In those early days, the wounds were still quite raw and the emotional rollercoaster was very real, but those two books helped to save our relationship.

I don't know what it is about those books, but having a third party telling you things that your betrayed partner has probably said a hundred times, really helps the message to land.