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I’ve just had two really big moments with my wife in the last 24 hours and I wanted to share them here. First, MC session yesterday, my wife talked about her guardedness and lack of trust for me was largely rooted in her lack of valuing herself. That she needed to learn to trust herself to advocate for herself and keep herself safe before she could truly trust anyone else. That felt enormous to me, that it spoke to a feeling I’ve had that nothing I ever did was good enough to build lasting trust with her.
Even more significant though was just this morning she told me that she had had a memory triggered of the A when we drove past a park a couple days ago. She had been wrestling with how to disclose it, and she even lied in MC as I asked if there was any more info to disclose. But this morning she quickly corrected the record and told me about this meeting. As much as it was not fun to hear about new info, this just proved to me that she will in fact be honest with me as these memories come up. She was terrified, she thought I might end it over this. She told me anyway. It felt highly trust building, it feels like an enormous landmark to me in the R journey. Just wanted to share, feeling really encouraged this morning.

Inkhulk
It is a big moment, indeed. It’s moments like these that rebuild trust and a sense of closeness. I hope your wife continues to choose integrity and honesty. You are fighting a good fight. Best of luck to you both.

Welcome to the R forum.

You've heard it before, but I'll say it again, if she doesn't internally feel her confidence and worth from within, there is absolutely nothing you can do to make her feel whole. Sure, compliments and actions can make her bucket appear full her bucket in the short term, but that hole will always mean that it wont last, and whatever you (or anyone else) can give her, it will never be enough. She needs to figure out how to plug the hole, and fill her own bucket. That's not easy work for someone who has just acted in a manner that is (objectively) shameful.

The unforced disclosures/honesty about unprovable details are such strong trust building exercises. I wish more WS would understand this.

It sounds like you guys are making some progress. That's great. Happy for you.

She was terrified, she thought I might end it over this. She told me anyway. It felt highly trust building, it feels like an enormous landmark to me in the R journey.

This. This right here. This is what it's all about. She did good!

Your post reminded me that my H and I pledged to be each other's "soft place to fall." Sounds like she's beginning to trust you to be her soft place.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 8:48 PM, Tuesday, November 28th]

That's great IH, these turning points make it easier to continue traveling the R path. I remember the day my W thanked me for being patient with her while she pulled her head out, giving her the space to figure her mess out. It meant more to me than all the "I'm sorry's".

So wait...your WW is still lying in MC?

And I have to ask...didn't she trust OM?

That's good news Inkhulk.

Thanks for the positive update. That is good news and progress.

Welcome to the R forum.

Thanks. Long time listener, first time poster

You've heard it before, but I'll say it again, if she doesn't internally feel her confidence and worth from within, there is absolutely nothing you can do to make her feel whole.

Yeah, and her eyes are totally open to this now, it seems. Her IC has started talking about Internal Family Systems with her, or "parts work" as she calls it. It seems like a useful model for human psychology to me, as much as I understand anyway. She is owning that a broken part of her acted out so destructively, and she is able to still maintain the dignity of self worth by acknowledging that brokenness is not all encompassing.

The unforced disclosures/honesty about unprovable details are such strong trust building exercises. I wish more WS would understand this.

Couldn’t agree more. She keeps saying she is in disbelief about my reaction. She was worried about divorce papers and I’m closer to vow renewal. Not saying I’m all the way there, and I know not everyone loves that idea, but my point is this honesty she showed has been so incredibly helpful. It’s hard to overstate it.

So wait...your WW is still lying in MC?

Yup.

We have a new saying around our home: if something is worth doing, it’s worth doing half ass. It’s a nice variant of the other saying "don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good". Her honesty was imperfect, but it was good enough. Makes me think of the maid character in Knives Out who vomits anytime she lies. We can’t expect something like that out of anyone. She says she was processing how to tell me about this park encounter for a day. At MC she was surprised by my question of "is there anything else". I had been having a really good day that she didn’t want to wreck, and she has a habit of lying. And she lied in that moment, and that was wrong. But she said she felt immediately convicted and she couldn’t sleep that night. She quickly corrected the lie and told me something I could not have ever found out without willing disclosure. That, my friend, is good enough honesty. And I believe that this interaction will embolden her to be even better in the future. Stop and imagine what the consequences would be if I chided her for this, saying it was completely unacceptable. Should I expect future disclosures and honesty? No way, she’ll learn a lesson to keep her mouth shut. This was good and beautiful, I hope you can see that.

And I have to ask...didn't she trust OM?

I have no idea what you are asking here.

This. This right here. This is what it's all about. She did good!

Thanks, OG, I feel the same.

I remember the day my W thanked me for being patient with her while she pulled her head out, giving her the space to figure her mess out. It meant more to me than all the "I'm sorry's".

I can 100% relate to that, thanks for sharing.

And I have to ask...didn't she trust OM?

I think you are asking, why did she trust OM but distrust me? That’s a valid question. I think it probably comes down to the fantasy element of the A. She loved the mental image of him more than she loved him. Similarly, I think she trusted an avatar of her own making more than she trusted him. With her avoidance and stuffing, she hasn’t been good at resolving conflicts and clearing resentments. At the beginning of the "relationship" he enjoyed a blank slate, hadn’t built up any resentments with her. But they did begin to accumulate eventually. Her trust in OM was misplaced, I’m not threatened by it at this point.

That she needed to learn to trust herself to advocate for herself and keep herself safe before she could truly trust anyone else. That felt enormous to me, that it spoke to a feeling I’ve had that nothing I ever did was good enough to build lasting trust with her.

What does that mean, practically speaking?

She had been wrestling with how to disclose it, and she even lied in MC as I asked if there was any more info to disclose. But this morning she quickly corrected the record and told me about this meeting.

Do you still have a rule that you can't talk about the affair or can't have disclosure (can't remember what the exact "rule" was) outside of MC? How does the fact that she is still lying while in MC impact that?

I'm not asking this to be dismissive of the fact that she did tell you the truth afterward; rather, I'm highlighting the fact that she put certain boundaries in place that, in the opinion of many of us here, seemed pretty unreasonable... and then went back on her end of the deal by lying to you anyway. Is she aware of her own double-standard? Is she going to admit that she was lying to the MC at your next session? Otherwise, what's the point?

She was terrified, she thought I might end it over this.

You've forgiven her for lying in the past, particularly over things that you swore were "dealbreakers," so I don't think she had any reasonable expectation that this disclosure would be the last straw.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 5:47 PM, Wednesday, November 29th]

That she needed to learn to trust herself to advocate for herself and keep herself safe before she could truly trust anyone else. That felt enormous to me, that it spoke to a feeling I’ve had that nothing I ever did was good enough to build lasting trust with her.

What does that mean, practically speaking?

As I understand it, it means that she sees that she has abdicated her agency most of her life, the chameleon element of her that I have spoken of. She reads the room and adapts to it rather than fills the room with who she is. And in doing so she is expecting those around her to act in ways that keep her safe and happy, because she isn’t standing up for herself. And out of that she has gotten hurt. I have hurt her. She has been disappointed. She sees that she needs to be a fully present, brave woman with her own gravitas. No more chameleon. That is what I understand it to mean, and it sounds amazing to me.

Do you still have a rule that you can't talk about the affair or can't have disclosure (can't remember what the exact "rule" was) outside of MC? How does the fact that she is still lying while in MC impact that?

This has recently opened up, and very recently things have really sped up. We’re close to being caught up with my backlog. I have maintained the right to ask if and when new things come up, but they haven’t for a while. She wants to be done with them too.

You've forgiven her for lying in the past, particularly over things that you swore were "dealbreakers," so I don't think she had any reasonable expectation that this disclosure would be the last straw.

You seem upset, BTB. As always, please feel free to speak your mind.
Actually, the last time significant new information came out was when I separated from her for two months. And we both have agreed that we will not trial separate again because of the effect on the kids, so if we separate again, we’ll be heading to D. Yes I’ve forgiven her, and yes the stakes are high. I make no apologies for how I’ve approached this. It feels today like my patience is finally being rewarded.

InkHulk, you're misreading me. I wasn't upset, just pointing that her fear of you leaving her is irrational. Also, I believe the last incident of lying was in reference to music (just a week or so ago) unless you don't consider that omission to be lying.

I think that for some WS who lack an empathy chip, the road to reconciliation often begins when they realize that they can get emotional validation from their BS by being honest, particularly in circumstances where the BS was unlikely to catch the lie otherwise.

It seems that your wife is starting to learn that it's in her best interest to be proactively forthcoming, which hopefully will lead to her taking full accountability for her own behavior. As long as you're happy with her progress, that's what matters!

I am sorry not sorry @InkHulk but I stand by what I wrote.

Your WW had no problem advocating for herself and getting her needs met already--even if it meant stepping out on you for 3 years! Didn't she also expect you to cave pre-affair too.

So yeah...I think this needs to be explored further.

I am glad she corrected her last lie within 12 hours though.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 9:58 PM, Wednesday, November 29th]

InkHulk, you're misreading me. I wasn't upset, just pointing that her fear of you leaving her is irrational. Also, I believe the last incident of lying was in reference to music (just a week or so ago) unless you don't consider that omission to be lying.

Thanks for letting me know I was misreading you. She had reason to be afraid, she had just lied to me. Even if she hadn’t, she could have been afraid to let out new info with it appearing like a lie. If WS’s weren’t afraid of this stuff, we’d all be in a much better spot. And I do not regard what happened with the music to be lying.

It seems that your wife is starting to learn that it's in her best interest to be proactively forthcoming, which hopefully will lead to her taking full accountability for her own behavior. As long as you're happy with her progress, that's what matters!

I’m really happy. I feel a weight dropping of not needing to feel as vigilant all the time. I had a moment where a creative work idea came to me in the shower this morning. That used to happen somewhat regularly before, but my mind has been to mucked up by trauma since D-Day. I know it’s not over, but this was a really big deal to me.

Your WW had no problem advocating for herself and getting her needs met already--even if it meant stepping out on you for 3 years!

Sure, she eventually hit the fuck-it button, but in doing so could only get her needs met by violating every moral tenet of her life. Not a sustainable and worthwhile life. She is stepping into the light, where real and solid joy exists but you have to be brave and honest to claim it.

her fear of you leaving her is irrational.

Hmm. I don't know about that. I imagine that being guarded feels safe, albeit yucky. Learning to front oneself out and be authentic is freeing, but scary af for someone who's been living in lies and half-truths for as long as she has.