SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

If/when OP's marriage ends, there are going to be questions and confusion on the part of the people who are affected the most by this (besides OP himself). What did WW mean by she and OP "are having issues", they will be wondering? The daughters who surely love OP as their Dad--and from what it s seems OP loves as his daughters, are going to be desperately wondering why he and their Mom have suddenly decided to split and why they (OP and their Mom) could not work it out, and why THEIR OWN lives have changed so much. They (OP and WW that is) seemed so happy even just a few weeks ago! 'Was it Dad who had the affair?' they will wonder.

Letting the family know of WHY OP and his WW are having issues is the safe choice. It IS the choice that is "erroring on the side of caution".

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 12:20 AM, Wednesday, March 6th]

If OP decides to allow WW's affair to not be disclosed, then how is it going to look to everyone when OP tells WW that he needs her to leave the home--and maybe go live with her parents for the time being? Oh wait, they are not going to change living arrangements for the foreseeable future after all, and OP is just going to have to keep waking up every morning and find his WW at the breakfast table? Sakes Alive! This is how all too many BHs on here end up in a sort of R that does not serve them.

See where I am going with this? The decision whether or not to disclose to family is also very much connected to all the other decisions.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 12:07 AM, Wednesday, March 6th]

Once again, I am so sorry you are having to go through this typhoon of her making. All while having to function at work and just do your daily tasks. Its utterly exhausting, but you are doing it. Solidarity sir.

I affirm this decision:

Finally, for those who’ve encouraged me to separate myself from my WW, I’m going to. I have a work project wrapping up this week. So, I booked an Airbnb for a week in our local mountains. WW is a walking trigger and I just can’t get any clarity when I’m seeing her all the time.

You need time and space. To breath and think. As you said, shes a walking trigger for you and everything is as raw as can be. That said, I think you are doing very well.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 12:13 AM, Wednesday, March 6th]

If you are leaning towards divorce, exposure as a threat is a good leverage.

You are getting out of Infidelity in the way/actions that you have taken so far. Space is now a needed factor to help you make any needed decision's.

Things to do to help in your decision making.

1. Write out the pro's and con's of either divorce against reconciliation.

2. What is her actions telling you about how sincere she is to make amends.i.e. what actions is she is DOING either prompted or unprompted to show she is all in.

3. Is it a deal stopper for you.

If it is a deal stopper, then R will probably be a waste of time.

God bless

Hey JC,i just wanted to chime in again. Apologies for the rant. This got me thinking:

As far as me being the supplicant or passive one in the relationship, I don’t think that’s the case. I’ve really tried to look at this. As far as WW and especially the girls are concerned, I’ve always wanted to give them a life that I couldn’t have even dreamed of. Yes, I’ve always put them first, but overall, I’ve gotten great joy from this.

When I read this, all I could do was see myself in your comment. Like you, I had a less than ideal childhood. I think my mother may have broken my nose when I was a toddler. She liked to backhand us in the face. She would tell me that she regretted not aborting me, and even tried to stab me with a chef's knife when I was 14. So, to say I am screwed up would be an understatement.

I'm not telling you this to do a rock, paper, scissors on our trauma, only to let you know that I resonate with you on some level. I worked hard on trying to be a normal person, to not be defined by my childhood. And I did a pretty damn good job. I have degrees, am respected in the community, and function as a role model for others. People are often surprised at how normal I am given my childhood.

But you see, I didn't dodge a bullet. I have been profoundly affected by my childhood, and it quietly, even insidiously informs my behaviour. I spent my life trying to be a good man to my wife, thinking that if I could only be good enough,then I could redeem myself, that the shit I had been through would have been worth it. If I tried hard, I mean really hard, then I could create the family I never had.

Well, it didn't work. I emptied myself until there was nothing left, but a man who was pouring over a topographical map, looking for a suitable place to kill himself so it would look like an accident. That is when I broke.

That marked the lowest point of my life and the beginning of my recovery. I'm better now,but only because I did the work. You see, I was under the impression that if I was good enough, giving enough, sacrificed enough, then I could earn love. Yeah, not so much it turns out. Many people are happy to take everything you give, and then move on.

You seem like a good man, a really, really good man, and I am sorry that you live in a world that often fails to appreciate good people. There are two books that really helped me: No More Mr. Nice Guy and another Codependent No More. These helped me identify areas in my thinking that were harming me. After reading these, I felt like I saw the matrix, like the scales fell from my eyes.

I think it's important to look at your thinking and peel back the layers of assumptions in your world view, to see which are healthy and which are not. A good IC can help, so I recommend going tgatvroute. If not, then reading, Journaling, and a good friend can be beneficial.

Anyway, I've gone on too long. Good luck.

@Justcrushed

As far as me being the supplicant or passive one in the relationship, I don’t think that’s the case. I’ve really tried to look at this. As far as WW and especially the girls are concerned, I’ve always wanted to give them a life that I couldn’t have even dreamed of. Yes, I’ve always put them first, but overall, I’ve gotten great joy from this. The other thing I’ve had to look at is love. I know this stems from childhood, but at a deep level I always thought love had to be earned. I’ve been working on this for a couple of years now, but it’s pretty well ingrained in ne. The thought that someone could actually love me for no reason is still foreign to me. This whole dynamic may be what looks like me being passive.

When I mentioned "supplicant" I meant it more in the manner how you were the one giving or sacrificing more in the hope that your wife and her family would "allow" you (in your mind) to be part of the family. You giving up your own children for example for the role of caretaker/stepfather/? of her daughters. I say "her daughters" because at the end of the day they are family (as you have mentioned with regard to your inlaws), but where do you stand in the hierarchy? What has your wife sacrificed for you over the years? Who will walk these daughters of her down the aisle in the future?

Finally, for those who’ve encouraged me to separate myself from my WW, I’m going to. I have a work project wrapping up this week. So, I booked an Airbnb for a week in our local mountains. WW is a walking trigger and I just can’t get any clarity when I’m seeing her all the time.

You've mentioned an investigator in your employ, I could think of no better litmus test as to your WW's mindset, character and or intentions than having eyes and ears upon her during your week away. Money invested in truth and due diligence is never wasted. Have your home "bugged", it is your home thus you have the right, have her followed, see who she meets with, where she goes, if possible look at all forms of communication.

@Butforthegrace's gut instincts and thought process on her motivations should be deeply considered. His points are difficult to refute and disgustingly logical. Remember she has taken pleasure in denigrating you, I cannot even wrap my mind around those actions.

OP, I hope you are able to take a step back and just breathe. Yes, what your wife did was terrible. It was devastating. But (depending on you) it may not be unforgivable. I believe that if you want to, and if your wife does the work, your relationship can be a good candidate for reconciliation. I believe the love is still there on both sides.

Reconciliation is difficult, and not for everyone. But if it's something you think you may want, just take a step back and watch your wife's actions to see if they align with your needs.

@molly65, at least a handful of people saw who my wife was hooking up with. Everyone refuses to tell me who it was, even my wife.

The fury I feel over this fact.

If you didn't want to share that information with OBS, that's fine. But most of us completely disagree with it.

In my comment above, I discussed the possible motivation for this affair given its timing (on the heels of the daughters leaving for college). Based on what you've told us so far, this feels like it was deliberate from the outset. That your WW decided in advance to view her half of the marriage as a secret one-sided open marriage. That she then took steps to implement this structure, finding a guy in a bar, fucking him right away to keep his attention (a woman who wants a man's attention knows that throwing pussy at him will accomplish that), and then arranging her family life with you to create the structure that allowed for regular sex thereafter. As I ponder it, I really do think it was that intentional. Pure speculation here, but in my gut I feel that the besties had a role in this decision algorithm. "Girl, you've earned this. You've done all the right things, and now your beautiful daughters are in college. You get yours before you're too old to enjoy this. Have a little fun."

Of course, when she realized she wanted the life of a single woman, the honorable thing would have been to talk to you about it in advance. Instead, one of the first choices she made was to lie to you about it, repeatedly and systematically. I reckon she wanted to have her cake and eat it too: maintain the stable home relationship with Mr. Reliable, while enjoying secret freaknick on the side with Mr. Goodbar. In other words, this affair feels like a classic example of what people call a "cake eater" affair.

I want to remind you that if you had not caught it as you did, the affair would still be going on today. If Wednesday was their weekly tryst date, today she would be buzzing with anticipation for the antics planned for the evening. In fact, for all you know, it could still be going on. I doubt they have physical contact any more, but as you said, your WW is smart and she's a planner. It would be easy for them to be in communication. You haven't confirmed that she has 100% cut him off and given you a blanket open device access to prove that this is so.

As I note above, I'd bet a lot of money that the Besties were at least part of the thinking process leading up to this. Regardless of the genesis of the concept, it appears fairly clear that she did feel: (a) this was a treat, something she could do for herself to add pleasure and enjoyment into her life, and (b) it was in some way related to the fact that you are now semi-empty nesters, with the daughters off to college and just the two of you at home. I want that to sink in. In your mind, the treat that the two of you earned was more time together. In her mind, the treat was extra room in her life that she could fill with some new dick. A stark asymmetry in terms of value placed on the companionship provided by the marriage.

Which brings me back to my fundamental premise: now that you have seen this true side of her character, is she really the kind of person you want to remain married to? There is a saying that goes something like: "When a person shows you who they really are, believe them." One of the biggest hurdles every newly minted BH must overcome is letting go of the fantasy of the woman he imagines he is married to, and opening his eyes to the reality of the flesh-and-blood human woman he is actually married to. Who your WW really is: a person who feels that her path to joy is to secretly engage in unprotected sex with another man outside of the envelope of her marriage. The fact that she chose path yields the truth as to where her cravings actually lie. Keep in mind this credo: actions speak; words are bullshit. When somebody really desires something, they generally find a way to do it. Your WW's actions tell you pretty much everything you need to know about what her heart truly desires.

My strongest possible advice is that, if you love her (which I think you do), then you give her free rein to get after what she desires. "Wife, after thinking this over, the one thing that becomes clear to me is that you desire the freedom to have sex with other men. The degree of energy and planning you invested in that pursuit, including lying to me and outright disrespecting me in order to please another man, tells me that this desire in you is strong. I want you to know that, for my part, I love you and I want you to be free to pursue the things that bring you happiness. I am giving you my unconditional permission to have sex with other men whenever and wherever you wish. But not as my wife. I won't share you with other men. Therefore, I'm taking steps to end our marriage. I'm doing this because in my heart I know it will make you happy by giving you the freedom to pursue what you have demonstrated to me you desire to pursue. I truly hope you find the happiness you seek."

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 12:46 PM, Wednesday, March 6th]

Butforthegrace... Another excellent post above.

JustCrushed... If I were you I would take the italicized last portion of Butforthegrace's most recent post and print it out and make it the body of a letter... add what you need to in the way of headings, salutations, etc. Then give that letter to her. Wish her well in the future by telling her that you want her to have happiness for the rest of her life wherever she can find it.

We are all wishing the very best for you as you go on this terrible journey, which is not of your choosing.

[This message edited by lrpprl at 4:26 PM, Wednesday, March 6th]

AP - I hope you didn’t fuck him tonight

WW – Sorry, I had to. If I didn’t, he might have figured something was up

AP - I know, but I still don’t like it

WW – If it makes you feel any better, I pretended he was you the whole time.

AP – That’s my girl

To read this is just devastating. I too came across texts between WW and AP, but nothing to this level of callousness and cruelty. I can only speak for myself, but I would find this impossible to recover from in terms of salvaging my marriage or maintaining any affection for my WW. As it was put my others before, if she was lying to the AP in her text to keep him on the hook, she will lie to you about it to keep you as well. You’ll never really know and that seed o doubt will only fester over time.

Having been in a similar situation, the only advice I can offer is to "breathe" and look after yourself first. Your WW should not be of any concern, especially since she built a whole separate life for herself without any concern for you. She can take care of herself and the repercussions of er affair. And yes, talk to a lawyer. The best advice I can offer, however, is to take your time. There is no "infidelity clock" you are required to adhere to in order to get out of this situation. Talk to a lawyer, separate your finances, remove yourself from the toxic environment your in, talk with family/friends when your ready, and try to find something that can give you a break (I went to a lot of movies….alone…and trips to the gym).

You’ve handled this situation as best anyone could with the hand you’ve been dealt. Good luck.

JC,

It is great that you are getting some space for yourself. I am sure an escape from the pressure will be good for you, and your health is important.

Finally, for those who’ve encouraged me to separate myself from my WW, I’m going to. I have a work project wrapping up this week. So, I booked an Airbnb for a week in our local mountains. WW is a walking trigger and I just can’t get any clarity when I’m seeing her all the time.

One thought: given that you have already engaged a PI, who is familiar with the case, might it be worth getting them to keep tabs on your WW while you are away? I'm sorry if that seems paranoid, but it could be enlightening to see if she attempts to meet with the AP after everything she has said about dropping him and going no contact.

I stand by this:

Err on the side of caution.

Not for your WS - for you. I said and did things in the spur of the moment in the very beginning that I now regret. OP can and will get out of infidelity when they are ready - making rash decisions are usually not in your own best interest and especially as he is physically separated right now really thinking about things and making a decision you are comfortable with (or as comfortable as you feel you can be in situations like this) - yes, is my personal feeling - separation and a little time often brings a bit of clarity.

EDIT to clarify: I didn't say NEVER tell them. I said waiting is fine and thinking about where you want things to go IMO is a good thing. In my situation WH is not very close to his parents - telling them more than that we were getting divorced would have been weird at best and as far as I know they were not told more (nor did they ask). His daughter does know now - WH told her. At the time of his A she was a mid-teen who did not lives with her mom a large majority of the time. Again, there was little need to tell her in the beginning especially.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 2:50 PM, Wednesday, March 6th]

WBF:

If OP decides to allow WW's affair to not be disclosed, then how is it going to look to everyone when OP tells WW that he needs her to leave the home--and maybe go live with her parents for the time being?

I didn't say never disclose - I said take some time AND be careful about WHAT you disclose. My understanding in OPs situation is that the kids are older (19+ I think). Saying you are staying elsewhere for a week (which the OP is doing) doesn't need much explanation in my world. You can say you are having marital problems w/out going into any detail (or little) about why. The fact is for me in the beginning when I disclosed to a friend of ours (one of WHs oldest friends), too much - I said a lot of nasty things, lost my temper, and stated things as fact which were supposition - I was a mess. It is one of my regrets as it was simply TMI, and unfiltered, and filled with venom. I wish I hadn't done that his friend's reaction was waaaaaaay over the top of anything I could have expected - it was UGLY and a lot of it was simply not germane to MY situation - it caused a LOT of additional drama for ME at that time for months - the better part of a year actually. I regretted it almost immediately.

My comment also was due to OP's earlier post about burning all the cards from his WS. Something he did after drinking a bit of wine and maybe something he will wish he didn't do later (I flushed some letters down the toilet from WH and trashed some photos - now, I sincerely wish I did not do that). Either way, that was a BIG thing for him and I would advocate taking a pause before doing the big stuff. That's all I am saying. Time is a good thing - clarity is a good thing - especially when addressing the big stuff. Be sure you are doing what you feel is right for you not just today but for the future too. I wish I had been better at that.

Oh wait, they are not going to change living arrangements for the foreseeable future after all, and OP is just going to have to keep waking up every morning and find his WW at the breakfast table? Sakes Alive! This is how all too many BHs on here end up in a sort of R that does not serve them.

My understanding is OP is taking a short break and staying at an airbnb for a week or so. This is a good idea to me. IDK why there is the need to expose today as opposed to next week or next month or whatever works for you. That information isn't going anywhere.

Hi JC. Hopefully you are finding some ways to distract yourself from the pain Your WW inflicted.

I don’t want to reiterate what others have said and so I hope this is something a little new to focus on, although I do believe others have alluded to it in Their comments.

One of those posters is M1965. He wrote a post on page 7 of your thread that merits re-reading if you have the time. It was about your wife people-pleasing.

It is a subtle point, but I want to highlight it to you.

Often BS’s want to make sure their exposed WS’s are doing everything they can to rebuild what they destroyed. And like others, I believe you have rocked it when it comes to doing everything right after DDay. And you rightfully told your wife what she needs to be doing, focusing on and what actions to take both right now and possible after D if that comes to pass.

But there is a fine line to be walked here. You cannot lead this process. You can for yourself, but you cannot and should not for her.

If she is going to be able to rebuild any of this, whether it’s D or R, she needs to be the proactive one. And by that I dont mean just proactively doing what you asked her to do, but by coming up with the full plan of actions herself. And As M1965 said it can’t just be because she is doing these things just to "please" you, but that she truly wants to do them because she has it in her heart to make them happen. That she truly wants to do them.

I know it’s a big uphill, cliff climbing, battle to even see a chance that you two could reconcile. But from her perspective, if she wants even a chance to have you in her life, she needs to be researching what it means to recover after infidelity and more importantly how to help a hurt spouse heal.

And you can’t spoon feed those things to her. You told her what you need honestly, but the one thing I’d add to that list is that she should be creating the list and maintaining it and adding to it as she learns what she needs to do. So I recommend making that clear to her.

I’ve often said here, if the BS leads the recovery, and micromanages what their WS needs to do to rebuild, then the BS runs the risk of not reconciling with their WS, but instead, reconciling with themselves. That’s a place you don’t want to end up. She needs to do the work. Whether the end result is D or R, she needs to lead so success or failure is on her, not you.

And with that in mind, First and foremost she should be putting your pain above her own. Do you hear or feel anything from her that she recognizes how she has devastated you and the pain this has inflicted? That fact should be more mortifying to her than the pain she feels for herself and what she is losing. Again, that’s very subtle. But when it comes down to the nuts and bolts of whether R will ever be possible and real, even if unlikely, it’s important for her to find this true empathy for what she has done to the man she vowed to Love Honor Cherish and Protect (something she failed on all counts).

And finally, even more difficult to comprehend and of course monitor and prove, I would communicate to her that there will be no chance of even a possible friendship if she holds the AP in her heart in any way shape or form. Unless she views him as a true piece of shit who helped her destroy the man she vowed to be her partner for life and the family you and she had worked hard to create, she will not have any chance of being in your life going forward.

Of course it’s very difficult for her to prove that she sees him in nothing but a hellish light, but I’d let her Know that is on her to figure out and prove.

No WS ever thinks they will end up having to know how to rebuild after they cheated. They never thought they would do what they did, and it’s typical for them to be lost in what to do after discovery day. But it’s what they do once they find themselves having destroyed all around them that shows if they are a candidate to at the very least fix what is wrong inside of them to make the choices they did. Your wife from what you told us hasn’t shown yet if she has that capability. We will see as time goes forward if she exhibits a true willingness to learn and execute what a WS must do to successfully rebuild in some way shape or form.

I feel for you JC. As we all here do. Whatever path you take it’s a long road back to happiness. I am confident you will find your way there as you seem to be strong and determined even in the midst of a truly painful time. I wish you well

[This message edited by Stevesn at 3:17 PM, Wednesday, March 6th]

They’re family, will circle the wagons and I’ll be on the outside looking in. That won’t be the driver, but it’s something I need think about.

...As I said earlier, I plan to pay my share of the girls college expenses, but will not let that be written into the final settlement.

JustCrushed,

It may not feel like this to you now but the bolded parts tell me that you are dealing with this hairball your WW coughed up like a champ! You also appear to have a realistic understanding of relationships.

As far as WW and especially the girls are concerned, I’ve always wanted to give them a life that I couldn’t have even dreamed of. Yes, I’ve always put them first, but overall, I’ve gotten great joy from this. The other thing I’ve had to look at is love. I know this stems from childhood, but at a deep level I always thought love had to be earned. I’ve been working on this for a couple of years now, but it’s pretty well ingrained in ne. The thought that someone could actually love me for no reason is still foreign to me.

This really moved me my friend. You are a kind and moral man but you will not let people mistake your kindness for weakness. It's such a damn shame that your WW chose to throw a lifelong love and partnership with a prince like you in favor of an "exciting" roll in the hay with that POS.

So, I booked an Airbnb for a week in our local mountains. WW is a walking trigger and I just can’t get any clarity when I’m seeing her all the time.

This is another thing I have in common with you. Renting a cabin in the mountains is how I like to unplug as well. You deserve some peace and quiet!

I should have been much clearer. OP's *WW herself* should be the one to tell her family what she has done.

Enjoy your time away, JC, after all you've been through you deserve it...

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 4:22 PM, Wednesday, March 6th]

There isn't an OBS. So that aside, I feel personally and have observed here that most people know their family and in-laws. They know what to expect from them and how they want to interact in this situation to meet their needs. That seems true for this poster.

I did not, and would not in the future, tell my in-laws about an affair my WH had. I know their reaction when their siblings had affairs and left long-term marriages. We're not close. I don't care what my husband tells them. I wouldn't lie or excuse, but that's a personal value and choice. I can respect others. This poster says his in-laws will likely cut him out eventually. He's probably right then.

Everyone has a different relationship with adult children, and I also respect that. One of my best long-term friends had a serious cancer diagnosis while her children were in high school and a few years after her husband had an infidelity betrayal that was public enough that her children were aware. They told their children everything and even discussed new household responsibilities. Those children have grown up quickly. Another close friend just told me she had surgery for an aggressive, but non-invasive, cancer. She won't tell her adult children that are mid to late 20s until she feels it's necessary. I didn't have that relationship with my mother and don't with my adult children, but I can still respect it.

There have been two men BS here who had long-term marriage where their wives wished to reconcile, and they did not. Their relationships with their young adult female children were injured. Those children felt their father should reconcile. I don't have female children, but I wonder if the entitlement and expectation wasn't a product of their mother's inclinations. A woman whose best long-term friends are condoning or encouraging affairs like this poster is likely not a quality person. I wonder who that has affected those children's values or concept of responsibility and consequences.

Lastly, one of the saddest incidents I've witnessed here is when people encourage a reluctant BS with young children to tell their parent. In some cases, that parent has told them to go back to the WS and do whatever they need to do to take care of the marriage situation. Again, I think many BS know when it's best to reveal to family and friends.

Unless I missed something, it hasn't been 100% determined that there is no obs.

We have the word of a liar,and someone invested in protecting the OM, saying he's single.

And, yes, we know she's been to his apartment. Maybe his wife was out of town, or at work. It's not as if WW would have a problem if he was married,so being in her home wouldn't matter.

Good morning. I’ve unintentionally left out a couple of things, so I’ll briefly note them. MY WW sent a NC text minutes after I told her that was a requirement. I’ve read it, it was direct and to the point and he’s been blocked. She also sent me the names and bios on two IC’s that she thinks would fit my requirements. Oddly, I had no reaction to this. My heart is closing fast and I’m detaching. It’s almost like I’m watching a movie about someone else’s life.
Well, I got the report from the PI yesterday. AP is single as expected, but my God, what a fucking loser. Here’s the topline.

1.He has five kids in three states. There are outstanding judgements in all three states for his failure to pay child support
2.He has had many arrests for a variety of petty crimes over a number of years
3.He served five years in prison for extortion and witness tampering
4.He’s declared bankruptcy twice.

How could I possibly compete with that resume? There was one other interesting thing in the report. When I met with the PI, because of the text that I had, I was able to give him the AP’s address and where he had instructed my WW to park. Well, when the PI was at his place, guess what. A middle-aged women pulled into the same parking spot and went to his apartment. The PI ran her plates and said she does not live there. He asked me if I wanted him to check her out. It looks like the AP might be seeing someone else – what a shock - but I don’t think it’s worth the money to find out.

So last night, WW had gone to bed and I was just feeling really pissed about this new information. The juxtaposition is just mind boggling. I knocked on her door and the went in. I tossed a copy of the PI’s report on her bed and said this is who you blew up our marriage and traded me in for. A few minutes later, I heard some pretty intense sobbing. Not my finest moment.

God, I can’t wait for the weekend and getting some time alone. I’m reading all the advice and spending time to really see how it fits. Thank you all for the time to help. I’m also continuing to read outcome after outcome here and mentally sort them into broad categories. I’m finding this helpful as well.