SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

All sensible thoughts.

While I don't think you can truly get it, you could imagine a lot of the hurt a BS would feel if you had an ounce of empathy. The lack of it from WS at the time is crushing (but then she might not have done what she did).

I think the argument was worrying but I told her I expected my feelings to be validated not argued against. I can see her guilt and shame is going to fight against what is needed to R. I have shared with her a list of non negotiables which includes not Minimising my feelings. She had accepted so the next time this happens I will remind her of her choice to acceptas being a condition of us continuing next time something similar happens.

A practice that sounds cheesy but was incredibly helpful to me was that my therapist had me write down my story and then change my name to my best buddy's name. The practice involved me "sending him emails" on what my recommendations were. The conditions were that I had to be truthful, I had to presume that my friend wouldn't be offended by anything that I said and that these messages were sent, in this scenario, via an encrypted channel that would guarantee we would be the only two to ever see the messages.

It was a rather empowering process.

A practice that sounds cheesy but was incredibly helpful to me was that my therapist had me write down my story and then change my name to my best buddy's name. The practice involved me "sending him emails" on what my recommendations were. The conditions were that I had to be truthful, I had to presume that my friend wouldn't be offended by anything that I said and that these messages were sent, in this scenario, via an encrypted channel that would guarantee we would be the only two to ever see the messages.

It was a rather empowering process

As in giving yourself advice? I'll try anything. Have been using got to "chat" to my wife and say nasty things I really shouldn't in real life.

I also did this to practice my 180 convo (she met all my demands so didn't have to 180)

WS is making efforts, I think she's grasping that the work is "a lot". She had a really good week of being supportive and then went a bit off the rails. She finds the yo-yoing really difficult.

I have no expectations of outcome at this point (I can't control it) and focus is on me and my process. I liked Bigger's earlier post around choice and will be bringing those ideas into future discussions. I might move over to the R forum because I'm moving more towards that than I am towards D, but I think keeping laser focused on healing is more productive than a soft commit on R.

For those wanting to highlight her behaviour was "poor" (or maybe use more colourful language / descriptions), please don't. I'm suffering enough and have can generate enough negative perspective on my own. It just makes me feel judged and that's not helpful for me rigt now.

I should qualify "going off the rails".

She told me that during the A she didn't think about the impact on me, how I would feel when I found out (in response to a question). I told her later (I became overwhelmed, she asked me what was wrong) that it was really hard to hear that.

Queue an argument from her about how I twisted her words, "of course I wasn't thinking about you, I pushed thoughts of you aside" and then quiet hostility the rest of the day. Honestly, I'm still confused what the fight was about. My feelings were hurt and she was upset I was upset?

We had a checkin last night and I shared that I felt my feelings were being invalidated. She listened, acknowledged her response wasn't great. We continued the check in.

I don't see this as a setback so much as the struggle on the ground. Neither she, nor I are going to have all the right words all the time.

Anyways, that was that detail if people were wondering.

You seem like a level headed guy. I know one of the problems I had that you mention here is the "yo yoing". To *her* it probably looks like you are having random outbursts. To *you* it feels like you are sad, angry, full of just stuff, and it bursts out at some point. I encourage you to not hold it in so long. It will provide your wife with a more consistent message that you are in anguish.

I know that doesn't really seem to make sense since you want a positive relationship, but that's sort of what she needs.

No stimulus, no action.

I think you have a good attitude towards R, and I basically always see it as a "soft commit". I'm almost 6 years in and have given myself permission to change my mind at any time. My wife broke the vows first, so in marriage 2.0 the only way I can operate from a place of fairness is if I inject uncertainty on my end. It doesn't have to be the same way she injected uncertainty, but I simply refuse to hold on to an assymetric level of commitment where I'm more committed than her. I'm sure others here will say you both need to be all in or whatever, but I'm just telling you where I'm at and how I'm doing R. Our marriage is basically one day at a time and if she wants out, I'm not gonna stop her and vice versa. Neither of us want out. At least not today.

I agree that cheaters don't think about their impact. It's this sort of necessary internal deceit for an otherwise not shitty person to do such a shitty thing. They need to make up a narrative about how their cheating is special, which is hilariously is part of the whole cliche showing just how run-of-the-mill their affair is. "I was unhappy" "We were divorced in my mind" "If you didn't never found out, it never would have hurt you." etc. All these lies are about them saying they are just doing this for themself and that other people aren't affected by their actions if the other people don't find out. Basically every WS has to spin up this internal deceit before they lie to you the first time. That's the thought process they should be working on to identify and interrupt.

Good luck with healing and good luck with your M and if you choose R good luck with that. You are allowed to stay in limbo as long as you want. I chose to not choose for some time myself.

Thanks This0is0Fine, sage advice! I have a checkin with her this evening and my level of anger is bubbling over (in a healthy way).

She is really stuck with what work she can do absent IC (MC asked us to hold off on that for now) but that isn't working for me. I don't want to have to give her homework but I feel that's what needs to happen. She is a smart lady so I don't see why this is so hard. I'm inching back to a 180 conversation. She needs to lift her game.

Listening and empathising isn't enough.

We all feel your frustration and I think that everyone here who echo that it is a valid feeling at this point.

Here’s the facts:
1. Your wife unilaterally ended the marriage
2. Your wife did so without letting you know
3. You are living with this person who had a previous version (or mask) which you identified as partner material
4. The above person also has legal ties to you, confusing the necessary emotional decisions.
5. You are unsure of if starting a new relationship with this person is the correct decision.
6. Her willingness to work for a new relationship is a factor in your decision.
7. Both of you have agency to walk at any time. There is no marriage to save. There is only a decision to get with this ‘new’ person to ‘date’ and maybe one day (re)marry.

You’re confused - that’s to be expected! You also made the decision to not expose (completely your decision) which makes this entire process extremely more confusing and risky. Chaos in the mind sucks huh? Makes you want to be one of those Buddhists who isolate themselves at the top of mountains.

I’m sorry your cheating spouse is not stepping up to the plate.

I have a differing opinion than many here at SI on the best way to proceed after DDAY. Now this is based on my experience but a number of other posters have provided the sane advice or suggestions.

First I did not know about SI until years after my H’s affair so I was operating on instinct. Just for context after his last mid life crisis affair he begged me to R and I did not want to. I planned to D him as soon as the holidays were over (3 weeks time).

To shut him up I told him if he wanted to R he was free to do that but I was not helping him. I made no demands or gave him guidance or support. He was in his own. He needed to prove to me that he changed and he would be someone I wanted to stay married to.

Honestly if they have enough brain cells to cheat, they have enough brain cells to figure out how to repair the damage the cheating created.

It’s NOT the job of the BS to tell the cheater to do X, Y and Z. Again it’s my opinion and honestly it doesn’t show that the cheater is COMMITTED to the marriage. It just is another way to avoid and deflect facing the issues.

Which I believe is why so many cheaters avoid counseling. Too painful or not really interested in facing issues or making changes or maybe not even invested in the marriage. Whatever the reason is, it doesn’t matter — what matters is that the cheater is willing to make changes and make amends for the affair.

Explaining your needs and expectations etc. is exhausting and sort of makes you the marriage police. Telling a grown adult things like "I need you to do this or that" is exhausting but often necessary. However if nothing changes and you are repeating yourself again and again, it may be time to take a step back and re-evaluate the situation.

Nothing will change unless you (the BS) change. And if things in your marriage or relationship don’t change and meet your expectations or needs, then you have to either accept the status quo OR end the marriage.

Hope this helps you.

I think 1stWife and I are rowing along the same river as far as what might work...
I talked about options...

I think you should explore that a bit more. No – not saying jump directly to divorce – but rather that you don’t assume reconciliation is what’s going to work.
I sometimes talk about getting out of infidelity as the destination, and that reconciliation and divorce are simply two paths that lead to the destination. Sometimes both paths are open, sometimes only one is. Sometimes... well... probably ALWAYS... there can be blockages and hinderances along one or both paths, and you might spend some time evaluating which path can clear and open up.

I suggested you make it clear to your wife that she has options. Basically – do the work or end the marriage.
I think YOU need to be clear that YOU have options, and that you are BOTH clear about your options – the options both have.

Your goal isn’t to reconcile. Not any more than it is to divorce. Your goal is that in some time – that can be 6 months, 12 months, 18 months – you get out of infidelity.

It’s not likely that you reach your goal – that is to be completely out of infidelity – for a very long time. I can share that I took about 15 years before I had the PTSD infidelity gifted me removed... some form of infidelity-sand-corns that I carried along all that time. But you can decide that 3, and then 6 months from now you are convinced that you are progressing at an acceptable pace along either path – R or D – towards Out Of Infidelity.

I think it can be powerful when you tell your wife something along the lines that YOU are getting out of infidelity. Your deepest desire is that she come along so that you can try reconciliation, but irrespective of her decision or progress YOU are getting out. As-is you are doing so while dealing with the obstructions on R-road, but D-avenue is running parallel for now, and that if you ever get the sense that the blockage ahead is too much to handle, you will be tempted to switch.
It’s her call if she is part of the blockage, part of creating the blockage or part of clearing the blockage. You don’t necessarily see it as your role to point out each stone or pothole because she can probably clear most of them on her own initiative.
It won’t hurt to have some list of what you need. Not necessarily direct detailed instructions. But I guess you would need:
Total accountability – basically anything and everything you ask be answered truthfully. Like if you ask if she met OM N times but it was N+2 you want the RIGHT answer. You need to make it clear that any truth shared now damages less than any secret or lie uncovered later on.
Conviction that she’s committed to the marriage – she can be accountable with the time, her social media, her emails, her phone, her finances... It’s not really yours to ask, but her to offer.
Her realization and acknowledgement that the ONLY reason you two are attempting to reconcile is HER wish to do so, as well as YOUR wish to do so. This is important because she can’t hide behind some "if only I could" or "if only I was free" fantasy. She can, and she can be free. It’s an open option for her, as it is for you.

I didn't reply at the time but I did find The1stWife and Bigger's posts helpful (all posts helpful really and all appreciated).

I am questioning MC, seems to think WS has no deep issues to work on. She was unhappy and feeling neglected and made a very poor choice. Better communication is the key apparently and being present with me in my pain. Pretty sure I need a different one.

Total BS.

I have said to WS very clearly that being present is necessary but not sufficient. I have said (along the lines of Bigger) that when I say what I need, it's her choice to do it or not do it, but it's what I feel I need. Her willingness is her choice. There has been some complaints of punishment which I have discounted (I'm asking she does things like "give me a list of articles you've read" or "watch these videos I send you").

Either way, my mindset is very much that it is her job to fix the marriage and mine to fix myself. I will tell her what I need to be good with WS but if she can't then that's her deal.

On my side, I continue to yoyo which is fine and normal. The panic attacks are mostly gone, but constant rumination and invasive thoughts. Am closing in on 120 days. Some days I'm a hot mess, some days am only a slightly droopy bar of chocolate.

Have been thinking a lot about moving into the guest bedroom. Have also started reading posts on the Divorce forum. Seems a happier place in some ways than the Reconciliation one.

We have good days but I worry that she'll gravitate to those (i.e. fake normal) and kind of ignore the bad. She still gets defensive but I expect that will continue for some time.

I feel like I mostly know *enough* about what went on... I'm not sure I need a full list of dates or anything. I almost think at this point that going back through the messages to find more questions would be pointless (i.e. I answered all my own questions anyways). I know how the story ends, who cares whether they smashed on a specific wednesday 3 years ago.

This sucks

I think it is frustrating when a WS does not figure out how to make progress because it implies a lack of commitment. However, if you are giving the idea of R a chance then I think you should consider a few things. Some people need direction, particularly on difficult challenges. Yes, the BS has more pain but the WS who has guilt and shame is also in pain and their path is also fraught with challenge. Ideally she should be able to figure out what to do but that is just too much for some WS. Particularly with the emotions involved and the fight flight response consistently activated. So if you are still open to potentially pursuing R in a committed fashion then I would ask you to consider:

Are you offering her enough feedback and guidance? She sounds like she needs it to be able to help you. Consider doing it via letters if one on one dialogue triggers her fight/flight response. Then follow up to answer questions and seek alignment after she absorbs the letter. Does that make sense?

Get her into IC with an infidelity specialist. Your MC sounds experienced and competent, what about him meeting her alone? Or referring you to a like minded colleague? I agree with all his cautions about IC with the wrong person but that doesn't mean you just avoid IC, does it? People with great shame and guilt will find it harder to process with their BS in the room. Your MC may be good but that dynamic may be limiting her growth, reflection and ownership.

You now know why I don't recommend MC right away. Many MCs doesn't have the qualifications to work with infidelity. They work on the relationship and communication. Your M didn't cheat - your WW did.

If you can, IC with a betrayal trauma specialist can be helpful. One saying is that the BS heals the BS the WS heals the WS. After that, then MC may be helpful.

Getting a good MC that will hold your WW's feet to the fire is a crap shoot, unfortunately. You should fire your MC. You can't drag an unwilling WS through R because you both need to be 100% all in.

Because I know others will come in hordes to bash your MC...
I think your MC is on to something... Just keep in mind it’s not the MC’s role to be your WW IC. An MC’s main task IMHO is to help a couple create methods to effectively communicate. Good communication is a combination of speaking – a lot of listening – and finding ways to resolve differences without either feeling like they lost – because if that happens then the communications become about winning more than results.

We have a hard time accepting words used to explain or justify why our spouse had an affair. Like calling it a "bad choice" sounds dismissive, sort-of like she chose a bad wine wine with the expensive steak - but frankly it’s the truth. It’s a better choice of words than the dreaded "it was a mistake", but maybe the least painful words would be "bad decision". What is probably missing is the realization of the enormity of that bad choice/decision and the possible consequences.

What is important to understand – what the MC needs to get across and your WW to acknowledge – is that WW made a conscious, thought-out decision to cheat. It wasn’t impulsive, it wasn’t a mistake. At any time in the process from initial flirting to eventually full-on affair there were stages where she could have decided otherwise. She had opportunities all along the way to decide otherwise, but at each stage she consciously decided to go a step further. It wasn’t a "bad choice" but a series of decisions. And no – none of the decisions were because there were issues in the marriage – that’s like saying "despite being diabetic I’m having another slice of cake because my car’s transmission is failing" – justifying a wrong decision by using unrelated issues.

I mentioned this way back on page 1 on this thread.
I have this comparison. It’s one I have used several times, and each time I wonder if it’s apt to do so. I think one of the more heinous crimes committed is rape. I’m not going to equate rape and infidelity. But the two things have some things in common... but want to elaborate here.

For one, the shame that the rape victims often experience is a lot like the shame we BS experience. Why did she cheat? What was I lacking? In what ways was OM better?
Then there is the sense of powerlessness. Just like a rape victim didn’t expect or ask to be raped, we didn’t ask or expect to be cheated on.
Then there is the plethora of excuses or reasons for the rape, often piled on the victim. Like what did you expect wearing that sexy dress, you lead him on, this was the third date and you did have the lobster and expensive wine, everyone knows that’s a dangerous part of town... Sort of like we are experiencing – we weren’t appreciative, not attentive, took them for granted...

If you grasp what I’m trying to share using the rape comparison: Ask your MC if he would ever expect a rape-victim to accept accountability for being raped, or for even having created the situation and conditions where she could be raped. Point out the similarities, and add the complexity of that YOU – the victim – are working at reconciling with HER – the person that did all this. How the healing from THAT needs to be part of the process, because otherwise all you will end up is good communications when divorcing.

my mindset is very much that it is her job to fix the marriage and mine to fix myself.

I am in disagreement on this statement. You need to fix yourself, she needs to fix herself, you BOTH need to fix the marriage.

For example: If she were to take action to improve your ability to trust her, then if YOU don’t take action to appreciate and maybe accept that trust then there isn’t any good in what she did. It’s a mutual process. For a marriage to work, BOTH need to work.

my mindset is very much that it is her job to fix the marriage and mine to fix myself.

I don't know why I said this, but will chalk up to a brainfart. What I meant is that I want her to lead the reconciliation rather than me to have to drag her along. Probably though it's something we need to walk hand and hand. Right now I think she wants R but wishes the work were easier.

An MC’s main task IMHO is to help a couple create methods to effectively communicate. Good communication is a combination of speaking – a lot of listening – and finding ways to resolve differences without either feeling like they lost

My frustration here is MC doesn't want WS to do IC because they might interfere or undermine the process. I feel this stops WS from properly understanding her "why" to any great depth and also to deal with things like "why did you CHOOSE" to be unfaithful and keep choosing again and again, from the first simple step past the boundary to each successive one (rather than why were you unhappy). I agree with the analogies you use and will share that with the MC esp. being good communciators while divorcing.

Does knowing her "why?" matter? I don't know. I'm grasping at straws in some ways. What can she do that will ever make things better?

I remain mindful that I am choosing to be here now. I can choose differently tomorrow, next week, etc. Having this agency helps, greatly.

Ideally she should be able to figure out what to do but that is just too much for some WS. Particularly with the emotions involved and the fight flight response consistently activated. So if you are still open to potentially pursuing R in a committed fashion then I would ask you to consider:

Are you offering her enough feedback and guidance? She sounds like she needs it to be able to help you. Consider doing it via letters if one on one dialogue triggers her fight/flight response. Then follow up to answer questions and seek alignment after she absorbs the letter. Does that make sense?

I want to resist this idea but I see some sense in it. She figured out how to do what she did, now she can't follow basic instructions. I have given her links and articles and videos. I've asked her to share what she's looked at. I have said "IF YOU WANT TO COMMUNICATE YOU ARE COMMMITTED TO R, DOING THIS WILL HELP ME". Still seems to fail to land, however, I found she created an Instragram (at my request) to view the videos I've been sending her. My hope is this will help her get it.

Fortunately I am stubborn and will not engage in pretend normal. I have a few timeframes in mind in terms of "off-ramp checkpoints".

- After family holiday in Jan

- At Dday + 1 year

- Dec 2027 (after eldest finishes highschool)

- Dec 2030 (after younger sons finish highschool)

I'm not saying that I will be "done" by any of those points, but for Jan and DDay+1year, are we making progress.

Done by Dec 2027 feels ambitious but I should be comfortable it's gone in the right direction.

Dec 2030 - I will be out of infidelity for the most part. I refuse to grow to be 75 and wish I'd left 25 years earlier.

Of course, R could derail at any point, so I'm open to that possibility also.

[This message edited by nrtd at 10:41 AM, Wednesday, December 3rd]

I want her to lead the reconciliation rather than me to have to drag her along

Spot on OP!! You are absolutely correct how she was plenty "smart" enough to get herself into this situation so she’s smart enough to learn and work her way out. If & when she becomes truly motivated to R, instead of just damage control which she seems to be doing now, she absolutely has the ability to research & take the lead on R. Consider telling her that if you haven’t already. She *should* quickly find that the MC’s advice to not start IC is insanely wrong. She *should* be defending you in MC, and owning all responsibility for her evil choices, patiently understanding the wicked rollercoaster SHE signed you up for, unwillingly.

I hope you continue to refuse to lead her through R. Those BS who do NEVER succeed, unless staying married at any cost is the goal. Glad to see it doesn’t seem to be with you.

Bit of an update since it has been a month since my last post. I will preface this by saying things feel like they are slowly heading in the right direction.

Early December I was continuing to struggle with WS "getting it". She had pushed back against some of the videos I had asked her to watch and was exhibiting consistent / ongoing defensiveness.

I got pretty drunk at the office Christmas party and wrote a pretty nasty text message to WS which I managed to bin before sending. I don't normally abuse alcohol, but was not in a good state that night. I elected to sleep in the guest bedroom.

We had a big fight in mid-Dec when WS threatened to leave. The day prior I wasn't mentally "present" during my son's birthday and wasn't helpful when I should have been (a triggering issue for WS). She was upset with my son and yelling at him, I intervened instead of letting her lay into him and WS didn't like that (not aligning on child discipline / "undermining" WS in front of the kids has been a point of contention previously). WS stormed out, pretended to pack her suitcase but ultimately we made up.

We had MC heading into the Christmas break. I haven't been thrilled with R progress generally and the MC sessions so I went in with an agenda (that I shared with MC).

1. to make repair and defensiveness critical issues to deal with right now
2. for WS to write down her work and show me (WS has been saying she is doing work but then can't provide details)
3. to talk about our fight
4. me wanting WS to take the lead in repair (being proactive)

MC session was very good. The win out of it was MC cutting down WS on her defensiveness and confirming what I had been saying, and also agreeding WS needed to communicate in the way I needed and asked for (writing down the work). I also got called out on a few things about the marriage which was fine. Overall our marriage is in tatters, we are poor communicators and so need to be better at a lot of stuff. I don't take issue with any of that and we need to deal with that too, but like somebody said earlier in this thread, if all we do is work on communication, then we'll communicate well when divorced.

XMAS was a bit of a chore. Had a long drive with the fam but dealt with the rumination that accompanied me during the drive well enough.

I was feeling pretty blue post-XMAS. I hadn't seen any proactiveness and was becoming fixated on moving into the spare room and resigned to the idea this was going to go in the wrong direction (i.e. self healing for me only + D). However, WS asked for a check-in and broke down in tears, expressing her guilt and regret for her choices and behaviour. She showed me all the notes she had made documenting self reflection and what she had been learning. For me that felt like a turning point. She asked for a subsequent checkin a few days later.

In all I am feeling positive about the steps she is taking. It feels like the start of a new phase in our repair efforts and I'm feeling hopeful. I have been holding on to my anger and hurt to fuel separation/D if needed. It feels like I can take steps to start working through those in earnest without being minimised.

Thanks all! I know the season won't be going well for many and I can see the front page is full of other unfortunates. For me, I am in a much better place than when I first posted and the insights you have shared have been invaluable in getting to where I am now.

Appreciate the update NRTD. It does sound like things are heading in a more positive direction as far as your WW starting to take some ownership and showing she's willing to do some of the work you need her to do. I hope things continue to positively progress no matter which direction you decide to choose.

So I'm talking to the wife yesterday and we get on the topic of trickle truth in the beginning of the affair. I ask what was the motivation. She said " You were going to leave me and nobody would have blamed you, the kids would have hated me and I would have been left with nothing" I said that's the risk you took. She agreed. This is 12 years later. It took a long time to have that conversation. So remember you have a much greater influence on this outcome than you ever did. You get to start from scratch. But if there is one thing I wish I had done it is getting myself help early on. Help to stop the rumination, help to stop the panic attacks . You think you can do it on your own but it is a relentless beast. Back then betrayal trauma wasn't a thing. Now it's PTSD . Getting help with this early on and getting the tools to mitigate the damage is crucial. The more your neural pathways get programmed with the infidelity the worse it will be years later. And it's a lot. Your dealing with dipshits decisions, a failed marriage and kids you will protect with your life. You will push your needs to the back while you try to keep your family together. I get it. But if I could do one thing it would have been to get myself help for the PTSD so it didn't have a chance to seep into everything years later. I thought if I just had every detail every thought every emotion I would feel better. I would understand it. I could make sure it never happened again. That's just a pile of bullshit your mind does to try and protect you from the unprotectable. The truth is your marriage may or may not survive. But you will need to fix you. Because this breaks you. And if I had gotten help earlier it may of speeded up my recovery. So start working on you.

I have been holding on to the hurt and anger as a energy store in the event I needed it to move on. I was sort of worried that if I did my work and she didn't I would be "over it" and inadvertently allowed her to rug sweep.

I can see that isn't going to work but I'm struggling to see another viable path so am looking for another perspective. How can I tackle this by "fixing myself" in the marriage and then moving to D if she doesn't properly do her work.

I.e. In 2 years if she still hasn't sorted herself out (explored her why, put in place countermeasures, improved her empathy etc) what will I have done to be okay with me but not okay with her and take the decision to separate? I think that I need to be able to get to that place but don't know how.

To be clear she is taking baby steps and I am okay with her being slower, but she is avoidant and may never do the really difficult work. Example : MC gave her an apology template beyond just a simple "sorry". She isnt even trying to use it. It makes no sense for me to refuse to fix myself if she won't/cant but I am confused about how to.

I don't know if I've explained myself well here.

I should add that I am not looking for tips on how to make her do anything. I am transparent with her about what is/isn't working for me (this is a new skill for me as I am typically a people pleaser).

This is only about my mindset and actions for me to get ME right even if she never does anything more than what she has already.

Don’t feel like you need to explain yourself. There are no right answers and writing things down can be a valuable way to help you process them. I’d recommend reading your old posts after writing a new one. It may feel like a different person wrote them at times.

We are here for you, even if it is just to listen.