SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I read something in another post that got me thinking. The post was about the BP resisting moving forward. Someone said something about how the BP has the moral high ground in the beginning of R, and needs to check themselves as things progress so they don't stay in that position of superiority.

I am there. 11+ years after dday, I still feel superior to my H in almost every way. The only thing that I don't think I'm superior to my H in is looks. I think we are equal in that department.

Maybe if my H weren't so slow in changing himself I wouldn't feel this way. He's been trying, and it's so hard for him. He's not introspective. He's not a thinker at all.

While I understand why he behaves the way he does (foo), I don't understand why anyone would behave that way. He's a grown man who's ego is so fragile that he's emotionally frozen in helpless child mode. I think that's what keeps me feeling superior. It seems so weak to me. At some point, we all have to realize we are the masters of ourselves.

That was me. 🙂

… and needs to check themselves as things progress so they don't stay in that position of superiority.

Really, the point I was trying to make is that that sense of superiority, and the exercising of it, can serve the ego. Who doesn’t like being right?

The question is, is that feeling of superiority, and the boost it gives to your ego, strong enough that you would stay in a position of suffering to retain it?

Holding the moral high ground and 7 bucks gets me a fancy cup of coffee.

Moral superiority gains me nothing if I want a balanced, all in, vulnerable relationship.

If I can't have a balanced, all in, vulnerable relationship, then it would be time for me to move on and be single.

I didn't make the same choices as my wife, but I have also NOT been nominated for Sainthood. I do not think that nomination is on the horizon either, I'm simply not close to being perfect.

I'm funny, cooler than Elvis and smart enough to not yell at the cop who pulled me over for speeding. Other than that, I am human, so is my wife and I can't believe I find new ways to make mistakes after six plus decades on the planet.

I understand people stay for all kinds of reasons, but no way I could be around someone I didn't respect anymore.

While I don’t agree with Dr Phil often, his catchphrase "how’s that working for you?" springs to mind.

He says that we can get caught in "right-fighting", which is a need to be superior and the person who is right. And we can sacrifice a lot in the process of being right, including losing relationships because we want to prove how right we are.

It hasn’t worked for me. I would rather be loved than have to be right about everything.

I don't need to be right. That's not what it's about. And, it's working pretty well for me, all things considered. My family is in tact. I have a comfortable, privileged life. I don't do anything I don't want to do. I have no desire to find someone new.

Idk. Maybe it's my age (postmenopausal), but I don't feel the need to have a close, vulnerable, romantic relationship. For the most part, I like my life as it is.

I'm definitely not perfect. I've never claimed to be. Being superior to my H is a long way from being perfect. 😉 I don't think it's about moral superiority, either. I don't subscribe to the conventional ideas of morality (or much of anything else).

I'm trying to figure it out because that statement got me thinking. 🤷‍♀️

Coco, we've known each other for about a decade on this site and it's been rather clear to me for a long time that you feel quite a bit of contempt for your husband. It also seems that your okay with it, that he's just good enough to keep around, affording you a comfortable lifestyle.

I've often wondered, but never asked, if you think that's fair, honest and authentic. Tough question, I know. No judgement here, dear lady. Only curiosity.

Unhinged,

No, it's probably not fair. Initially, that was my intention. He told me at one point that he thought I was only with him for the money and wouldn't care if he cheated. So, I decided I'd show him what it was like to have a wife who was only in it for the benefits.

As the years have gone by, I have softened some towards him. I see him trying to be a better partner, even if it's tiny, slothlike movements. I do struggle with contempt for him. I can't get passed how weak and stupid he was. It astounds me.

Dishonest and inauthentic, no, because I've told him all of this. He chooses to stay with me. He says that if this is as good as it gets, he'll still take it.

To my surprise, he has finally taken the initiative to start IC again. He's retiring from the military in June. I told him that I hoped he would pursue IC now that he doesn't have to worry about it affecting his military career. He said he was already on it. He had requested counseling as part of his exit whateveritis that they do when you leave the military.

Idk. Maybe it's my age (postmenopausal), but I don't feel the need to have a close, vulnerable, romantic relationship. For the most part, I like my life as it is.

As I noted, people choose all kinds of reasons to stay.

I’m good with anyone who is good with their life.

I’m just adding in, if I choose to stay, I need to respect the person and have some kind of balance. In our early days, respect was something we each fought over and the upside of R is, we don’t play those games or compete with each other anymore.

I don’t need a relationship at all, strangely enough, I never have — it was a part of my wife’s rationalizations, since I didn’t seem to need her.

However, if I am going to hang out with someone, joy has to be a part of it.

I don’t know how romantic my wife and are, but she is my best friend and we kind of figured out how to kind to each other every day.

I lost all respect for my H when I found out he cheated. I didn't respect him at all for many years. I think some of that respect has come back as I see the changes he's trying to make. I have been pleasantly surprised to see him really trying to examine himself just in the last couple of years. I can't respect someone who refuses to face their character defects. He's facing them now. Who knows? Maybe one day it'll all come back.

We are kind to each other now. It's important for me to be kind to my H in front of our boys. I don't need a relationship, either. I made a commitment, though, and there are very few things that would cause me to break it.

Joy is a personal struggle for me. I've had major depressive disorder since I was 13. There are very few things that bring me joy. My boys are the one thing that bring me joy. My H is not a joyful person. He's pretty grumpy most of the time. 🤷‍♀️

Are you modeling to your boys what love in a marriage is supposed to look like?

In my first marriage, we hardly ever were affectionate in front of our daughters. We didn't touch each other, give each other compliments, or say "I love you." We did exchange gifts, and while that may have been what made XW feel loved, to me, it made the relationship feel transactional. That is what we demonstrated to our daughters for much of their childhood. My second and current marriage is much different, of course, but for many years they would get upset whenever WW and I were affectionate in front of them. So we refrained from it during the little time they spent with us. Now that they are basically adults, I am starting to see this reflected in their own relationships.

It's something I think is important to think about.

Have you explored your logic in ranking character flaws? Without a doubt, his flaw which allowed him to cheat can be argued as more destructive , but it appears as though he has stopped that behavior. I understand how you feel as I have struggled with the same judgment towards my husband and his deeds. It took a long time (not a decade though), before I accepted that we all have character flaws and as long as our behavior is checked and we behave decently despite the flaws or quirks it’s the best we can do. It sounds as though your husband has. Perhaps concentrating on his positive qualities and the good he brings to your life rather than his flaws and past sins will allow you to see him in a new light. If he ended his cheating and has remained devoted to the family since his cheating I see that as a man working on himself and being a better human. That alone is admirable and worthy of respect.

If he ended his cheating and has remained devoted to the family since his cheating I see that as a man working on himself and being a better human. That alone is admirable and worthy of respect.

I think it depends on why and how they do this. Did my H do this because he truly loves me and wants to be with me? Or, did he do this because he felt obligated? Or, maybe he stayed because he can't handle failing at M? His biggest fear is being a failure. It is hard for me to believe that he truly loves me and wants to be with me because I'm me since he cheated.

My H needs to stop a lot of other toxic behaviors besides the cheating. Like I've said a few times, I finally started seeing real effort from in the past few years. That does help.

I do think of the positives he contributes. I learned to do that very early on in our M. Every time I would have a negative thought about him, I'd think of 3 positives. That has been harder to do since he cheated. The positives about him were destroyed when he cheated. It turned everything he presented himself as being was a lie.

Darkdustythoughts,

Idk that modeling affectionate touching is a necessity. My dad and stepmom loved each other very much. They didn't show each other much affection in front of me. Different people do different things.

That being said, we can be physically affectionate towards each other in front of our boys. We hug and kiss. We hold hands. I try to get him to randomly dance with me. He's not much of a dancer and he's definitely not silly. I'm the silly one.

I think you all are imagining a lot of tension in our home. There isn't. We get along well now. I hope our boys see that M is serious business. It's a commitment. It's not something to go into casually. It takes work. And, maybe the most important thing, feelings ebb and flow. That's when the commitment has to come in. Love is a choice. Our boys see us choosing each other every day, even when we may be angry at each other.

I've seen too many couples split up over the most minor things because they didn't understand that. I suspect that may be one of the reasons that people cheat, too. My H said he thought I didn't love him after I caught him. Maybe if he had the courage to tell me that before, I could've reassured him.

Does his reasoning for ending his cheating and devotion to family mean less to you if his reasons for doing so aren’t all centered around love for you? Does the comfy lifestyle you’ve described that he provides mean less or more depending on his reasoning? For me, one’s actions are far more deserving of respect than what’s in one’s heart which we can never truly know anyways. It’s been said that love is a verb, not a feeling. It’s quite likely he feels unloved and disrespected by you yet he remains. I am not usually one to stick up for the cheater, but at some point the cheater needs to be given the grace to show they are no longer that person. Cheating is horrible and certainly a reason to end a marriage, but in my opinion, a reformed cheater should not have to pay the rest of their life with a commitment to a spouse who no longer can garner love, respect, and gratitude for their contribution and devotion to family. Would the man he is today be someone you respected and loved if he’d never cheated? For my own sanity and his, I had to eventually evaluate my marriage and my husband specifically for who he is today rather than the worst thing he’s ever done. I’ve never cheated, but pulled some crap in my life that I am relieved have been forgiven for and offered grace to do better.

Character flaws

My H's: lack of integrity, honesty, empathy, courage, pettiness

Mine: I can't think of any. 😆 Seriously, tho, my H says I'm unreliable. A lot of people would probably say I'm lazy. I'm sure there's more.

Does your husband still have all those flaws? Does he still lack honesty and integrity or is that assumption based on his former cheating? Is he still a liar? As far as lack of
Courage, isn’t he in the military? I think anyone in the military for longterm must have courage. Perhaps he lacks courage in areas that matter to you, but no one is courageous in all things. I don’t think a human exists that isn’t annoying at times. I adore my adult kids, but even they drive me up the wall sometimes. Hell, I don’t even like myself everyday. I know for a long time it was much easier to dwell on things that I don’t like about my husband , because "he cheated". It took a long time for me to realize how unfair that was if I truly wanted to stay with him and save the marriage.

My H is a people pleaser, codependent, avoidant, and passive aggressive. He needs to be seen as a "good" person to the outside world. So, yes, he's still dishonest and a liar. It's not malicious on his part. I think he doesn't even realize that what he's doing is dishonest and deceitful. It all stems from his childhood foo. He learned to pretend to be what his parents wanted to keep himself safe. Now, he continues that behavior with me.

Because he's codependent, he does a lot of things for the rest of us. However, it's not out of true love and caring. It's ultimately for himself to control situations and avoid conflict. IOW, it's to keep himself safe.

Because he's avoidant, he doesn't talk to me about anything, literally anything. Our MC has finally realized that this is true after years of seeing. I think she couldn't believe that someone would not communicate anything. She expressed shock when she realized it was true.

That's why it matters to me why he stays. It seems to me that he stays to keep himself in good standing in the eyes of others. Everything he does is ultimately for himself under the guise of caring for others. If I had known these things about him when I met him, I would not have respected him. I would not have married him.

If he feels unloved or disrespected, that's on him. If he had done the things I said I needed in the beginning of R, specifically IC, things might be different now. He didn't and here we are 11 years later. He needs to tell me what he's thinking and feeling so we can talk about it. He hasn't because he doesn't have the courage.

And, as I've said, he has started to make progress in the last couple of years. He is now aware and accepting of his issues. He has finally taken the initiative wrt IC.

I hope I answered all your questions. If not, ask again.

It is hard for me to believe that he truly loves me and wants to be with me because I'm me since he cheated.

Is this really how he feels, or is it that you feel that you, as a person, are not worthy of fidelity and love? And if it’s the latter, is that coming from infidelity shattering your self worth, or from somewhere else? Both? That might be a good discussion to have with him— unless, of course, you don’t care whether he really loves you and wants to be with you or not. I say that in response to your earlier statement that you could do without a vulnerable, romantic relationship at this point in your life and the implication that you’re still in the marriage for convenience.

Are there other ways that he expresses love for you besides remaining in the marriage? Just like your exercise of thinking of three positives for every negative, you could intentionally look for demonstrations of his true feelings, and weigh those against your suspicions that he feels obligated or fears "failing at marriage."

Maybe you are projecting your own feelings onto him? You say that you made a commitment and you’re going to see it through, and you don’t want to see your sons suffer from your divorce, if I recall correctly. Maybe you feel obligated to stay and fear failing them? I mean no offense by any of this, of course. I’m only asking questions, and I promise to believe your answers.

It’s hard not to imagine a lot of tension in your home after reading the words you write here. Maybe this is just an outlet for your feelings of anger and hurt, but it often reads as a great deal of contempt for him. 11 years is a very long time to be feeling this way, as I’m sure you know.

Because he's codependent, he does a lot of things for the rest of us. However, it's not out of true love and caring. It's ultimately for himself to control situations and avoid conflict. IOW, it's to keep himself safe.

How do you know that it’s one vs the other? As someone who is also very codependent with my loved ones and has a history of being conflict-avoidant, I know that much of what I do is done both out of love for my family and a desire to avoid conflict. I want for them to be happy and fulfilled as much as I want for there to be peace, however much it costs me.

I’m very thankful that my wife encourages me to share my feelings about things instead of stuffing them, as my FW and FOO effectually trained me to do, because she values my happiness as well. She lets me know that those feelings matter to her and that she’s willing to hear them and compromise without getting angry or punishing me for them later. Does your H have a safe space to share his? If he does, maybe he just needs a reminder of that every once in a while. Sometimes we forget and revert back to old habits.

If he feels unloved or disrespected, that's on him.

Is it really, though?

While I understand that many people buy into all the psychological labels I never have. If they do exist I don’t think one person is typically all of one thing. It’s not black and white. Being labeled codependent doesn’t mean every action is without thought and love for others. Furthermore, I don’t think we can ever know what’s truly in another’s heart. For me, if my husband treats me well and is mostly pleasant and good company, I never give a second thought to his reasoning. I’d never consider him a liar for acting kind and nice even if I felt it was against his basic character. 🤷‍♀️ that’s just me. In other words, his actions are far more important to me than his feelings behind those actions. If I held him accountable for feelings behind in any act of service I’d have to do the same for myself and quite frankly, my actions don’t always match my feelings but I try to do what’s loving and kind whether I feel it or not. 🤷‍♀️ example, sometimes I may agree to sex when I am not really in the mood simply so he feels loved and appreciated. Does that mean I am a liar for pretending to be all in? I don’t think so. Ironically, other than his past cheating, your husband sounds lovely. 😬🤷‍♀️

Holding the moral high ground and 7 bucks gets me a fancy cup of coffee.

Moral superiority gains me nothing if I want a balanced, all in, vulnerable relationship.

If I can't have a balanced, all in, vulnerable relationship, then it would be time for me to move on and be single.

Might be for you, and I understand that. Balanced, yes. Vulnerable, sure...

Fact is, I don't think R is "all in". This is a point I know that I'm not on the same page as many members here.

R exists, inherently, in uncertainty. You are taking a second shot with someone that has proven they are not all in; that has proven they can betray you. The only way to keep this relationship balanced, for me, is to not actually be all in. I'm not saying "give less than 100% effort", I'm saying I leave to option open for me to leave if I change my mind. Which maybe is the same think you are saying about "time to move on and be single".

Maybe, at some point, my view of this could change. I recognize that as a possibility. But I'm perfectly happy being "in it for now" for as long as that lasts, instead of "all in" which feels like marriage 1.0 stuff.

Fact is, I don't think R is "all in".

Absolutely on the same page as you with regards to this.

Unfortunately infidelity wrecked my ability to love and trust my WH the way I did before. I have told him many times that staying together is fine but it will never be the same. Whilst I still love him it is very tainted and I will never truly be 100% content in this marriage. And whether is lasts till the day we die or only for another year no one knows, only time will tell.