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Look at how you and your children are suffering from her abuse cycle. There will be no happy Christmas. The best present that you can give them is a functioning father and for him to be a hero and stop the abuse. Getting a lawyer and starting action with a sense of urgency will be the best, most selfless, gift that you will ever give them.

Thank you everyone for the support. I can't believe what a spiraling whirlwind this horrible experience is. Hour to hour and minute to minute has been crazy.

It really sucks there are so many of us but I'm thankful to have the resources and support.

Not sure where you are headed friend.
In one sentence it’s like you are determined to divorce, then the next it’s about reconciliation. Like why the MC, and why have a separation agreement if you aren’t intended on separating?

That’s OK – Most of us are really confused this shortly after d-day so there is no expectation or requirement of having fully determined where you want to be in a year. It’s sensible to have that separation formally lodged, but it’s a bit like taking your gun out of the safe because you hear noises in your house – you risk shooting someone unintentionally more than while it was locked away.

But I do want to suggest you do your best to cut out all the drama around you.

To calm things down – to your own advantage and for your kids.
Do that and it simplifies everything, and that in turn makes seeing your future easier.

Things like throwing out her dress and the rings, talking about MY house, MY car and all that... That’s drama. In reality chances are it’s marital house, marital car, marital asset, marital debt... things that neither of you can really keep the other in or from.

I’m going to suggest a couple of things to calm things down and probably make life easier for you.

Make all stakeholders clear on what is going on. A letter is overkill IMHO. It’s enough for most of them to simply know that you discovered that your wife was cheating at the time of marriage, invited OM to the marriage, and has admitted to other affairs since then. The last one only recently while in the family-car. That this discovery has completely shattered your thoughts on where the two of you were, and what a marriage should be. That it’s not clear to you if there is anything to salvage or not.
The goal of this is not to get people to choose sides or pass moral judgement on either of you. It’s simply to let everyone know what’s going on.
You can ask people to respect you and your decision, maybe even to help in making both of you decide correctly, but also make it clear this is YOUR issue and YOU will make any final decision.

Remove proven toxic people from your life. I’m mainly aiming at those that knew and helped or that friend who attacked you on the other site. You tell your wife that you don’t know if you will eventually reconcile or divorce, but that "friend" needs to go permanently. Her adherence to that requirement will be sort of a litmus test for if you might eventually think R is a possibility.

Clarify your stance with your sister. If this ends in d then it will 99% fall into the classic lines: Your in-laws will support your wife/ex wife, and you will need your family. You have enough battles to fight ahead. You want things to calm with her because you might need her.

Let your wife know what you are thinking. Like if you already have a filed separation agreement then that’s pretty clear IMHO. But let her know that her actions in the near future might sway you, no guarantee but things like accountability, fidelity and interactions with those involved in the affair (OM, friend..) will count heavily. No promises – but in might calm things around her.

Set her free. Don’t stress about if she’s meeting OM or the friend or whatever. If she is, it will become clear in the coming months, and that will tell you everything you need to know. Rather than YOU stress about her actions – make it hers to convince you she’s on the right path.

Finally – if you can adapt a mentality of what happened happened. All that’s in your power is how to move on. There wont be any revenge (other than you go and live a good life) or no way to make what happened go away. Things won’t get worse – even if you discover ongoing affairs or more dirt from the past. Any new discovery is simply info for you to base your future on – with or without her.

Forgot this:
The VAR is a sensible precaution. Maybe your smartphone can do this.
The key factor to make it "legal" is to make certain the party being recorded is aware of the recording.
If things are escalating and you fear a false domestic abuse charge – take out the VAR, and start the recording by very clearly saying "For my own safety I am recording this conversation. Are you Mrs Gemmy aware that I am recording? Repeat if required.

Bigger, just a quick line here to thank you for your info about that other matter, I had no idea. Thank you for answering my question!

Gemmy, I read your story and was heart broken by it. I am so sorry you are going through this. We all say it and we all mean it. I can't tell you what to do, I can only give you my own thoughts and reactions which may or may not be useful or helpful.
First of all, I think anyone who cheats around a wedding - before, during (yeah that happens too!), honeymoon, within first year....is not committed to the marriage, or maybe any marriage. Some people are NOT marriage material. Not marriage material, not monogamy, not open relationship, not nothing...just not relationship material. To cheat at that time means there is no basic commitment to the marriage, it's being done for other reasons. Maybe because it's "time" to get married, pressure from family, desire to have children, the proposed spouse looks like a good Plan B if they can't find the Plan A they want, maybe it's a financial arrangement - whatever. But when you find out someone has cheated on you at that time - around the wedding, beginning of the marriage, it means they were never committed to the marriage in the first place. So do not worry about anything you did, or didn't do, or said, or what happened, or didn't happen, or how you felt, or how she felt or any of that - she was never into you in the first place, this is not your fault, this is her nature, and she was NEVER committed to the marriage. I think when you start off this way, I don't think it really gets any better. People pretend, they develop a persona, which is what I think she did, they get good at lying and covering up, but the real person - the core person....is never there. You don't know your wife, you only know what was presented to you. NOW you are getting to know your wife, and she is NOT marriage material for you or anyone else. SO DO NOT BLAME YOURSELF FOR ANYTHING - she IS the essential problem. She never loved you. I really want you to understand that....it's not your fault, it's not you, it's not anything you did or said EVER....it's from the start - it's all her. She decided you were acceptable for this purpose and went ahead with it and then did her supplementary real life on the side. The affairs are the REAL her. Always remember this.

I know a lot about mental illness and substance abuse, etc, I've seen a lot of it in my family, I grew up with it. The panic attacks are a controlling device. I'm not saying she does't have them, but it's how she uses them. Frankly I literally DO have panic attacks - it's a physical-psychological condition brought up by an entire childhood of abuse and neglect. So I have period when I get overwhelmed, usually by physical stimuli. I take medication for this. BUT I DON'T USE IT AS AN EXCUSE OR TO CONTROL OR BLAME OTHERS. She does. She uses this as a way to control you and the situation. I don't give a shit about her "panic attacks" even if they feel real to her because of how she's using it to control your reactions, your behavior, your emotions and how others deal with you. Don't let her control you - if she starts the panic attack bullshit, leave if you can or call an EMT but do not respond to it. Leave the room, if she does get bad, call an EMT. If she has to face an actual result for this bullshit, she'll stop. This is like suicide threats - people usually do this in relationships to control the other person, if they continue, I would call in the professionals.

You have a problem, I've seen in other relationships where the wife deliberately uses the spectre of domestic violent - fake claims of DV again to CONTROL THE RELATIONSHIP AND CONTROL THE PERSPECTIVES OF OTHERS. Your wife, IMO, is an absolute piece of shit. I HATE women who do this as they make it so hard for others. A friend of mine had a wife who cheated on him for a couple of years, and stole hundreds of thousands of dollars from marital funds, and then started telling him she couldn't be alone with him for discussions, etc, because she was "afraid". She was trying to set up the DV scenario bullshit and unfortunately the woman is almost always default believed (I often don't believe them personally cause I know how women lie) but it's the default because a man could seriously hurt or kill a much weaker woman....of course. To me the answer to this is always to protect yourself by recording what's going on between you when you have to be together. Depending on the law where you are, you have to let them know (some areas you don't - you can have 1 sided recording but be governed by your local laws), but I would always record transactions, write them down afterwards, document document. YOU CAN NEVER TRUST THIS WOMAN EVER AGAIN ABOUT ANYTHING, ANYTHING AT ALL. Everything should be documented and hopefully recorded. Don't ever trust her again about anything, I cannot stress this enough, and NO, she will not change and therapy won't matter. This is how she is and how she has been from the start, you just didn't challenge her before. Now that she's exposed...you're a threat that has to be contained.

I would not advise reconciliation of any type, what is there to reconcile? And she will always have the upper hand because she's a good liar, she can put on a good show, and she willing to create DV scenarios that will always endanger you. Again, talk to a good lawyer, your aim should be DIVORCE, and ask about how to do this safely. DO NOT RECONCILE FOR THE KIDS. This kids, as you've indicated know something is wrong and it sounds like at least 1 of them senses it's Mom. I would get out of the house, find another place and see the kids separately. Unfortunately this is the situation she has created and you don't know to what lengths she will go to remain dominant. You just don't. Assume the worst. Minimum contact directly with her, hopefully recorded, documented, or witnessed, is best.

Once you get out of the house, except for the kids go minimum contact with documentation as I say. Don't have sex with her again as she could use that against you and if she gets pregnant with a boyfriend she could say it's yours, etc. Get an STD test. Always assume she is lying, do not do any marriage counseling with her, do not accept overtures, alway assume the worst. She's never loved you from the start, you were a means to some end in her mind. I'm sorry but...that is the way it is.

As for the kids, when it is safe enough, probably when you no longer live in the house, tell them, age appropriate, the truth. Tell them Mom has boyfriends and has been doing this since you were married. If they want to know why, they have to ask her, but that's what's going on. She'll have some bullshit to tell them, but always tell your kids the truth. ALWAYS, in an age appropriate manner. They know something very bad is going on and they may even sense why. So don't lie, it undermines your credibility and your relationship with your kids.

As for your sister, I have to disagree with Bigger on this one. I'd cut her out. Not in a angry or attacking way, but just be aware that this person has known you her entire life and she still sided with your wife without even hearing out your story or giving a remote shit. She really thinks YOU are the type of person who would do DV? Then she is NOT someone you should ever trust or have anything to do with other than the bare minimal. Don't let people into your life once they have screwed you over.....she's shown you what she is and what she thinks of you. BELIEVE IT. Some women are so into feminist ideology that it trumps anything else including their relationships with their own male family members. You don't need this.

I'm sorry to seem so negative. It's the way I am because of what I've seen in life and most of the time....I'm right. I don't believe in unicorns, or fairies suddenly flying out people's asses, or the cheater suddenly SEE THE LIGHT! or any bullshit like that. I believe in protecting yourself, being honest and authentic, not allowing other people MORE opportunities to hurt you and admitting the truth about people and situations even if it hurts. It's best to call cancer what it is and treat ir properly than hope for the best. Find yourself a hard nosed divorce lawyer and work this out with him or her, the best plan for you and your kids. BUT DON'T STAY IN THIS SHIT SHOW....you're endangering yourself and your kids and you don't know how bad this can get. This woman will not improve with age.

My advice, skip the MC, focus on IC for you. MC early on is a mistake as the MC's primary focus is for the two of you to the affairs behind you and focus on building a brand new shiny sparkly marriage :/

I made that mistake, didn't know any better. Our MC focused on improving our communication skills. I think it was our third session when I asked are we going to talk about the reason why we are here. The MC said yes but first you need to learn how to communicate better so you can have that conversation. I had no interest in following the Gottman manual page by page so as soon as the MC would start with the Gottman stuff I would derail the conversation and force it towards discussing the affair.

IMO you are VERY far away from working on your relationship. Your wife has an incredible amount of work to do on herself before you should even consider staying in the relationship. At this point she is not a safe partner and definitely not worth effort on your part

ETA: If legal, record every conversation, every interaction with her and do not tell her, again if one party recording is legal. Do not be surprised if she pretends to be remorseful but is planning to sabotage you

[This message edited by WB1340 at 12:24 PM, Monday, November 24th]

ETA: If legal, record every conversation, every interaction with her and do not tell her, again if one party recording is legal. Do not be surprised if she pretends to be remorseful but is planning to sabotage you

If one party recording is not legal where you're at I would still record, but announce that you're recording so that she hears it and it's picked up by the VAR. Preferably with her acknowledging that she knows you're recording. I do not think you're safe to be alone with her without some sort of protection like this.

She really thinks YOU are the type of person who would do DV?

As a former cop with extensive experience in dealing with domestic abuse...
If anyone can create a good, sound profile for what an abuser might look like, I would like to hear about it.
This was probably the single biggest thing that came as a surprise on putting on the badge – the number of domestic abuse calls we got every week. I can share that I went into the homes of professors, doctors, mechanics, drunk, sober, religiously pious and the ardent atheists, tattooed, clean shaven, suit, jeans... Maybe the only common denominator being that in most instances drunk... but not all. Definitely not all.

I can understand a persons decision to focus on the kids safety first and foremost. Not only that – I appreciate that response. Even if it’s at my cost. You can always clarify things, and your sister can always admit that she drew the wrong conclusion. But your kids were safe. That’s what matters – even if the danger was wrongly assessed.

You need all the friends and support you can get. Don’t alienate your family unnecessarily.

The problem here with the sister immediately siding against Gemmy, our OP, instead of sitting down and listening to both sides, which is what I would have done especially knowing my brother his entire life and knowing he's not like this, is that this could have caused him not only very serious legal problems, which might have affected his job, his image in the community and maybe even physical harm as these things can escalate with the police. This was a terrible thing to do, IMO. I have known women who have LIED about domestic violence and even plotted these charges against their husbands. I do indeed know domestic violence is real too, as my father routinely beat up my mother until my uncles beat the shit out of him, which stopped that abuse.

I don't think that the sister should have just assumed these things about her own brother without listening to the whole story and I would never trust this woman again. My advice to Gemmy is....if someone betrays you, especially in a serious way, as both his wife and sister have done....NEVER TRUST THEM AGAIN....this is what they are like and this is their default, this is what they are willing to do to YOU either for advantages (the wife) or because it's their secret opinion of you or perhaps men in general. When someone shows you who they are....BELIEVE THEM. Do not give them a second chance, another opportunity to screw you up. If this is the kind of man, your sister thinks you are, then you don't really need her in your life, you can't trust her. And that's the way it is. As I say, I wouldn't attack her or be particularly nasty, just don't involve her in anything personal, don't tell her anything about your life, and keep her at arms length. And obviously, you should NEVER trust your wife again....someone who has deceived you for years and then will try to do DV claims on you....you can't trust this person, you can't recon with them and staying with them puts you and your kids possibly in constant danger.

Again, go to the best divorce lawyer you can and work it out. Some things simply cannot and should not be saved and this woman will never be someone you will ever love or trust again. Don't do this "for the kids"....the kids know there is something wrong and this is only going to mess them up even more. You need to be authentic and honest with your life and your kids and model good behavior for them especially about standing up for yourself. YOU ARE THE ONE WHO HAS BEEN ABUSED HERE. Your wife's behavior with her nonsense about panic attacks and DV is about CONTROLLING YOU and you're going to have a miserable and possible dangerous existence. The best way to handle it is to extricate yourself as well and quickly as you can with advice from professionals, and be honest with your kids. Life is hard but people should be able to know what is affecting their lives, including kids. Don't engage in let's pretend we're really "married". You will regret it in the end.

I often say this because I see it all the time. I often see people regret years spent in recon and fake marriages....I almost never see anyone say they regret divorce. Divorce is often - and I think usually is - the best choice. I think people should only consider staying in a marriage, which is not the same as a full recon attempt, is if it BENEFITS YOU IN SOME WAY. It's your decision but I want you to be fully aware of the down side here and what might happen if you go the recon route. Your wife is a great liar - look how long she had you fooled. IMO, this is not going to change....you've never really known her from the start, and you're not going to know her. Why spend your life trying to figure out a puzzle that could blow up on you? Get out, put this relationship in a controlled situation, and then start fresh. I know it's not popular advice but....recon really doesn't work most of the time and it's just a waste of your life. You can't trust this woman, you don't really know her. And I wouldn't trust your sister either. She should have listened and given you the benefit of the doubt.

Gemmy....consider that she's not only lying to you....she's lying ABOUT you. You need to get the truth out there. The best disinfectant to lies is honesty. Let other people, who are significant to you, know what's going on and be sure you keep any and all evidence in safe places. She WILL lie about you and it may have consequences. That is another reason to work with a divorce attorney - even if you ultimately decide not to you still need someone, with experience and objectivity, on your side. You need practical support and advice.