SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

If you know you were the reliable, loving husband and she still cheated you have one huge boulder to get over. She got away with it. People always hope for Karma but this does not often happen. The opposite of love is indifference. You just don’t care where they are, what they are doing and with whom. You are still very much married to her emotionally. That is why couples counseling might help YOU. With a third party some hard words can be said. I also think you might get some help from IC. You need to be so healthy emotionally that you can protect yourself. I get why you are cautious because none of us want to feel that terror, that helplessness again. The WS has no clue the damage they have done and they might never. Life is sometimes about settling for poor seconds. Sometimes we win. But we proceed with caution.

Hi Notarunner,

Your situation is a bit unique, but I think the feelings and doubts you are having are similar to a lot of BS who are debating whether or not to give their WS a chance at R. I would recommend you continue to do a bunch of reading of other BSs who are at the beginning of their R journey. You are going to see a lot of threads dealing with some of the questions you've asked. Things like re-establishing intimacy, navigating difficult conversations and unexpected triggers, the feelings of loss that come from not feeling "special" anymore, and being unsure about whether you can re-establish trust after it has been broken.

I think it's great that you're entering into this carefully and that you have your own therapist that is trying to support you as you work on your own healing. A lot of the conversations around R relate to whether the WS is a good candidate for R, but one thing that I think is worth considering is whether YOU are someone who is cut out of R. My (totally unprofessional, completely anecdotal) opinion on R from the (extended amount of) time I've spent here is that the BSs who ARE able to R successfully are those who are able to avoid or at least examine and move past black-and-white thinking when it comes to thinking about the A and their spouse and their relationship. So much of R is about digging into and comprehending, appreciating, and having empathy for the nuance and complexities of the human condition/experience and being able to be truly open, honest, and vulnerable with one another.

I mention this because I see a lot of all-or-nothing type statements in your posts. Much of this is normal, and in fact mental/moral rigidity can be a natural response to the fight-or-flight response that comes with trauma, but it does cause me a bit of concern as I think they may impact YOUR readiness to approach R. Things like:

I can never love her the way I did before.

I dont know that I could date my wife if she slept with another person.

I will never tell my ex that I am in love with her

I can never love her without thinking of how she hurt me

...she could never say that she loves me and expect me to believe it like I used to.

Since all Waywards are capable liars..

I felt since my wife didnt end her affair ( the AP ended things to be faithful to his new girlfriend) that I was disrepected due to her AP having more morals than my wife.

That's a lot of absolutism. To be clear, there is nothing wrong with any of these beliefs or statements and I don't wish to shame you for them, or anyone else who may be thinking the same exact things. Most are perfectly normal, and I'm sure most of us have felt and thought the exact same things at certain points or another - I certainly have. My concern however is that your fixed thinking here may impede the openness and the flexibility that is needed to be truly open to building a new and happy marriage. And I would also worry that KNOWING your various red lines in the stand, your wife (who sounds like she has always wished to R) may struggle to be as open, honest, and vulnerable with you as you are going to need her to be if you wish to have the type of marriage you deserve.

It is one thing to go back into the relationship with her with caution and with your eyes wide open in a way that they were not before, but it is another to go back to it with the definitive knowledge that you never intend to try to open your heart to her again. In my view the latter is not fair to either of you.

[This message edited by emergent8 at 8:57 PM, Tuesday, January 23rd]

Hiking and Cooley. I can see the wisdom in your words.
To hiking. My wife didn’t do anything for her ex that she hasn’t done for me. I don’t think that is what your were getting at but in case it was, there you go. I guess what I want is for my ex to have yearned for me like she did her ex. I understand she is a grown woman now and we are no longer horny teens. I just want to feel important. All the actions during her affair make all of the others post affair feel diminished. To be pursued in a way that she pursued him might not heal me but it could go a long way. How did your husband deal with being tossed aside? You have mentioned years ago that it was a form of exit affair. How did he cope with that? How did you cope with his affair? I know you had a different mindset since you had been on the other side but I know it must have hurt to be replaced. What did he do to reassure you that you were what he wanted?

Cooley. I don’t want my ex to suffer. She has suffered a lot due to her affair. Her relationship with my family, her family, and her kids are forever changed. They have told her that they will always love her but they will never forgive her for hurting me. I truly want the best for my ex. I want the best for me as well. I am attached to her. She is like the comfy, worn out college sweatshirt that you wear to bed. It has "seen" some things but it’s comfortable.
My ex and I get along. We don’t fight. We don’t hang out when it’s not a family thing. She has expressed interest in us giving things another try. I could say that I am of the mindset of the devil you know.
I know I could find someone else. I struggle with the idea of putting in the effort of getting to know someone and introducing them to my kids to have things not work out. I feel optimistic that my kids and I would handle things not working out with their mother better since the expectation is less.

Emergent.
Great post. I do think I struggle with a very black and white attitude, which is weird because I recognize people are really shades of gray that depend on each situation.
My ex wife did want to reconcile. She apologized profusely and even was in her hands and knees crying on my feet apologizing. I was shocked and so very angry at each profession of her love to me. "Where was this love when you were fucking him?" "why didn’t you love me enough to not cheat on me?".
She knew what my expectations of marriage were and how badly my parents affairs affected me and my brother.
I stated the things I feel and my ex is aware of a lot of it. I have my hang ups regarding if she slept with another and she might say that she can stand the idea of me never saying I love you to her. She is well in her rights to think that it is not reasonable to have a relationship with that in mind.
I am seeing that I probably have more I need to work on.
I am lonely. I know that that is not a reason to get into a relationship. I want to be happy and share the rest of my life with someone. My ex fits the bill in almost every way. Outside of her affair she was a great partner. I do not feel that her affair made her a bad person. It did make her a bad teammate for the time she was cheating and while she was better after her affair, there will always be the asterix that she withheld the affair from me.

I guess I just want to feel important to her, important enough for her to have pined for only me.

As a dude, all I can say is I get how you feel. Don’t feel bad if some on here, mostly (all?) of the other gender, can’t understand this. You feel how you feel and that should be enough for everyone here.

As to your original question, you could ask your XW to take a polygraph affirming she hasn’t been with anyone else but you for the past X decades. It would be telling to see how she reacts to that request. If she truly loves & desires you, I bet she will jump at the chance.

I would also consider tempering your promise to never say "I love you" to her. I would tell her you don’t know if you ever can, and if she’s ok with that, then great. That way if you have a change of heart one day, you can say it as you please.

Obviously I don’t know your XW but one caution: is it POSSIBLE she wants to get back together to help blunt some of the consequences she’s received? That is, perhaps thinking if everyone sees you back together, then maybe what she did wasn’t really that bad, you’ve fully forgiven her, and all is now well. Just something to consider. Hope that’s not the case.

Love emergents post. That was something I was trying to get at in an earlier post, but she did it so wonderfully. The absolute thinking isn’t a problem. To me the idea these things are in changeable make me wonder if you will be able to reconcile with her or not.

To get at the whole exit affair thing and that was an excellent draw to correlate with "she wanted to run off with the ex boyfriend"

People can get lost in their own perceptions and narratives. The decision to have an affair wasn’t a decision to have an exit affair. It was a decision based on illogical choices that flew in the face what is actually good for me.

What would have been good of me was to appreciate my husband more. To communicate my needs more in real time instead of bundling them up and exploding emotionally about them when we logically weren’t going to solve them.
To slow down and say no to some
Responsibilities that were overwhelming me on top of my already overwhelming list of things to do. To fix my life so I could be happy.

Notice so much of what my decision making was on was based on my own dysfunction. After some therapy it started to make sense to me that it was me falling down on my duties to myself and I was holding my husband accountable for all of it.

I was running from all of it. And while I said it was an exit, I can’t say I thought I would end up with the AP. He was also in a long term marriage and lived very far away. I was more avoiding my problems by focusing on this fantasy thing. So it wasn’t a conscious exit and it wasn’t inspired by the AP of that makes sense.

As for my husband, I don’t think he was surprised I might want to exit at that juncture, he was more blind sided about the affair. We were pretty disconnected at the time of my affair, I had been emotionally and physically exhausted for an extended period of time and for the first time in our marriage we seemed to argue more than connect. So, I don’t really think he took all the reasons I wanted to exit to mean I never loved him or could never love him again.

I think what you are wanting from your ex is to be wooed, and to be shown how she feels about you. That’s natural. I just wouldn’t compare it with pining for the AP. You want to know she became reliable and is reliable. That she has dealt with her shit and is ready to fully love you in the ways that you deserve. All of it. Completely natural and I think she should show you should you choose to let her. If she hasn’t dated since you split would that give some points towards that? Like perhaps she was grieving the marriage and hoping to find her way back to you?

Just be careful not to do what I did. I told myself stories that didn’t align with my true hearts desires. That skewed my whole perspective. I told myself my husband didn’t love me. I told myself that I will never be happy in a marriage because I don’t want to be a personal servant. But my husband did love me very much, and I was the one making and allowing myself to be a servant.

So to come full circle back to what emergent’s posts said. If you look at those absolutes, that’s what your head is saying. I don’t think that’s what your heart is saying. The problem is you need to know which one to trust. So go slowly, and maybe you will find in the end that you can go to trusting your heart. It’s natural and maybe needed to be in your head a bit with this. You will know she’s done a good job pursuing you if you find yourself wanting to work on that heart part.

But you don’t need to make promises or commitments. Baby steps. If she wants you and is coming from a good place she will show you.

Gr8ful.
That is a very scary thought that my ex might want to reduce the repercussions of her actions. I don’t think it is the case but it is very sobering.
I’m glad you agree with my sentiments regarding pining but I don’t think women are just as likely if not more likely to want that feeling.
It feels good to see your lover look at you with desire. The knowledge that they want to do things with you in the dark is very exciting.
I would like to think she would be honest with me in every question I ask but she has proven that she is capable of lying to me. She was very honest at day and beyond.
I won’t go with a poly. She honestly wouldn’t have done anything wrong morally. She was single. The issue is with me. I don’t think I could handle it. I already feel less due to her actions. I’m not sure I could handle more.
I would like to think I wouldn’t think less of her but I can’t reign in my feelings on this.
I understand your view on the "I love you" I think it will be something I will have to work on.

I missed your last question, what did I do to assure him?

I worked to be consistent, transparent, i practices honesty and integrity. I also had unwound how I got to that place and showed motivated changes to take more control over my responsibilities to myself. I took accountability. I was genuine with him.

I don’t think I did a lot of big grand gesture but many many small ones as often as possible.

What have you done to heal you?

What do you do each and every day shows you that you love yourself?

What has she done to show you she will be a safe partner for you to even co sider possibly going back to the source of your pain?

What I am seeing is a person who was deeply hurt and betrayed and has not filly healed themselves. Not blaming you but really encouraging you to focus on yourself. Self love. Strength within. Understanding your worth. Knowing no matter what you do who you choose to be with that you are good and great and deserve to make you the too priority.

Hi tush. I love your name. I have done therapy. I am still going. I have maintained my weight since dday.
I know I will be okay without her. I’m just lonely and want someone to share my time with. Dogs and kids are great but they are not great at having adult conversations with.
What has my ex done to deserve a chance. Well she has been as honest as I either of us can prove. She has been supportive of my choices in the divorce and she has helped me like I help her. She was actually my ride for my colonoscopy last year. She wants me to heal from her decisions. She takes full responsibility. I don’t believe that she has dated anyone, although we haven’t talked about it since it wasn’t really either of our business.
I know my worth and I’m not willing to settle for second place. I don’t need to be out in a pedestal but I need to feel like my partner feels that I deserve to treated as well as I treat them.

So if this is to be a "new marriage" and the two of you are to start over, my thought is that you might want to consider that while you have been divorced she was free to date.

You were free to date, too.

If she chose to do so, she would be like any other divorced woman her age who was dating.

If you dated any other woman similarly situated, would you have this same concern - that she had other lovers besides you? Probably not.

Just a thought. This may be something that you should discuss in depth with your counselor. It may be more related to your feelings about the affair than about attempting to reconcile.

5decades.
I agree with everything you said. She has been free to do what she wants. I should not hold it against her but I can’t help but feel like I will. Like it would just be one more stab to my heart. I want to give her a fair shot. The idea of being replaced again is truly agonizing.
Again, I understand that she was free to do whatever she chose. I had the same options but chose not to. I plan on being very clear when we have the talk that I plan on having before this weekend. I don’t want her to be in limbo and I don’t want to be kept in limbo as well.

I'll be absolutely honest. Speaking as a reformed WW, I wouldn't want what you were offering.

I would not have blamed my BH for choosing divorce in response to my infidelity, even years later (29 years later, in our case). I broke us with my decision to cheat, and he had every right to decide our relationship was unfixable. But regardless of his decision, it was my separate work to develop into a person who wanted and deserved authentic love. I did that work, and it was difficult and painful as hell. I came out the other side seeing that if I had valued myself enough before my affair, I would never have had an affair. My crappy self esteem drove my fear of honestly confronting the existing problems and mixed messages in my relationship. Because I was afraid of being alone, I self-medicated with a broken side arrangement that had no potential. My fear trumped my integrity when I decided to cheat, and it trumped my integrity again when I hid behind trickle truth. Only when I let go of the outcome, and realized that my BH and I both deserved agency, was I able to start to become a better person.

If my husband and I divorced, and he said he'd be willing to try again but that that he would never tell me he loved me, that he would see me as tainted if I had had sex after we split, and that my main draw for him was that I was the path of least resistance, a worn out sweatshirt that offered low-effort comfort... well, if I accepted that, then that would suggest that I hadn't really learned anything at all. A person with healthy self esteem shouldn't take that offer. It's better to be alone. And if she's remained so desperate for fragments of your love that she would accept those terms, then I would indeed be concerned about whether you could really trust her. She doesn't have a solid foundation under her feet from which to stand and offer you authenticity.

Lots of good thoughts here.

but I can never love her the way I did before.

You really don’t know that. You just don’t unless it s your life’s mission to make it a self fulfilling prophecy.

It’s the big unknown, NAR. The good news is you don’t have to commit. Try it and see how it goes. Really watch your xWW, and really try to see who she is. Feel what you feel. Contemplate on it. We are the crooked timber of humanity, be gentle with her and yourself.

BSR-- that was a great post that resonates. And an excellent summation of someone "who did the work".

It's possible that Notarunnerup's fWW will feel like time and reconnection will change the deal she is being offered.

Why have you not dated anyone else?

This sounds like an easy option rather than addressing your loneliness. It is a recipe for future affairs. Your BS treated you appallingly but she doesn't deserve a life time of not feeling loved anymore than you do.

After a betrayal your view of love does change. You wake up to the fact humans can and do lie. That love isn't a fairy tale and that relationships are hard work. It doesn't mean you need to suffer a life time of unhappiness rubbing along side each other because it is familiar.

This one had me awake last night. From your post, I’m guessing that the divorce has not been more than three years or so. You are right at the time line where most people are finally starting to heal, but you are not there yet.

Your wife has had some significant issues, and I don’t see that she has done anything to deal with them.

I get you are lonely, but there are other ways to deal other than getting back in a relationship that has many unresolved parts to it.

Finally, you are not going to remarry if she was with someone else. This is unrealistic. That should not be the litmus test. Whether you WANT to be with her for the right reasons is the test.

I’m not seeing it right now. You have never really gotten away from her. She is always around. You have definitely not healed.

Try a period of NC, and yes try to live as a single guy, including dating. That way, you give yourself a look at what a life without her would be. Then you can look at letting her back in with a more balanced view.

BSR, yet another well respected voice on SI. I understand where you are coming from. I dont think what I offer is fair to my ex. I am merely writing what I am capable of giving to her. This could change over time. We did divorce and it is her right to have dated and gone full sex crazy cougar if she wanted. In my mindset right now, it would be too much for me to handle emotionally. I mentioned before that I want, as immature as it sounds, to have been pined for like she did the ex that she cheated with. Like HikingOut stated, my ex is much older now and more mature than she was 26 years ago when we started dating and her affair began. I dont want to just be comfortable with an old sweatshirt. I want what the sweatshirt means to me. I could go get a new one. A more expensive one. One made of softer materials, that dont have the stains and wear an tear. But each of the marks, rips, stains, are part of the life we had together.
I cherished my ex wife. She gave me children that I honestly thought I would never have. They are the most wonderful thing and I am so proud of them. I was so proud of my ex wife too. She is so smart, she has an infectious smile and her laugh is unbelievable. I remember first meeting her and her cute wave to me.
I dont want to just hold on to nostalgia. I dont want my not telling her that I love her to be a punishment but I can see that it could be seen that way. I wonder if I could tell any partner that I love them anymore.
Its not that I am incapable of loving a partner. I think it means something different to me now.
I do know that I will never marry again. The idea of someone feeling shackled to me and vice versa is not appealing. The person I get with can freely walk away or choose to stay without a lengthy break up process.
I think you bring up good points regarding if she would accept the offer as showing she might not be as healthy as she should be. She might be grasping at healing the damage she caused to us.
It is a raw deal. I recognize that. I will apologize to my ex for offering it, but I will be as straightforward as I can about what I feel i am capable of giving her if we proceed. I will also set up Couples Counseling to see how we could proceed.
Please dont think of me as an asshole for my views BSR. I really take notice when your name pops up on here. I got my daughter addicted to Monty Python and the holy grail. We actually went to go see a local play of spamalot.

DayDream, I have not dated for several reasons. First, I havent been well enough to date mentally. I just havent been ready. My mind just wont stop finding reasons whi I shouldnt. Im better now, thank God. Second. The dating world has changed so much since I was young. Everyone is so political and petty. Its a real turn off. Lastly, I have been so busy with my kids. My daughter just left for college and now I only have one to worry about but between hauling him to hockey, band, and girlfriends it doesnt leave alot of time for socializing. My son has Hockey tournaments about every 3 weeks that are out of town. He is working hard to be recognized to hopefully play hockey in college. My ex and I alternate tournaments but she has to take my truck for his gear. You do NOT want hockey gear in your car for any length of time.
Also I guess, I havent been sexually intimate since DDay. Im not sure I can perform in the bedroom. Taking care of myself does not work for me. The desire is there but the ability seems to be out of reach. I have been checked and my Testosterone is good, bordering high. My doctor is willing to prescribe me some blue pills but I dont want my sex life to revolve around scheduling meds.
I have had friends tell me I should just hire someone to have sex. Im not against sex workers, but it sounds gross to me. I would kind of feel like they were doing what my ex wife did to me.
I plan on talking to my ex tomorrow or friday evening. My son has a "thing" he wants to go to and it might be a good time to try to talk alone with her. My kids are aware that we might try to date but they dont need to be privy to whats discussed.

Longsadstory, My ex wife has tried to heal and repair the damage she has done, both to herself and everyone affected. She has been in therapy for years, even during our marriage. She has apologized to my family as well as her own, not to mention our kids. She has a strained relationship with the kids but it is getting better. She has never blamed me but I think that is because she had years to process this and her therapist told her that if she confesses, what steps she should take. I was given a timeline with as much detail as she could provide. Unfortunately AOL was the big thing back then and all of the information was scrubbed due to not being used in over a decade.
I am a pretty straightforward person. I dont generally tell people what they want to hear. Im a strong believer that people may not like what I say but I wont BS them. My kids are very honest as well. My daughter can be brutal but I think that might be common these days for girls. Im not hip enough to really know. My son tends to not have a filter so if your breath stinks dont get near him because he will out you right there. I think that might be from all the "chirping" he does on ice.
I want whoever I date to know upfront what I am offering. Those things may change over time and I dont think its like "Hi, Im NARU and I wont marry you and I dont know if I can even function sexually, but I am interested in dating you" I just feel like I dont want to waste someones time.
Im a middle aged man and while I dont regret marrying my ex because she gave me wonderful kids. I do feel like so many years were wasted thinking I had a loyal girlfriend and wife, when I really did not. I dont want a person to feel like they were misled. That a relationship with me would lead to marriage. I can be just as loyal and great a boyfriend as I was a husband, but I want a person to "choose" to be with me everyday, not becuase of a legal obligation, but because they want to be there.

My doctor is willing to prescribe me some blue pills but I dont want my sex life to revolve around scheduling meds

Such a minor thing, but perhaps helpful. Instead of "blue pill" Viagara (Sildenafil), which must be taken an hour or so ahead of activity, try Cialis (Tadalafil), which you take once a day and leaves you "ready" any time you like. No scheduling at all. It’s also been proven to have significant long term benefits like lower BP and other positive longevity effects.