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I reject responsibility for his beliefs about his own infidelity-related feelings.

I reject the idea that because he doesn’t want to share them, that I must not have created a safe enough space for him.

I have responded with compassion and attempts to comfort him in every instance where he has directly verbalized his feelings to me that I can recall. I can’t make him update his mental model with the data, no matter how consistent the data is. Frustration with the conversational structure, manipulation tactics, secret conversations, and toxic behavior is not the same as not being able to tolerate his feelings, nor is it not wanting to hear them.

I do not control how he interprets my responses. If he comes away from interactions with me or from reading my posts with the exact opposite of what I said/meant/intended, that isn’t necessarily my fault. As I stated, more words are clearly not going to help the situation. I am no longer attempting to convince him that I care about his infidelity-related feelings. If he wants to continue convincing himself that I don’t, I didn’t cause that, and that’s not my problem to solve.

If he pressures me to pivot away from what I planned on doing on a given day based on his moment-to-moment feelings, I will assess 1) whether his grievance is accurate, and 2) whether it’s prudent for me pivot. If the answer to both questions is "no," then I will not pivot. I will maintain my boundaries and do what needs to be done, without self abandoning. I refuse to be manipulated into managing his feelings for him, only to be punished the next day for the thing that got deprioritized. If he interprets that protective boundary as me not caring,
I’m not going to try to convince him otherwise. I didn’t cause that interpretation and it’s not my problem to solve.

If something is clearly bothering him because his whole demeanor has changed, and after asking him ONCE if something is up, he denies that anything is wrong, I will allow him to stew in his feelings. I will not accept responsibility for reverse-engineering them and soothing them if he refuses to talk about them, nor the punishment he doles out for not doing so. I will physically separate myself from him in those moments to keep our moods distinct from one another. I refuse to be violated with that kind of energy. If he interprets that as not caring, I didn’t cause that. That’s not my problem to solve.

If he bottles up his feelings and they start leaking out sideways into normal marital interactions, such that he’s engaging in manipulation tactics, extreme defensiveness, or disproportionate emotional intensity, and/or such that we start having those secret conversations to which I’m neither privy nor consenting, and he denies that there’s anything further going on beneath the surface, I will end the interaction, because I will not accept that kind of treatment. If he interprets that boundary as me not caring or not wanting to hear his feelings, I didn’t cause that. That’s not my problem to solve.

If he wants to twist up reality and the timelines and causal relationships between his feelings and what actually happened, I’ll correct him once, but I will not argue with him about it. I will not gather evidence and cling to Reality anchors that he rejects so vehemently because they are incongruent with the narratives he builds up in his mind. I know what happened and I am letting go of the need to defend it. If that results in unfair perceptions about me as a wife and built up resentment inside him, I did not cause that and it’s not my problem to solve.

My self-worth is no longer tied to his volatile moods and his unreliable perceptions of me.

I have already felt so much better with just implementing the not-pivoting part. The household is being better managed (whether he notices or not.) I feel less stressed. I’ve spent more quality time with my daughter. I started learning jiujitsu, and it’s a good workout. I’ve been eating better. I spend as much time caring for our pets as is necessary without guilt. I’m meeting my work responsibilities better. I’m getting enough sleep. I even got all of my school work submitted on time this week, unlike last semester where I was constantly three weeks behind and stressed out about whether I was going to pass because I kept pivoting every time there was pressure. I still have not made friends, but I’m starting to feel like a whole person for the first time in a very long time.

I have no idea if I have ever responded to you.
This is to explain how I see this forum working. There are thousands and thousands of bs. There are many fewer ws. Bs want to know why and how to survive the worst thing that has ever happened to them. In many cases underneath that pain is rage. "How dare you!" is a pretty common feeling. Into this boiling cauldron is every kind of personality. We only know what has been shared. We do not know the personality of each other. We do, usually, have a pretty good idea of the actual behaviors of the ws because they have been shared, but not who they are.
I got over it by not dealing with it and went on with my life. I do not, and will not, ever know what my ws was up to while traveling other than to know he cheated. There was no affair.
So look at what you are angry about. You have worked very hard to get you and your husband through this so why isn’t ok yet? Suppose you shot him in the leg, shattered it to the point that he had months of pt just to be able to walk. Now every time the weather changes his leg aches. That the best example I can give as to why recovery is not linear. He is going to have good and bad days. Things might trigger him and back to square one he goes.
So I am assuming that you came here for info on how to help him heal and he still is not. Your patience is running out and so you are angry because a huge number very different people responded with suggestions that have not moved the needle very much. It is very much up to you to continue to provide support so beyond that accept that we are not here to put more strain on your relationship. Your bs might use some ideas from here but his personality, and yours, are what determine the outcome.

What I read is "I, I, I, I, I, I..."

I have done all of these things that made ME better. My school work is on time. The chickens are fed in a timely manner. I am studying jujitsu.

Good for you I guess? Is any of that supposed to help the reconciliation?

If the R isn't progressing as fast as YOU think it should, well that's your problem. I make no apologies for being blunt.

The lack of safety is in your expectations.

If you are not going to try and do any of these things you also should release your expectations of what he should or shouldn’t be doing.

I feel a lot of your frustration is in THAT. If you let go of that maybe it will be less overwhelming for you.

And I reject the notion this forum has more impact on him than you do.

I reject taking responsibility when if he reads here and some of the contempt you feel towards him is so clearly conveyed it’s unmistakeable. It’s worse than anything we could say about it.

I can’t help you see that more clearly, so I will stop trying and trust that you are trying to grow and maybe you will get there. I think this marriage makes you deeply unhappy, and maybe your growth is you are seeing that.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:21 PM, Wednesday, September 2nd]

interesting that you needed to use chat GPT as a moderator for the responses to your very aggressive, accusatory post towards us - so you are entitled to dish it, but you can't take it in turn? What about the emotional fragility of those you attacked and blamed here?

It comes across like you may feel some instability around your conception of self, and that leads to this very self-focused perspective where what others do and say filter through this self-preserving lens. And when the internal instability starts to feel threatening, when the outside feedback can't fit through the filter, the threat and blame is externalized to the others.

WB1340,

Good for you I guess? Is any of that supposed to help the reconciliation?

Well, if you're genuinely curious (and I suspect you aren't):

- H is the one who wants the laundry done more often, the house better stocked with food, the living space cleaner, etc. Alright, done.

- H wants me to retain my job so that the inexpensive health insurance benefits we get from it remain available. In order to do that, I need to have something to put in my fitness reports, like educational credits earned, new, relevant skills learned, work-related responsibilities taken on and well-maintained, etc. Okay, done. I'm back in school, I'm learning a martial art, and I'm working. Our health insurance continues.

- H was the one complaining that our daughter does nothing but sit in front of the TV all day. Fine, I'm spending more time with her.

- H wants me to be mentally well, emotionally stable, and keep my body fit. Okay, sure. That means I need to get enough sleep and exercise.

Previously he would have a feeling-- like, "I want her to spend time with me," and if I said, "Oh, but I really need to do this today..." and then he would be hurt and sulk until I agreed to abandon my previous priority and spend the whole weekend with him. Then Monday would roll around, and the house would be a mess, and I'd be behind on laundry, and he'd be stressed about it. So I'd let the child watch TV and play with toys independently so she stays in one room and stops tornado-ing through the house uncleaning as fast as I can clean, and I'd focus on catching up on cleaning and the laundry... But then he would come home and go, "Has she been watching TV all day?" So then on Tuesday I would take her to do something fun, and what would not get done was any household management, homework, or work responsibilities. He would come home, be unhappy about the house, and want to go out to dinner, and if I said, "I need to get my homework done and some things for work..." He would be unhappy about having to stay in and assume that I don't want to spend time with him. If I pivoted to going out for dinner and then had to stay up late to finish my homework before the deadline, he was unhappy that I didn't come to bed because that's triggering for him...He punished me if I didn't pivot (sulking, treating me with less affection, making progressively more negative assumptions about me and harboring resentment, etc.) and then he punished me for deprioritizing whatever needed to be done.

This resulted in me constantly feeling like a failure because he was never pleased with me. Our dynamic became that I'm the hot mess that can't ever seem to get her shit together, and he's the ever-patient, tortured saint that puts up with me. I felt like I was constantly trying to be good enough to "earn" his love, his interest, his affection, his attention... This dynamic made me vulnerable to the advances of a stranger when I was away for work, and because I wasn't planning on having an affair or exerting any effort to attract anyone, it was intoxicating for someone to be showering me with hours and hours of attention and interest and conversation every day, seemingly delighted by me without me having to work for it or be any different than I was. (That is not to say that my husband caused the affair. It was my responsibility to notice that vulnerability and attempt to correct it, rather than choosing to commit infidelity.

But now, correcting that vulnerability is part of my recovery, and part of making sure infidelity never happens again.

So I am not pivoting if his grievance isn't legit and it's not prudent for me to do so. I'm doing what I need to do to be a whole, functional, and recovered person, rather than allowing H's moment-to-moment feelings dictate my priorities and cause dysfunction. I'm uncoupling my self-worth from his perceptions and emotions. I'm no longer fighting him to get him to see Reality and stop filing those inaccurate perceptions of me, that I don't care and that I'm a bad wife and how good of a person is he for tolerating me? Let him feel that way. If he wants a divorce from his "terrible uncaring wife" he can get one. I'm no longer tolerating the toxic behavior, either. I refuse to be punished for not predicting, reverse engineer, and managing his feelings constantly. I'm not sacrificing my healing to cater to his stunted, repressed, emotional processing issues... And would you look at that... things are improving.

I am letting go of any expectations of him. I only control me. So it's going to sound like "I I I I..." for a while.

I'm filing this as further evidence that you guys suck at listening, btw.

I'm filing this as further evidence that you guys suck at listening, btw.

I think maybe you don’t hear what you are telling us.

Over and over in this thread and most of your threads lately are people telling you that we see your growth.

I have affirmed you need to develop your ability not to self abandon.

The reason you hear the rest of it is because you fail to acknowledge it is there.

All the resentments of your marriage is piled up on themselves. You convey a disdain for your husband that is palpable.

We keep trying to tell you about that because you seem to not be conscious to it. I do hear in there maybe you are starting to acknowledge that you enabled the very behaviors that you hate.

But when it comes to your posts, you do have many expectations of him, as recently as the last post you posted in the WS forum where you are basically talking about your expectations that he self regulate in a timeframe you have selected to be appropriate.

All this we fail to listen is us trying to show you where you can grow and you rejecting it because we are not seeing his responsibility, or that you have to grow to not self abandon.

I can affirm you on he probably does carry responsibility for some of the toxicity in your marriage over the years you have been together. I have affirmed you many times that I could not deal with a spouse that is so critical. Point blank, had my husband been that way we couldn’t have made it. My fragility over the years is not that much different than yours.

However, your husband isn’t here to talk to. We only have your posts to respond to.

And while I affirm that you need to not self abandon, you need to be authentic,and see your growth —-the attitude behind that movement, which may be needed because you may be too fragile to get there without hardening—-is going to be the downfall of the thing you claim to want which is reconciliation.

I think the railing you are doing is you are unprepared to move from self abandonment without abandoning him. The two things can co-exist. You can’t fully release your responsibility for his state while taking accountability for the damage your affairs have caused.

You are growing, it’s awkward to do with a lot of people coaching from their comfortable seats. I get it. But what you fail to hear in your listening is we are trying to help you towards nurturing yourself and him, I don’t think you have the bandwidth right now, or the inclination, until you can release your resentment. Maybe this detachment you keep describing is what you need in order to do that.

At some point, you will need to forgive him, take in your contributions to this dynamic in order to be in a head space to bring some of the nurturing needed for reconciliation. You think you have it, but it’s all logic and no heart.

Grow that heart space for you and it will form a fountain in which you have it for others. You are burned out, and need to take a break from it and I think maybe that’s what I wasn’t hearing in your narrative. I don’t think this marriage will survive without it, but know it’s getting better for you and not him for some period of time here—-and that’s why I keep stating concern if reconciling is what you really want or not. Process the resentment and maybe it will be, but it’s going to also take change that he has less bandwidth for than you do at the moment.

And that’s why we keep trying to get you to address the infidelity and personal change first and put away what he needs to change right now. But you are drowning in all of it, it’s too much and I think that’s where things need to take a step back.

It takes 3-5 years to reconcile, and these are some of the reasons why.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:30 PM, Wednesday, September 2nd]

Your interpretation is inaccurate.

I think you could get across your frustrations if you use bullet points and keep the explanations short. I am having difficulty processing what your actual complaints are because your anger is getting in the way.
We would like to help if we can. It might not be possible but look at the wisdom on this site. It is remarkable. Use it when you can.

look at the wisdom on this site. It is remarkable.

Opinions vary.

I hear you loud and clear. I will stop wasting both of our time.

A few questions, if you don't mind.

1) Do you still want your marriage?

2) Do you think you struggle with anger management?

3) What have you learned here?

Be mad Morbs, but it is not serving you.

I do not think you were ready for the accountability that SI requires. That is why you kept starting over with new accounts. You keep expecting this community to bend to you, appease you, tell you what you want to hear, and not what you need to hear. That is never going to happen here.

Most people who find SI useless make their exit. No one is holding you here. No one is forcing you to seek our input. But you have not tolerated a single piece of feedback that did not fit your narrative. You cannot put that on us. You cannot shame the community for refusing to mirror your distortions.

You say poor listening has a cost. I agree. It does. But the cost here is your own refusal to hear anything that challenges your preferred story. You are not being harmed by SI. You are being confronted by it.

If you want a space that will validate your perspective without friction, weekly IC would serve you better. You would get more out of that than trying to reshape an entire community around your discomfort.

1) Do you still want your marriage?

I don't want the toxic version. I want the one I'm building.

2) Do you think you struggle with anger management?

Yes, but I feel like that's just going to become yet another lens through which people view me.

3) What have you learned here?

This place was helpful when I was new to reconciliation/early in the process. I learned what was normal for a BS to experience after infidelity. I learned that Reality anchors don't help everyone. I learned what I needed to do to recover and fix myself. I learned that I don't have to become incapable of cheating, but unwilling. While here, I realized how dysfunctional my marriage was, and I've had to adjust my recovery/reconciliation approach.

I don't think this site is very useful once a WS gets the basics down pat, or when a WS is facing toxic behavior at home. (Toxic behavior is continually excused or dismissed as the WS being an unreliable narrator/wanting to avoid the consequences of their infidelity.) I don't think most people here are able to figure out when a WS has moved beyond the basics and needs different advice or direction; they're continually viewed through the lens of being avoidant, prone to shifting blame, unable to understand their BS's pain, unwillingness to take accountability impatience, etc. Everything they say gets filtered through those lenses in addition to the BS' feelings, and that produces misunderstanding and consequently, occasionally bad advice.

I handle disagreement just fine. People often disagree with premises I did not actually make.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 6:12 PM, Wednesday, September 2nd]

I am going to posit a description. You and your husband were having problems in your marriage and at some point you had an affair. The problems in your marriage did not go away and the affair just added to them. IC was just suggested. It might be exactly what you need because you need someone that can hear you and give you feedback immediately based on what subject you were talking about that day. If your bs is using some toxic behavior, and when you confront it, you accused of being the bad guy then both of you need serious IC. Since we only hear your side of things on this site, although he might have been on here and I don’t know it, I do see from your descriptions that you are feeling manipulated. In that case you might really need to look at the toxicity between the two of you to see if there’s a way around it. If you’re always the screaming bad guy and he never is that might be some gaslighting. What this site does, or tries very hard to do, is get you to look at how y’all got the way you got, and how to get out, and move forward, and how to bring your partner along with you. It might be that your partner is stuck and never can move along with you. We don’t know that because we don’t know him and honestly, we don’t know you either.

GTM

In so many ways I agree with you that people often don’t listen to what is being said or asked, but ask you to consider if you too might be guilty of that. I know that it’s something I need to be careful about doing.

One very common argument point on this site is the validity of reconciliation, what it actually is and if it’s attainable.
One thing I believe is that when we decide to reconcile a marriage after infidelity there is a lot of work that BOTH partners need to commit to. I think that simply because of what caused the infidelity the burden of the initial work falls on the WS. Like… I believe in radical honesty in a marriage, and that R isn’t possible without commitment, yet while I expect the WS to commit to radical accountability and total NC with AP I also expect the BS to keep the path to divorce open.
However… at some point… maybe 4-6 months after a commitment to reconciliation, if the BS still has his divorce attorney on speed-dial or is holding back when the WS has been honest, open, accountable… well… IMHO that’s not reconciliation. At some point you need to piss or get off the pot.

Infidelity hits the BS hard. It wrecks so many things, maybe more so in a man. Self-worth, self-value, family values, self-esteem, masculinity… It takes time and effort to deal with these issues, Much longer than 4-6 months, but a BS that is truly working towards reconciliation is aware of the issues and has some sort of plan on how to deal with them.

I have seen numerous instances here on SI where the WS might be doing their best to deal with their issues, and seemingly honestly and correctly. There is self-awareness, understanding of the pain, cause, consequence… and yet the BS seems to be holding on to the infidelity-situation.
I think this can be about control. Its about having a higher moral standpoint and using that to control the WS. It’s fear about experiencing again the pain.

I think that based on a lot you share you have done a lot to improve yourself.
This isn’t your first presence on this site, and this one you use now is a lot… well… healthier… than your past presences.
I think you have done a lot in an attempt to reconcile your marriage, but that maybe your husband isn’t too keen on making things better than they might be right now. Maybe he has some sense of comfort or safety in keeping you at some emotional distance. If so, well that’s on him. But so is your decision to remain in a stagnant marriage.

I think couples – infidelity or not, newly married or celebrating their 30th year – need to sit down and be clear on what they want, and be in agreement. Not single-sided, but rather the discussion that starts with "I want to retire at 50" (or whatever it is that is mentioned) ends in "WE want to retire at 50", followed by a plan on how to reach that goal. To stick to that example: if this is something you two decided as a couple, then he couldn’t go buy a new car the next day, under the excuse that since you had an affair he’s entitled to it.

Morbs,

I am probably what they call a super-empath.

Always trying to please. Always trying to fix. Highly tuned into the moods/feelings of others. Adjusting my needs to accommodate others. Apologizing for things I didn't do. Living in a constant state of anticipating other's needs. From your posts, it sounds like you may have similar traits.

I have become aware of how damaging that behavior has been for me. I can experience intense anger and resentment at times but, when it comes down to it, who am I really angry at? While I would like to take it out on my WH, I don't. That's on me and I have the power to change it.

It sounds like you are trying to deal with too many issues at once. Your anger and resentments towards your H are getting in the way of your attempts at reconciliation. Wasn't that the reason you gave for having an A in the first place?

I can see where IC would be extremely helpful for you whether your M survives this or not. Your pain and anger are palpable. Mixed with shame and guilt it becomes toxic.

You can disagree with SI. You can decide that you’ve gotten as much value as you can get from this site and that it no longer has much use for you.

But it’s still not SI’s fault that your reconciliation efforts aren’t working out as quickly or as successfully as you would like.

If I misunderstand someone, I hope they offer clarification, and I try my best to update my mental model of what they mean accordingly. I often ask follow up questions, and check to see if I can summarize what they meant accurately. I care about what they actually mean, and I take my responsibility as a listener seriously. There can be no productive conversation without mutual understanding, after all.

I don't immediately go "I understood you just fine; you just can't handle disagreement!" or "If I'm not getting what you mean, it's your fault for not saying it better!"

I don't know whether my H will change and begin to express and process his feelings in a healthy way. Communicating that I want that has not produced it. I think (hope) that the changes I'm making on my part will make the situation tolerable even if he doesn't. He may not like my changes and may choose to leave. He may not like them and choose to stay. But I think if I can successfully implement my changes, I will be okay either way. And if it's the latter... Well then our family stays together, I don't have to rearrange my life and figure out financial independence, and we get to enjoy it when times are good. (Because they often are.)

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 6:03 PM, Wednesday, September 2nd]

1) Do you still want your marriage?

I don't want the toxic version. I want the one I'm building.

Replace the "I" with "We" and tell me if there's a difference.

I understand what you're trying to do. My marriage was a bit toxic as well. My tendencies to avoid conflict and build walls clashed spectacularly with my ex-wife's tendencies towards codependency. You know what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?

Building a new relationship cannot be done on your terms alone. It takes two to tango.

2) Do you think you struggle with anger management?

Yes, but I feel like that's just going to become yet another lens through which people view me.

Too late, friend. Those of us who have welcomed you and tried to help, support and guide you, are already well aware. It's why I didn't take offense to your original post in this thread and why I've no intention of defending this community (your anger won't change my love for SI in the slightest).

I disagree with your assessment of this site's usefulness on any level. And honestly, Morbs, while you may not see the same value as others, you're still here, still engaging, and I'm fairly certain you're not leaving any time soon. I think you've found a home here. I think most of those who keep on trying want to see you succeed, become the best possible version of yourself, and hope you two can get through this and find peace and happiness on the other side.

Are we perfect? Nope.
Do we have all the answers? Nope.
Do we deserve your ire?